3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[Al_in_Va]

Cecil PWV, my Power Pro also has the SINGLE 120 volt outlet and a single 240 volt outlet, and it will NOT put out all the rated output through its ONLY 120 volt outlet. Dont know how Professor 95 explains that or where the other phase is going, but there is NO duplex 120 receptacle on my Power Pro. Look at my previous post and the tests by GUY 48975(?), and then decide for yourself, but my advice would be to NOT buy the Power Pro if you plan to use it to power the air conditioning. I figured it had to be putting out the full output through the Single 120 receptacle and that is why I bought it. Dont make the same mistake. Al in VA.

[cecilpwv]

My 1st post to this thread, please excuse stilted typing, I'm using a thumbpad. Thanks to all on this thread. Today I was at PepBoys in Columbus OH. The PowerPro 3500 there has a 240v outlet and only a single (not duplex) 120v outlet.

Could it be that all gen power is available to the 120v outlet? Please tell me quick, it is hot here and I will buy this gen immediately if I can get past this issue.

[headhunter37]

QUOTE: If visitors and contributors read back over the initial info in this forum, they will find that the only Chinese generators that we know of on this forum that will allow full current to be drawn from a single 120 outlet are those in the family made by Jung Dong (a.k.a. ELM3000, Wildfire, Harbor Freight, etc.). Others require reconfiguring the gen head wiring to achieve parallel circuitry.

I'm looking to get into a gen to occasionally run my AC, is there one available at harbor freight that will allow full current to be drawn from a single 120 outlet, or do I need to have an ELM3000 shipped?

Please advise. Thanks

[professor95]

Al in Va wrote:

In response to the post by NM Desert Rat, I have a Power Pro 3500 from Pep Boys also. I thought it was doing OK at first as it ran the AC. Then I got a voltage meter and let it run for a longer time and found the voltage gradually went down until I cut it off when it got to 104-105 volts and the generator motor sounded like it was "surging". I recently got a friend to bring a Fluke ammeter home from work and checked the generator output. It was showing 2.3 amps with just the converter on. Put on the AC and it was showing 14-15 amps. That was all it would do and the voltage drop started. I am very disappointed as I checked the manual before buying it and the manual says 25amps/120 volts. It only does about half that. Think I will have to have a talk with Wen about that. Dont think I will try to rewire it. May not be worth the effort. Al in Va

Aparently we have come full circle in this thread? IMHO, your PowerPro is doing exactly what it is designed to do. That being to provide full wattage split between two separate 120 volt outlets - each outlet gets 1/2 of the total rated 120 volt amperage available.

If visitors and contributors read back over the initial info in this forum, they will find that the only Chinese generators that we know of on this forum that will allow full current to be drawn from a single 120 outlet are those in the family made by Jung Dong (a.k.a. ELM3000, Wildfire, Harbor Freight, etc.). Others require reconfiguring the gen head wiring to achieve parallel circuitry.

On the issue of temperature vs. current and voltage, Alvinc did a heck of a good job explaining the relationship in his post. I might also add that according to literature and tables that I have, a rise in ambient temperature from 85 degrees F to 177 degrees F in the generator head calls for a reduction in current by 43% of the rating at 85 degrees. In layman's terms - resistance of the conductors in the generator will increase with a temperature rise, this will create more heat that will lead to an even higher temperature rise in the generator that will lead to even more resistance and eventually the smoke will come out of the generator wires and it will not work anymore! (visit http://www.manbottle.com/humor/The_magic_of_Smoke.htm for more detail on smoke)

[MrWizard]

Al in Va wrote:
In response to the post by NM Desert Rat, I have a Power Pro 3500 from Pep Boys also. I thought it was doing OK at first as it ran the AC. Then I got a voltage meter and let it run for a longer time and found the voltage gradually went down until I cut it off when it got to 104-105 volts and the generator motor sounded like it was "surging". I recently got a friend to bring a Fluke ammeter home from work and checked the generator output. It was showing 2.3 amps with just the converter on. Put on the AC and it was showing 14-15 amps. That was all it would do and the voltage drop started. I am very disappointed as I checked the manual before buying it and the manual says 25amps/120 volts. It only does about half that. Think I will have to have a talk with Wen about that. Dont think I will try to rewire it. May not be worth the effort. Al in Va.

there is always the posibility it needs to be adjusted, then again maybe your A/C unit is low on freon and has high head pressure

[guy48065]

Al,
From my tests of the PowerPro 3500 back on P. 49:

My test was as follows:
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/mburnette/generator/pp3500.htm
I started the gen with no load and the voltage was 123V and 62Hz.
At 12Amps the voltage was 114.1V.
At 19Amps it was 104V and 60.7Hz
At 20Amps we're down to 101V amd 60.4Hz
The most load I applied was 21A and the volts were down to 98V so I didn't see any point in continuing the test.

The 3500W rating is the combined output of both 110V phases so 15-20 amps off one phase is good. Maybe not good enough for running AC + fridge + MW, etc. without mods but it meets specs.

Al in Va wrote:
In response to the post by NM Desert Rat, I have a Power Pro 3500 from Pep Boys also. I thought it was doing OK at first as it ran the AC. Then I got a voltage meter and let it run for a longer time and found the voltage gradually went down until I cut it off when it got to 104-105 volts and the generator motor sounded like it was "surging". I recently got a friend to bring a Fluke ammeter home from work and checked the generator output. It was showing 2.3 amps with just the converter on. Put on the AC and it was showing 14-15 amps. That was all it would do and the voltage drop started. I am very disappointed as I checked the manual before buying it and the manual says 25amps/120 volts. It only does about half that. Think I will have to have a talk with Wen about that. Dont think I will try to rewire it. May not be worth the effort. Al in Va.

[alvinc]

The rated capacity of any electrical generator will be de-rated as the temperature of the windings rises. This applies to alternators in hot engine bays, generators whether in open or enclosed, and hydro-electrict power house generators.

Typical cold amp ratings are at 25C (77F). Finding de-rating information about alternators is hard because no-one seems to want to talk about it. The de-rating could be as high 20%, or higher, when the temperature reaches 100C (212F).

There is also a loss with increase of altitude by both the engine and the alternator windings. Thinner air means less efficient engine and less efficient winding cooling. Industrial generators actually specify this info....typical: 3% per 18F above 77F, and 1.3% per 328 ft over 656 ft. Example: a 3500 Watt generator running in the shade with outside temp of 113F at 1610 ft would be derated by 6 x 3.9 = 23% or only 2695 watts.

Onan rates the Marquis Gold deratings at 3.5% for each 1000 ft above 5000 ft, and no derating for temperature below 120F. Pretty conservative. Knowing the desire for good numbers, I bet the cheaper generators are rated generously. http://www.onan.com/pdf/rv/a-1425.pdf

Imagine the difference of taking an open frame generator and adding insulation, or a box, around it.

For the most dependability, buy a generator that is designed to be in enclosure.

OT comment: A friend of mine moved to Denver, from Calif, and had to upgrade the CPU cooling on his computer (he's a gamer and runs his stuff hard).

[Capt-Ron]

Well I did it again....sold my PowerPro 3500 to my uncle here in Iowa. Never even plugged the camper into it and it had been run less than 10 minutes. He liked the heck out of it and doesn't have Pep Boys here so I sold it to him for what I had in it.

Still have the Hondas and have run them non-stop while on the road. The are in the back of the truck and I run the A/C in my 5vr so that when we stop in a truck stop for the night it's already cool inside. Also the cats won't get overheated and I have power in the truck for my laptop.

Probably will not buy any more of the Chinese generators because my old back can't handle the weight. Shouldn't have bought the 3 that I did but after reading this thread I just couldn't pass up the bargin. I have demonstrated these genertors to hundreds of people and seen about half of them buy one for their use. All were amazed at how quiet they are and the price is just too good to pass on. For a while we had a problem with availability but that seems to be resolved although the price did increase $20. I see however, the price in Minnesota is still $299.99.

I'll still read the new posts here and participate if I can pass on any of the experience that I learned.

Capt Ron

[youth4him]

Has anyone had ANY problems at campgrounds with the Elim as far as noise and the neighbors go? I have the enclosure, which really cuts the sound, but if it's 100 degrees, not sure I want to push the temps, so would like a little more confidence in the standard noise output.

Thanks.

[Clark_W__Griswo]

We had power problems at the campground this weekend due to the excessive heat and the ELIM 3000 took over and didnt miss a beat. We were having power surges and breakers were kicking off. I started up the genny and it worked great. The AC ran great. The kids watched a movie and everybody was happy! I am so glad I had it to use.

I do have a question regarding power problems. It was causing my compressor to make a noise (when hooked to shore power). It was still blowing cold air, but I was concerned that this could do permanent damage to the compressor.(low amps?) When I was plugged the camper into the genny the compressor ran fine (w/o noise). My next door neighbor has the exact same AC unit as me and his compressor did not do this. Has anyone else experienced this problem?

They are saying it may reach 100 today here in beautiful Appalachia! Is it Fall yet?

[Al_in_Va]

In response to the post by NM Desert Rat, I have a Power Pro 3500 from Pep Boys also. I thought it was doing OK at first as it ran the AC. Then I got a voltage meter and let it run for a longer time and found the voltage gradually went down until I cut it off when it got to 104-105 volts and the generator motor sounded like it was "surging". I recently got a friend to bring a Fluke ammeter home from work and checked the generator output. It was showing 2.3 amps with just the converter on. Put on the AC and it was showing 14-15 amps. That was all it would do and the voltage drop started. I am very disappointed as I checked the manual before buying it and the manual says 25amps/120 volts. It only does about half that. Think I will have to have a talk with Wen about that. Dont think I will try to rewire it. May not be worth the effort. Al in Va.

[NM_Desert_Rat]

I have a PowerPro 3500. It will run the AC but not with ref at the same time. I am pulling off of the duplex outlet. My AC has a 20A breaker, but can't find electrical spec. It seems that the unit should be able to power AC and ref at the same time. Given that, MrWizard posted these instruction on p. 48, to allow getting full power from the PowerPro 3500:
~~~
getting into the wiring connections and disconnect the white wire from the red wire

hook the br wire & red wire togethere for one leg

and hook the white wire and blu wire togethere for the other leg

this gives you 110 volts across the circuit at full amperage

you would have to disconnect the 220 outlet and install a 20 amp or 30 amp 110 outlet

NOTE: this would be 110 across this circuit ..there is NO bonded/grounded neutral

the plug will read aprox 55 volts to ground/frame from either side of the plug/ either leg

a voltage & phasing check/scope it.. would be advisable before and after doing this

with automatic electronic voltage regulation, this should be a quality generator head
~~~
After searching this thread, I (1) can't find where anyone has actually made this mod, (2) am not sure if it is necessary after all to put the windings in parallel, that full power of the unit perhaps is available off of one winding.

If anyone has made this mod, what were the results? How exactly was the mod made (inside the unit vs. in plug wiring)? Did you change the breaker? Did you use the 4 prong outlet?

It appears that perhaps the only internal mod requred is separating the R and W wiring, that the rest can be made in a "custom" adapter cable using the supplied 4 pring plug and a 50A RV dogbone.

Thanks in advance,

Desert

[Dave___Debbie_S]

I too ordered an Elim 3000 recently direct from Elim; recieved it promptly, and like others, some of the crankcase oil had leaked out in shipping. Wiped it down & it started just fine. The recoil started didn't engage properly, so called Tracey at Elim. She immediately shipped a new recoil starter.

To get all the output to my 30amp 110 RV plug, I purchashed an adapter that plugs into both of the 110 20amp outlets & provides the 30amp female. I'm extremely pleased with the $300 generator, especially since I was going to buy a much more expensive one until I found this forum & read all the input.

[guy48065]

Yes. Elim is in Buffalo, NY and they have a few dealers across the border in Ontario. Contact them for the list.
http://www.eliminternational.com/index.htm

gouldc wrote:
Any idea if the Elm 3000 can be sourced in Canada?

[youth4him]

You can buy them from Ebay, you'll have to check on the shipping though. I got mine through wildfire motors. They also sell direct.