3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[toprudder]

MELM wrote:
I didn't want to take this off topic, but I saw that the generators might be running a little slow and causing a problem with the ferroresonant converter charging, and an adjustment of the speed could correct that. There are still quite a few of those converters in use.

Well, I may just have to hook up my old converter to the generator in my camper. I'm curious to know if the low rpm was the problem.

[jeebs08]

So, I just purchased the "RV" edition of the Champion. It is very loud. Does anyone have any advice on how to muffle the sound? Do they make mufflers to attach to the existing one?

[MELM]

The earliest references I've found for them is that the ferroresonant converters were used in some trailers in the '60's. They basically regulate the output voltage to a constant value (13.8 volts DC for the converters common in RV's) and do a fair job. They've been out of production for 2 or 3 years now.

The PR for them was/is "the full output is available for charging the batteries". Sounds good, better than the low charge rates of the linear converters, except... With the fixed max voltage, the charge rate falls rapidly as the battery charges; and these take 3 or 4 days to fully charge a battery.

I didn't want to take this off topic, but I saw that the generators might be running a little slow and causing a problem with the ferroresonant converter charging, and an adjustment of the speed could correct that. There are still quite a few of those converters in use.

Mel

[professor95]

I believe a ferroresonant supply has large capacitors that "tune" it for the operating frequency.

Definately. You can see these capacitors in the schematics available on the site MELM referenced.

The entire transformer circuit is designed like a LC (inductive/capacitive)band pass filter.

The term ferro is referring to the type of core used in the transformer (usually ferrite, a mixture of iron and ceramic particles) that give it a very high permeability. Thus, the combination of the coil's "Q" and the value of the capacitor make the band pass narrow in respect to a simple iron core transformer.

It is just that I have not encountered them at such low frequencies (60Hz) and was surprised that they were being used in RV converters. They are not voltage or current sensitive devices and since line frequencies are pretty stable they seem unnecessary.

Of course, I never worked on cash registers :).

Just goes to show you no matter how smart you might think you are there is always something else out there to learn than makes you feel dumb.

But, I still fail to see the point of using one at 60Hz.......
Guess they don't either since they no longer make them.

Nuff said? Guess it is time to get back to Chinese generator questions and trivia.

This one got tossed my way in a private e-mail this morning. I have to share it.

Everone loves to bash Chinese generators, The Honda EU3000 has the GX200 motor in it, Guess what motor this Honda plant in China makes, plus a few more models.

[http://www.honda.com.cn/product/general/general_1.htm

[toprudder]

professor95 wrote:
This is interesting. I visited the site as MELM suggested. I am surprised to see the term "Ferro-Resonant" used in the same sentence as 60Hz. Normally, ferro-resonant transformers are only used in much higher frequency applications. In fact, I don't ever recall encountering a true ferro-resonant transformer in a 60 Hz linear power supply. But, according to the Parallax site, they must exist.

I believe a ferroresonant supply has large capacitors that "tune" it for the operating frequency.

Years ago I performed circuit board repair on cash registers, and one of the registers I worked on had a ferroresonant power supply used to charge an internal 12v sealed lead-acid battery. It did a decent job of regualting the voltage, and also did a decent job of filtering out some of the bad junk that could come in with the AC.

[professor95]

The ferroresonant converters are very sensitive to frequency. From the FAQ page on the Parallax site:

This is interesting. I visited the site as MELM suggested. I am surprised to see the term "Ferro-Resonant" used in the same sentence as 60Hz. Normally, ferro-resonant transformers are only used in much higher frequency applications. In fact, I don't ever recall encountering a true ferro-resonant transformer in a 60 Hz linear power supply. But, according to the Parallax site, they must exist.

As a result of this concept, I decided to conduct a little experiment. I selected a Radio Shack 12.6 volt CT transformer out of my junque box. This is a rather broad band transformer typical of linear power supplies. It is, according to specs, designed to accept 120 volts at 60 Hz.

I hooked the transformer up "backwards" (input on the secondary) and used a function generator to pop a 60 Hz sine wave at one volt peak into the transformer. I connected the O'scope to the other end and observed the voltage at 60 Hz input. It was right at 10 VAC peak, which is what I expected.

I then lowered the frequency to 46 Hz and rechecked the output voltage to assure I still had 1 volt peak going into the transformer. The O'scope continued to show 10 volts.

So, I cranked it up to 70 Hz, again checking to be sure I still had 1 volt peak going into the transformer. No change on the O'scope.

Just for the heck of it, I lowered the frequency even more, it wasn't until I hit 25 Hz that the output voltage began to fall. On the other end, there was no change in voltage until I passed 300 Hz, at which point we once again began to see a voltage decline due to the "Q" of the transformer.

What is my point? Specifically, "normal" transformers designed for 60 Hz operation are not going to be affected by small frequency changes from gasoline generators as far as output voltage goes. But, since this so called ferro-resonant device does apparently exist for 60 Hz operation, it probably will have an impact on voltage output if frequency changes. What is a mystery to me is why would any company go to the expense to manufacturer such a narrow banded transformer for a linear power supply? The space savings are minisule and the increase in efficiency is really not necessary for such a device.

Just my humble opinion........


46 Hz


60 Hz


70 Hz

[triplej]

Gary O wrote:
Will the newer Pepboys 3500 Power Pro with the voltage selector switch be able to run a 15000btu air conditioner?

I used one this past weekend. It ran my 15000 btu ac with no problems. It is pretty loud though. I am thinking of making a box to put around it or something to muffle the sound.

[Gary_O]

Will the newer Pepboys 3500 Power Pro with the voltage selector switch be able to run a 15000btu air conditioner?

[MELM]

The ferroresonant converters are very sensitive to frequency. From the FAQ page on the Parallax site:

"Q. My DC voltage monitor reports that my converter output voltage changes when I am running my generator. Why does this happen?
A. The ferro-resonant type converter is frequency sensitive and should only be operated with the incoming AC electricity at 60 Hz. When operating from generator the “genset” frequency should be checked and if necessary adjusted to operate between 60 to 63 Hz."

You can see the schematic for them here: Ferroresonant Converters. The model numbers apply to Triad Utrad/Magnetek/Parallax convverters (name changes). There were a rair number of these installed over the years.

Possibly one of the reasons that RV mounted generators are set for 62-63 Hz when under light or no load and checked for 60 Hz under full load.

Mel

[toprudder]

professor95 wrote:
Hummm........ very interesting. I wish I had your old stuff to do some further investigating.

I am curious though, when you were testing with the Variac, did you have a load equivalent to normal useage connected to the Magnetek? That could make a big difference in the output voltage readings you obtained.

The load was a 75% (approximate) discharged 12v battery. When I was using the variac, I was monitoring the current.

I still have it if there is anything in particular you would like for me to try. One thing I have not yet done is to hook up my o'scope to look at the generator output. I have also adjusted the generator since then, the frequency was a little low at 58 Hz.

[professor95]

I had a similar problem with an old Magnetek converter. I suspected it was low voltage that was causing the problem but, in fact, it must have been related to either the waveform or the line frequency.

After I replaced the Magnetek with a solid-state converter, I experimented with the Magnetek and a variac. I could lower the input voltage to 90v and the DC output remained fairly constant (in fact it raised just slightly). However, when running from my generator, at over 110v, the output dropped to less than 12.6v. I measured all the voltages (AC and DC) with a Fluke RMS meter.

The Magnetek is a ferroresonant design. I believe it was either reacting to the fundamental line frequency being a little low, or to the waveform distortions (other frequencies and harmonics) riding on the AC waveform.

Hummm........ very interesting. I wish I had your old stuff to do some further investigating.

I am curious though, when you were testing with the Variac, did you have a load equivalent to normal useage connected to the Magnetek? That could make a big difference in the output voltage readings you obtained.

[professor95]

Professor95

When I use to work in commercial sound systems our technicians would sometimes test new amplifiers with a specific load using a series of resistors. This was to find if the transformer (excessive heating) or other pieces of the unit would stand up.

Question, can such a load be put on 120V output of my generator? What would be the size of the resistors? And how would they be straps together.

Oh yes, I hope that I'm on the right track. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks

Assuming this is something you actually want to experiment with, you can drop back to the basic elements of Ohm’s law to do the necessary calculations. To help my freshmen EE students remember the basics of Ohm’s law, I use a slightly modified formula. I tell them to remember VCR where V= Voltage, C=Current (in amperes) and R = Resistance (normally we use EIR or VIR). This is expressed in one of three ways, depending on what value we are looking for. V=C*R, C=V/R or R=V/C.

To convert watts (power) to amperes and back, I tell them to think of a big piece of PIE. In this case P= Power in Watts, I=current in Amperes and R=Resistance. Formulas are P=I*E, I=P/E or E=P/I. (and for those who know all this, yes there are many more formulas we can use – these are just the basic ones we need right now)

We want to load a generator to its maximum rated output of 3,000 watts at 110 volts to see if it really will meet the advertised specifications. So, using the PIE formula, we would take the rated continuous power in watts (3,000) and divide it by the measured light load voltage of 110 (110VAC is an example, actual values will vary). This will give us a current of 27.27 amps.

Now it its time to switch to the VCR formula to find the actual resistance needed to develop the desired current flow at 110 volts. Take the voltage (110) and divide it by the amperage (27.27) and we come up with 4.034 Ohms.

You are going to need a load resistor capable of dissipating at least 3,000 watts of power (heat energy) with a resistance of 4 Ohms to run our tests. If we want to be precise, we can get this resistance by taking an old electric heat pump heating coil and cutting it to a length of 4 ohms. You will need to support the cut coil so it is insulated from surrounting objects to prevent heat damage and electrical shock. Clamp your test leads to the end of the coil with metal crimps like used on grounding wires in residential applications. Wire nuts will probably not work here.

Typically, folks turn to electric resistance heating appliances for the load resistor. Most often they will grab two 1,500 watt rated space heaters and just plug them into the outlet saying, “This is close enough for Government work,” and letting it go at that.

The quirk in this method is the resistance element will not have the same value cold as it does when hot (resistance will increase when heated) so some mathematical juggling will be needed to find the exact value of the cold load. You can measure this resistance change with an AC “Amp Clamp” meter while testing and adjust the resistance according to the amperage expected in the formula.

Big question….. What does this tell us?

Well, for one thing, can the generator engine sustain the load within the prescribed voltage range? Typically, we should not see a voltage drop between a light load (100-300 watts) and full load (3,000 watts)greater than 5%. On a generator putting out 114 VAC under a 300 watt load, the voltage should not drop more than 6 volts. Thus, if the output voltage is lower than 108 VAC on this particular generator, we are really pushing the envelope.

Ideally, we should also be monitoring engine speed with a tachometer as well. If the engine cannot sustain a speed within 50 rpm below the light load value, we have a problem. (this is assuming a 3,600 RPM light load engine crankshaft speed) Small engine tachometers are not to terribly expensive and can be purchased at most decent sized repair shops that stock "self service" parts and tools or go-cart speciality stores.

Lastly, we need to look at the temperature rise in the generator itself. This is best done with a contact thermometer or a non-contact infrared thermometer. I do not have any hard and fast minimum or maximum specifications to use, but from the seat of my pants, I would become extremely concerned about any condition that caused the temperature to exceed 90 degrees C (194 F) inside the generator. At that point, I would call it lights off and quit! (note: generator temperature, NOT engine temperature)

So, if you are adventureous and extremely anal about advertised specifications actually living up to their stated values, here is ONE way to see if you are on track or not.

[cmg3500]

boucher1 wrote:
Professor95

When I use to work in commercial sound systems our technicians would sometimes test new amplifiers with a specific load using a series of resistors. This was to find if the transformer (excessive heating) or other pieces of the unit would stand up.

Question, can such a load be put on 120V output of my generator? What would be the size of the resistors? And how would they be straps together.

Oh yes, I hope that I'm on the right track. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks

You can use resistive loads,like small electric space heaters,Or like I used,& 5KW heating element from a central home furnace(Used 1/2 of it=2500 watts).I don't know of a "resister" that can handle the voltage & load of the generator?Maybe someone else on here knows?

[boucher1]

Professor95

When I use to work in commercial sound systems our technicians would sometimes test new amplifiers with a specific load using a series of resistors. This was to find if the transformer (excessive heating) or other pieces of the unit would stand up.

Question, can such a load be put on 120V output of my generator? What would be the size of the resistors? And how would they be straps together.

Oh yes, I hope that I'm on the right track. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks

[toprudder]

larryslocum wrote:
...When hooked up to external power or to the internal generator of my Vogue Class A, I get 13 to 14 volts through my converter (at the battery) depending on battery charge (8D). When hooked up to my Champion 3500 generator (early model) I never get more than 12.3 volts no matter what the battery charge. Needless to say, this is killing my battery. Is this a sine wave problem (dirty or square) or could it be related to the outlet plug issue discussed here so well?...

I had a similar problem with an old Magnetek converter. I suspected it was low voltage that was causing the problem but, in fact, it must have been related to either the waveform or the line frequency.

After I replaced the Magnetek with a solid-state converter, I experimented with the Magnetek and a variac. I could lower the input voltage to 90v and the DC output remained fairly constant (in fact it raised just slightly). However, when running from my generator, at over 110v, the output dropped to less than 12.6v. I measured all the voltages (AC and DC) with a Fluke RMS meter.

The Magnetek is a ferroresonant design. I believe it was either reacting to the fundamental line frequency being a little low, or to the waveform distortions (other frequencies and harmonics) riding on the AC waveform.