3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[wtd1]

These Chinese generators depend on gravity feed from a tank at a higher elevation. Also, the needle and seat in the carburetor is not designed to work with the pressures developed by most automotive electric in-line fuel pumps.

Getting the fuel out of a top valve marine tank into the genny will present a challenge.

I removed my Champion from the frame, removed the gas tank and front panel and mounted the engine/generator in a compartment on my motorhome. Rewired the outlets/breakers to new outlet boxes mounted on the compartment wall and mounted a remote gas tank some distance away on the frame ... use a low pressure Purolator fuel pump from Kragen (I think the model is PRO-4) which puts out 1.5-3# pressure. I tried one that I had laying around first, (pressure unknown) but the pressure was to high and stuck the needle in the seat. The low pressure one works fine, runs about 40 bucks.

I use two 100 cfm fans installed in a hole cut in the rear wall (behind the muffler) of the compartment and run it with the baggage door open and it runs just slightly warm to the touch out here in the desert (100 degrees+ outside). They're 12V fans and were $5 a pop at a surplus website.
They cool better if blowing out rather than in ...

If you try this at home, don't be tempted to use the generally otherwise unused 12V tap on the generator to automatically start/stop the fans and pump, with no load mine reads as much as 19V and will quickly fry your fans and pump (yes, I did both the first time around... never thought to check the voltage:R). I just used a DPTP switch in place of the kill switch and when turned on, fires the fans and pump and when off kills the fan, pump and grounds the gen. as the original switch did.

Prof. and everyone, thanks for all the good work and info ...

Tom

[rocstar]

Hi, I'm a newbie here.
I bought a Wen PowerPro 3500 after reading this thread for a while (Menards - $279 - $25 rebate). I bought a Coleman wheel kit, but it is meant for square tube rods, not round. Is there a way to retrofit? Could I attach some square tubes to the round somehow and then attach the Coleman kit?

[GatorFan]

Professor,

I don't think small outboard engines have fuel pumps, after using the primer bulb I think the vacuum effect of the carb draws more fuel into the system. I don't see why a similiar system could not be used on RV's. I could be completely wrong, of course.

[professor95]

t is not clear to me how you are going to get cool air into the "box" and discharge the hot air.
Normally, "Onan" style gensets have the cylinder horizontal so the hot air is discharged vertically downward (thru the mesh).
Portables (usually) just suck it in one end and discharge it out the other. Sitting inside a cabinet seems it would mostly just recirculate the hot air - potentially causing an overheating condition.
What am I missing?
Otherwise, your setup seems ok.

I agree with your thinking and concern for potential overheating problems.

This is why I recommended a fan in the mesh under the generator. It doesn't take a big fan to move sufficient air into the box and force the hotter air out. Your observations are also why I suggested relocating the muffler outside the enclosure to reduce heat.

[professor95]

Concerning mounting portable generators in RV's, if you want a larger fuel tank, marine units should work well. They come in a huge variety of sizes and are built to stand up to pretty rough conditions.

While this is true, most portable marine fuel tanks have the outlet on the top of the tank. Outboard engines have a fuel pump to pick up the fuel from the tank.

These Chinese generators depend on gravity feed from a tank at a higher elevation. Also, the needle and seat in the carburetor is not designed to work with the pressures developed by most automotive electric in-line fuel pumps.

Getting the fuel out of a top valve marine tank into the genny will present a challenge.

[professor95]

So from the circuit diagram I marked up (I hope this don't sound stupid), I want to know if I can "rewire" from the 4 prong outlet; and if not, how I can do it.

You can't do it from the 4 prong outlet - sorry. The phase relationship of the two 120 volt coils is not the same.

You will need to separate the two green highlighted wires labeled W and R so you have two independent, unconnected wires. Once this is done you need to bring the W wire out to the Bu wire after the breaker. Then you need to bring the Br wire out to the R wire, also after the breaker. I believe your outlet is a NEMA L14-20. If so, you can then wire the 4 prong outlet for 120 by connecting the W/Bu wire combo to the terminal on the outlet marked W and the Br/R wire combo to the terminal marked X. The wire you have traced in yellow goes to G.

You will also need to remove one lead on your voltmeter from Br and renonnect that lead to R.

On the 120 outlet you will need to connect the screw that goes to the long slot (silver) to Bu and the short slot screw (gold) to R. Run the center grounding connector to the same point you do the yellow wire on the twist lock outlet.

I know this seems like a lot of wire swapping, but it is necessary to put both of the coils in parallel with the proper phase relationship.

A "dogbone" is an adapter available at most any RV dealership that allows you to plug your 30 amp TT plug into a standard 120 volt outlet. You will need some type of adapter for either the twist lock outlet or the 120 outlet to make this connection. Your generator does not have a "duplex" outlet like the ones in your home with two plug-ins so the power maximizer adapter discussed in previous postings will not work..

[GatorFan]

Professor,

Thanks for the help on the Wen generator question.

Concerning mounting portable generators in RV's, if you want a larger fuel tank, marine units should work well. They come in a huge variety of sizes and are built to stand up to pretty rough conditions.

[sye001]

[sye001]

Hi Professor, great forum you got going here.

I need a little extra help on rewiring this 3500W genset; I have looked through the forum pages (for 2 weeks) but did not get the help I need on this model, to rewire it for all 110V output only; and I don't need to switch back to 220V.

It's the same PowerPro 3500 from Pepboys, but it might be an updated model for this year (not sure). From the pic you can see, compared to the other version, there is now a voltmeter, a 12VDC out put, and a breaker; but, it has one 110V outlet instead of two, and it doesn't have the voltage selector !!!

I did not know about "dogbones" and "duplex outlet" you spoke of previously, was that something important I missed out on when it comes to rewiring these units?


So from the circuit diagram I marked up (I hope this don't sound stupid), I want to know if I can "rewire" from the 4 prong outlet; and if not, how I can do it.



Here's what I am thinking ...

From the diagram, there is a potential difference of 110V between the blue and the green line at the 4 prong outlet coming from coil #2. If I tap from these two wires only, don't I get 110V output directly from coil #2? For example, I can do this by plugging in the 4 prong male plug, but lead only the blue and green line into a female 3 prong plug (plus the ground of course), then take my 110V from there. This way I won't have to open the case at all. Is this right? Am I still protected by fuse/breaker?

If this is not a good way to do it, please help me out. Use the diagram to illustrate so I don't mess up and burn my family alive. Thanks lots.

SEE LINK: http://students.eng.fiu.edu/~sye/3500W.jpg

[presp]

bobandcat wrote:
...I just wanted to hear some other opinions as to whether I missed something drastic about installing a portable gasoline generator in place of the normal (expensive) onboard generator.
I already have removed the muffler to mount it under my 5'er. I am also considering removing the fuel tank and placing it into my truck mounted toolbox while in transit. Time will tell whether I find that to be too much of a hassel.

It is not clear to me how you are going to get cool air into the "box" and discharge the hot air.
Normally, "Onan" style gensets have the cylinder horizontal so the hot air is discharged vertically downward (thru the mesh).
Portables (usually) just suck it in one end and discharge it out the other. Sitting inside a cabinet seems it would mostly just recirculate the hot air - potentially causing an overheating condition.
What am I missing?
Otherwise, your setup seems ok.

[N9MB]

I purchased a Nikota 3500 from Pep Boys a couple of years ago not realizing it was a center tapped winding which resulted in 12.5 amps X 2 @ 120 volts or 12.5 amps X 1 @ 240 volts. I ended up buying a 5000 watt 2:1 bucking (up/down) tranformer and wired it to the 240 plug. The set now has plenty of power for the A/C and a few extras. I have no other complaints with the set which probably has 200 hours or so on it by now.

[professor95]

I apologize for missing your post on where to get one, I've literally read through 100 pages of this topic, and I believe I filed it in my brains cabinet, thinking it was an older post.

Is this generator that same as you reference?

3500 $ 329

There is absolutely nothing to apologize for - at least to me. With all the postings on this forum it is very easy to overlook something.

The generator you referenced is not one of the new RV ready Champions. But, it is a very nice unit that many forum members have purchased and reported to be extremely satisfied with. Warranty help after the Pep Boys 90 day return policy may be an issue since it is administered by the distributor, not the retail seller. Owners who have bought this unit and run into warranty issues are much better prepared to answer that question than I am. You will also be drawing power from a 20 amp duplex outlet. Conventional "dogbone" adapters are rated at 15 amps and, in some situations, your power demands may exceed the rating on the outlet and/or dogbone adapter. As a result either one could eventually be damaged from heat produced by internal resistance. A power maximizer (additional cost - another distributor) is often used on these models to tie both sides of a duplex outlet together into one 30 amp TT outlet. This device increases the prong contact area and reduces possibility of overheating the outlet. The Champion RV model has the 30 amp TT outlet on the front pannel and requires no further adapter or hardware.

I did not know your old unit was a contractor unit. You made a good choice in getting rid of it.

[bobandcat]

Thanks Professor.

I was thinking of doing just about what you recommended. I just wanted to hear some other opinions as to whether I missed something drastic about installing a portable gasoline generator in place of the normal (expensive) onboard generator.

I already have removed the muffler to mount it under my 5'er. I am also considering removing the fuel tank and placing it into my truck mounted toolbox while in transit. Time will tell whether I find that to be too much of a hassel.

[bobandcat]

Try Costco. Its $269.99 with the best warranty you can get--return it if your not happy (with receipt). If you don't have a membership, its $45 for one year, still only $315 for the generator and membership.

[btmfdr]

Professor,

Thanks for the info...

The generator I had used in the past was the loud 'contractor' style, I bought it at a yard sale for $ 50, invested $6 to get it running (plug,carb cleaner), used it for 2 seasons and sold it yesterday (Did'nt have the energy to get it going again...) at a garage sale for $ 25.

I apologize for missing your post on where to get one, I've literally read through 100 pages of this topic, and I believe I filed it in my brains cabinet, thinking it was an older post.

Is this generator that same as you reference?

3500 $ 329

Thanks Again,

Mark