3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[Old___Slow]

To all:

This gets more interesting for some of us tring to pass 101. My grade may be zero. Hopefully I can get it to 110v. Thanks, jconatser for the post. I will study more.

Mrwizard:

This thing about a zero volt conductor, that's interesting. Help me. This grounding thing is all to much for a old man like me.

O&S

[JConatser]

Here's a pic that will hopefully help everyone's understanding of ground and neutral wiring (and electrical wiring in general):

[Old___Slow]

MrWizard wrote:
maybe it would help, if we just 'try' to refer to the 'common wire / white wire' and try to refrain from the 'neutral' term

the white common wire IS ALWAYS load carrying and only in a home RESIDENTIAL wiring is zero volts neutral to ground NOT to the hot,[/quote


MrWizzard:

You have been such a big help to me. I started here at GROUND zero. I do like trying to learn something new at the age of 73. Some questions I have ask were kinda 101. I would never change one day in the life of this thread. Now, I found it interesting to learn some new terms, new to me. Your points about this floating neutral make some since. I never thought about Mother Earth being a faithful servant in being part of the circuit. Now you can have a good one on me. I thought the circuit just simply met a end in the ground. Not being part of the circuit. I always knew you could break a two wire circuit by either the black(hot) or the white(ground) ahhhh never entered my mind that this white was what it is......not a very good sentence. Now, Porfessor95 I am beginning to understand why you spent some much time in the classroom on the subject of, yes, GROUNDING. I will admit my lack of understanding with grounding. But I have made some progress with the help of all you vary kind men. I've got the genny in my RV circuit with (what is it) the floating something. Still a concern. I don't want to experience a SHORT circuit because I don't know what to do, YES, with this third wire (copper) Ground, Not grounded to earth and not in use from my genset compartment to the RV receptacle where I plug the shore cord to power the RV from the genset. I don't think I have moved past dead center. Say, men, old & slow Is still in the fog. This third wire hanging loose. Hope all my appliances are ok without our mother earth's help. So a ground (White wire, (boy that's a good one)is both a conductor and ground, something like that.
I give up, it's hopeless.

Floyd

[MrWizard]

maybe it would help, if we just 'try' to refer to the 'common wire / white wire' and try to refrain from the 'neutral' term

the white common wire IS ALWAYS load carrying and only in a home RESIDENTIAL wiring is zero volts neutral to ground NOT to the hot,

[Oldfordman]

professor95 wrote:

toprudder wrote:
You mean neither of the conductors is referenced to ground? Not correct, they have 230v with one hot and one neutral. It is one leg of a three phase 400v system with a neutral, just like there is a 208/120v three phase system in the US. It is also 50 Hz.

No, I didn't mean that at all.

As you know, when you are sitting in a classroom with an instructor the student can stop the lecture/demonstration at any time and ask for clairification or pose additional questions. No so with something like I just wrote. This method is called DIS (Directed Independent Study). Those receiving the lesson do not have the clarification/questioning opportunity until a later date when they meet or talk with the instructor/professor.

Another bad thing about DIS is that you can never be sure that what you want to say is what students are hearing until you have done many similar lessons and reviewed all the feedback. Ultimately, this type of data is used to develop most of our Distance Learning on-line courses.

I never ment to contend that in European countries that there is no reference to ground. I only ment to convey that they do not use derived voltage via a grounded centertap in residential systems like we do in North America.

In fact, the HV lines that deliver 23,000+ volts over two wires in North America also reference one of the conductors to ground as well. I did not mention that in my original writing because at the time I felt it was more information than was needed for understanding of the lower voltage side.

You are way above the average guy on this forum in your understanding of electrical/electronic systems. Shucks, it is your field and you are obviously a very smart, precise man. People with your background can really keep instructors/professors on their toes in a mixed experience class 😉 - believe me, I know! Just remember, I did not write the explaination for you nor did I intend for it to be on your higher level. Folks like O&S who were asking for the Theory 101 were my target.

Why not jump on in there with me and help give those who have not been as well educated as we have in electricity/electronics the opportunity to grasp understanding that will give them answers to their questions and hopefully, result in safer use of portable generators on RV systems? Even more help is needed......

I liked my Dad's Lectures on Electricity. They were to the point. He would merely say "Don't touch it, it can kill you". "If you don't know what you are doing, find someone that does". (BTW, he passed away over 45 years ago but the lesson still sticks)

[professor95]

toprudder wrote:
You mean neither of the conductors is referenced to ground? Not correct, they have 230v with one hot and one neutral. It is one leg of a three phase 400v system with a neutral, just like there is a 208/120v three phase system in the US. It is also 50 Hz.

No, I didn't mean that at all.

As you know, when you are sitting in a classroom with an instructor the student can stop the lecture/demonstration at any time and ask for clairification or pose additional questions. No so with something like I just wrote. This method is called DIS (Directed Independent Study). Those receiving the lesson do not have the clarification/questioning opportunity until a later date when they meet or talk with the instructor/professor.

Another bad thing about DIS is that you can never be sure that what you want to say is what students are hearing until you have done many similar lessons and reviewed all the feedback. Ultimately, this type of data is used to develop most of our Distance Learning on-line courses.

I never ment to contend that in European countries that there is no reference to ground. I only ment to convey that they do not use derived voltage via a grounded centertap in residential systems like we do in North America.

In fact, the HV lines that deliver 23,000+ volts over two wires in North America also reference one of the conductors to ground as well. I did not mention that in my original writing because at the time I felt it was more information than was needed for understanding of the lower voltage side.

You are way above the average guy on this forum in your understanding of electrical/electronic systems. Shucks, it is your field and you are obviously a very smart, precise man. People with your background can really keep instructors/professors on their toes in a mixed experience class 😉 - believe me, I know! Just remember, I did not write the explaination for you nor did I intend for it to be on your higher level. Folks like O&S who were asking for the Theory 101 were my target.

Why not jump on in there with me and help give those who have not been as well educated as we have in electricity/electronics the opportunity to grasp understanding that will give them answers to their questions and hopefully, result in safer use of portable generators on RV systems? Even more help is needed......

[Old___Slow]

Wgeorge:

There was a question here that if I may, I have removed.

I will try to be a better boy in this classroom. However that was not required to stay threading here.

O&S

[Wgeorge11]

Old & Slow wrote:
annentomaz:

... ask, why the H___ a UL sticker on my electric polisher. Only a two prong plug. Sir, again, I am lost as a goose in FOG.

Thanks,

O&S

Forty years ago I bought a JC Penney 3/8" drill with only two plug legs. They called it "double insulated". It isolated the electronics from earth ground by using nonconductive materials. Many of my "consumer" tools, including a random polisher and a weed wacker use this UL approved configuration which isn't shocking at all except to the circuit breaker.

[Todd_Barney]

AnneNTomAZ wrote:

Todd wrote:
As for the generator, I continued to have problems with the oil being pulled back through the air cleaner

I have rebuilt a lot of small 4 cycle engines. Their intake air takes the "path of least resistance". If they can't get what they need through the air filter, then it has to come from the crank case breather tube. There are some dirty oily vapors in there which in a short time will foul your filter. Change your filter often. Paper filters clog with dust and cannot be cleaned well enough after a couple of cleanings. Cheap insurance, like the commercial said "You can pay me now (small amount for filters), or you can pay me later ( large amount for overhaul). Change the oil and filters often and if there isn't an inline fuel filter, put one in. Biggest cause of engine problem is dirty or old stale fuel. Good Luck, you are becoming an involuntary expert quickly.

I hear ya. FWIW, it still seemed like "clean" oil. The filter is foam, so I would simply squeeze it out (wrap in a couple of paper towels and squeeze) to get the excess oil out, wipe down the inside of the air cleaner housing, and put it all back together. Since there wasn't a lot of strong airflow into the fresh air opening, it didn't seem to be sucking in a lot of dust, so the filter still looks pretty clean.

[toprudder]

professor95 wrote:
Ironically, if we were on the other side of the pond, all of this discussion would not occur. Most of the world uses "straight 240", which has no derived neutral.

You mean neither of the conductors is referenced to ground? Not correct, they have 230v with one hot and one neutral. It is one leg of a three phase 400v system with a neutral, just like there is a 208/120v three phase system in the US. It is also 50 Hz.

Bob R.

[Old___Slow]

annentomaz:

Come to me: I like this thread, something new every day. When I bought my MH, I cound not believe the sight of the old ONAN. Wow, talk about a dirty air filter, this one took the prize for being the most dirty.It was a world beater. The entire genny was covered with old oil. The meter only showed 261 hours. It was DOA. All the way to the voltage reg. and stator. I do believe that fog of oil you speak of, along with road dirt that entered the genhead, killed the big beast. Anyway, it was to expensive to repair and that is why I arrived at the thread. To learn stuff I knew nothing about. Now today I opened up and this bit of info' thanks.

Now to Mrwizard:

Forgive me for ONE possible error in a statement I made. I put some of the blame on people like you for adding this third wire in my circuits. Another beast for me to deal with. I have no business asking questions about how I get my electric power and my what means. I know vary little. However, I expose my stupidity and ask, why the H___ a UL sticker on my electric polisher. Only a two prong plug. Sir, again, I am lost as a goose in FOG.

Thanks,

O&S

[AnneNTomAZ]

Todd wrote:
As for the generator, I continued to have problems with the oil being pulled back through the air cleaner

I have rebuilt a lot of small 4 cycle engines. Their intake air takes the "path of least resistance". If they can't get what they need through the air filter, then it has to come from the crank case breather tube. There are some dirty oily vapors in there which in a short time will foul your filter. Change your filter often. Paper filters clog with dust and cannot be cleaned well enough after a couple of cleanings. Cheap insurance, like the commercial said "You can pay me now (small amount for filters), or you can pay me later ( large amount for overhaul). Change the oil and filters often and if there isn't an inline fuel filter, put one in. Biggest cause of engine problem is dirty or old stale fuel. Good Luck, you are becoming an involuntary expert quickly.

[Coyote_Sport_13]

(Read posting from 8/9/07 @ 2:30 p.m. for full text.)

This one sort of caught in my craw.....

I believe I have the same RS meter.

I do have a Champion.

I have NEVER gotten a reading as loud as you report under almost identical measurement conditions.

The fact that you say the spark arrestor made the unit quiter disturbs me. It should make no difference. In fact, according to my testing, the muffler is excellent in reducing sound and little if any benefit is gained by adding additional silencing to the exhaust.

Please try this before you give up: Take an old towel, fold it to 5-6 layers and gently hold it over the muffler outlet (be quick, it gets very hot!). There should be NO significant change in sound level. If there is, I suspect you may have a defective muffler. I know this sounds remote, but it is possible. The muffler is a three chamber design much like an auto muffler. In the manufacturing process if "something" was left out or improperly welded/pressed, the muffler would not function as designed. Again, a long shot but entirely possible.

If you conclude the muffler may be defective, call CPE and talk to Paul Cole. Most likely, he will be aware of the problem since he does read the forum.

Once more, your generator should not be as loud as your measurements.

That's great you have the same meter so you understand the settings and perhaps quality (?) of the unit. Do you think it is a reasonably consistent meter? As I mentioned it was recommended on several home theater forums several years ago. I was able to get the fan silicone job done tonight and hope to try your recommendations on the muffler on Monday/Tues as I'll be pretty busy until then. If I tap on the muffler case or tilt the genset up/down I don't hear any loose baffles but I suppose there still could be. Thanks for the recommendations and I'll report back ASAP.

[Old___Slow]

ANOTHER SHOT:

A man of old they called "teacher" a man of now (i) call "teacher"

Thanks, Doctor professor95


O&S

[yerlizard]

jpkiljan wrote:
A REASON NOT TO BUY A PORTABLE GENERATOR FROM PEPBOYS? I'm pretty happy with my 3000 watt Wen Power generator (PowerPro Model 3500D 6.5 HP) from PepBoys. It has already seen me through one short power outage. I paid a pretty reasonable $250 plus tax on it after the $50 mail-in rebate, which put it just under the cost of their competition. I think the price has gone up a bit since then with the rebate still set at $50. However, for those considering the purchase of a generator from PepBoys, consider this: a $50 rebate is not worth $50 if you never get it.

Mine never came. Instead, I got a postcard from "Pep Boys Auto Resubmit" saying that the "The receipt(s) submitted did not show the purchase of any qualifying items." Fortunately, I made copies of everything and, yes, the receipt exactly matches the item on the multi-page fill-in form plus all the times and eligible dates check out. I couldn't figure out why the sales clerk was insistent that he help me fill out their long rebate form, but he did it exactly right from what I can see. Nor, can I figure out why a quality retailer would want to hurt their reputation with this kind of thing. I'll invite PepBoys to reconsider their rejection, of course, but who wants that kind of hassle over just $50?

If the check ever does show up, I'll post a quick note here.

--John

I filled mine out ( that means my wife di it), mailed it in and had a check within 3 weeks. I thought it was speedy for a rebate.
Overall very happy with the power pro and pep boys. Always starts on the first or second pull. Easy on fuel. quiet for what it is.