3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[racefan1965]

skyzoomer wrote:
BTW regarding the wheel kit for the Champion C46540, are the wheels air filled or solid rubber?

I believe they have 2 different sets. One small and hard and the other larger and spongey. The small hard ones are less expensive. They may have changed things since I last looked too though.

Rick
PS I believe they only advertise one of the sets and you have to ask about the other.

[racefan1965]

professor95 wrote:
I am hoping that maybe I can motivate a couple of guys to join in on the prototype process before I make my permanent enclosure this winter. Sharing is extremely beneficial.

I'd love to try and join in to the prototype process you mention. I am on a tightly fixed budget so as long as the modifications aren't too expensive you can count me in. I'm not the most mechanically inclined but can hold my own against most amateur tinkerers like myself. I'm not even close to being in the same league as you and several others on here though. 🙂 I would need instructions on the propane conversion. My only worry is that a 2.5 gallon gas can is about 15 bucks filled if you count can and gas and easier to fill and transport in the back of the truck. Propane cylinders are three or four times more expensive and harder to transport and fill. Plus from my understanding you get less power from propane. My 5er is small and old (1984 24foot) and only has two 5gal propane tanks on it so for more than a couple days of use I would need either extra cylinders or a close place to refill. Not always possible so I wonder if converting would be smart for myself. It's too bad it's not possible to insulate between the gas tank and genset to avoid allowing the tank to act as a sound resonator. It would allow us gas users to continue running with gas while still obtaining the sound reduction.
Thanks,
Rick

PS.Does anyone know what the average run time is for a 3500watt genset on a 5gallon tank of propane?

[Old___Slow]

racefan1965 wrote:
link to photo

http://duropower.com/item.asp?PID=178&FID=2&level=1

WOW.........Can't believe what I see 🙂










O&S

[Wgeorge11]

skyzoomer wrote:
BTW regarding the wheel kit for the Champion C46540, are the wheels air filled or solid rubber?

They are solid.

[racefan1965]

link to photo

http://duropower.com/item.asp?PID=178&FID=2&level=1

[bobandcat]

blkfe wrote:
Here is the link to the genset with covers installed to bring down the noise.
In looking over their website it looks very similar tho the Champion design.
I wonder if it produces full power on one 120 outlet?


http://duropower.com/item.asp?PID=178&FID=2&level=1

Brad

I would love to look at one of these to see how they handled its cooling air.

Their dimensions indicate that its about 7" larger in length, width and height than the Champion. Its looks like it could be targeting the rv market with the 120v, 30 amp circuit and no 240 v circuit. Also, remote start would be a plus for rv's.

[skyzoomer]

BTW regarding the wheel kit for the Champion C46540, are the wheels air filled or solid rubber?

[blkfe]

Here is the link to the genset with covers installed to bring down the noise.
In looking over their website it looks very similar tho the Champion design.
I wonder if it produces full power on one 120 outlet?


http://duropower.com/item.asp?PID=178&FID=2&level=1

Brad

[Wuttevr]

Mr. Professor,

With all do respect (I really mean that), I have a couple of suggestions, only because your prototype is nearly identical to mine. I wrote about it last year, but never got around to posting pictures.

On the fan side, I actually cut a trim ring out of the same material that fits perfectly snug around the outside of the fan, and glued it to the baffle. I believe it creates better suction, and thus higher velocity of air through the enclosure. It also obviously lets less sound escape. Another thing I did was was glue spacers about 4 inches thick around the sides and top, and covered with another piece of sound deadening material. This left the opening facing down, thus further reducing sound. Since this side is suction, I don't feel like it restricted air flow much, if at all. Warning!!! It is ugly.

On the opposite side, I did the exact same thing (without the down facing part) around the gen head. I also added a large hole right above the muffler. This is where I measured the airflow coming out to be the strongest. With that hole comes lots of hot air, and sadly, noise. I think it could be directed down like on the fan side, but since it is pushing, not pulling, I do believe it would restrict airflow some.

I just thought I would throw my already made mistakes and successes out there. No offense intended. With my muffler inside, I had about a 10 degree higher temperature, and a 6 db reduction in noise. The most interesting, and important thing to note is what happened to the head temperature once it was shut down; it obviously went way up. This makes sense as air was no longer moving over it and disapating heat. Everyone should keep in mind that the generator can operate at a safe temp while running in a box. But once you shut down, air is no longer circulating, and you have it trapped in an insulated box.

Just my observations.

[Oldfordman]

professor95 wrote:

bobandcat wrote:
I thought of the TEMP LIMIT SWITCH as I was was writing my last post.
Ideas from Professor95, MrWizzard or anyone else on how to set up the temp limit switch to turn off the generator would be appreciated.

The simplest approach would be to use a normally open (NO) sensor that closes at a specified temperature (180 degrees would be good). Ground one terminal on the switch and run the other terminal to the low oil cut off sensor on the engine. An appropriate normally open switch may be a little hard to locate. They are prominate in heating systems so a trip to HVAC supplier may be necessary to find what you want.

The other day I had the fan shroud off my set (Champion RV Ready) and noticed a small "box" with two wires in series with the "On/Off" switch that was attached at the 2:00 position. If I were to install a Temp Overlimit Switch, this is exactly where I would put it. Perhaps Champion has already included one on their units?

[skyzoomer]

Skyzoomer said: So using the stock muffler outside the box results in Honda quiet? Or did the wood sides of the platform the generator is sitting on help to muffle the stock muffler?

Professor95 said: No, no, no. Getting the muffler outside the box only reduces the heat build-up inside the enclosure. It does not change the sound. Getting heat out allows you to make a smaller, tighter enclosure. I also plan to wrap the internal exhaust pipe to the muffler with heat wrap used on exhaust headers to further reduce inside heat.

I did understand that the purpose of putting the muffler outside the box is to reduce the heat build-up in it. But in your prototype you mentioned that the muffler is outside and below the enclosure. Looking at your photos, the platform the generator is on appears to have 1" x 6" x 3/4" sides at the top. With the muffler installed below the enclosure it appears that it is effectively surrounded by the 1x6 boards. I was wondering if that did not help to muffle the sound from the muffler.

Thanks,
Skyzoomer

[professor95]

bobandcat wrote:
Where is your enclosure's hot air exit?
Is you bottom open to allow the generator head cooling air to exit?

In the prototype, the only air exit is the 6" opening on the alternator end. I bet you are thinking that we need to draw cool air in there for the AVR and alternator itself? You may be right, and I WILL work with other possible openings to adjust air flow and noise levels. That is the beauty of using cheap, easily cut fiberboard and duct tape for a prototype - changes are easily and quickly accomplished for testing purposes. I still have 2/3 of a sheet of fiberboard lying on the garage floor to experiment with!

We know from previous postings that enclosures will work. But, the successful ones use multiple fans (consuming power) and are extremely large and bulky. The cabinets can also be expensive and time consuming to make. I also question the safety of a gasoline tank inside an enclosure. My first enclosure prototype encountered all of these problems - that is when I decided for my personal objective it is a must to get the muffler and gas tank OUTSIDE the enclosure to make it compact and more efficient.

My biggest problem right now is time. I have way too many "irons in the fire" and multiple weekend RV trips planned through November. I also plan on going back to Mississippi for a week in late October to work on still existing Katrina damage. Whacking off my little finger last Spring and having the tree fall on my boat garage did not help with the time-to-project completion ratio either. I have slated the building of a more permanent enclosure around the Champion 40008 for winter when I cannot do the necessary outside work and camping that I have on my current agenda.

I am hoping that maybe I can motivate a couple of guys to join in on the prototype process before I make my permanent enclosure this winter. Sharing is extremely beneficial.

[professor95]

skyzoomer wrote:
Did this conversion make the engine any quieter than it was running on gas?

To answer a few of skyzoomer's questions: Black text is my stuff, blue is Zoomers.



Gas tank is removed.

I don't know how easy that was on the Eliminator but it looks impossible to do on the Champion C46540 without removing "everything" below the gas tank.


Same thing. Four bolts and the fuel line and the gas tank is out.

Sound absorbtion panels are made of fiber board sheathing.
What exactly is that? Normally used for what?

Sheathing used on the walls of a house, before the siding, brick, etc. is applied. Absorbs sound well, can be cut with a knife. But, not too waterproof. Uncoated side can be soaked with polyester resin or varnish to make a more rigid, weather resistant panel. Ultimately, I am looking at making a new frame from 1-1/2" x 1/8" angle iron (I have a welder) and attaching Filon (fiberglass) panels to a sound absorbing material like the sheathing with glue. The Filon will give the exterior weatherproof housing. BTW, Filon is available at Home Depot or Lowe's for around $25 for a 4x8 sheet. The sheathing was $6 for a 4x8 sheet.

Sound level was an extremely low 59 dB at the standard measurement distance of 21 feet. This is Honda 2000i quite!

Excellent! If the rest of us can achieve that we would be VERY happy.

It is achieveable. Keep in mind you have three sources of noise from the Chinese gensets: Exhaust, fan noise and mechanical noise from the engine and alternator. Exhaust noise is low as the genset comes, what we want to do is block the fan and mechanical noise. Another plus is the level of noise left is not as objectionable. The frequency of the annoying sounds you hear is reduced or changed. My wife and daughter came out to about 25 feet from the contraption when I was testing. The noise level was not even enough to interrupt their conversation and consequently they did not even notice it was running.


Like I said earlier, I believe the key to successfully building a compact enclosure is to get the muffler outside the box to reduce heat and ...snip

So using the stock muffler outside the box results in Honda quiet? Or did the wood sides of the platform the generator is sitting on help to muffle the stock muffler?

No, no, no. Getting the muffler outside the box only reduces the heat build-up inside the enclosure. It does not change the sound. Getting heat out allows you to make a smaller, tighter enclosure. I also plan to wrap the internal exhaust pipe to the muffler with heat wrap used on exhaust headers to further reduce inside heat.

The use of propane as a fuel also has nothing to do with sound. In my opinion, the enclosure is safer with the fuel tank remote to the enclosure. Since the tank is large and would take up additional space, why not use the RV's on-board propane supply? No extra tanks and a safer, cleaner fuel. Also, the metal tank on top of the engine acts as a sound conductor, even with gas in the tank.

Propane conversion is EASY and SAFE if you understand the process. It also can be inexpensive. Initally, the term "propane conversion" sent a chill up my spine. Why? I did not know how to do it and the kits appeared expensive. I now know the so called "tricks" and will share them with those interested (actually, there is no trick involved). If you have regular hand tools, an old gas Bar-B-Q grill to remove a low pressure regulator and hoses from (only needed for a dedicated tank - not needed for RV gas feed), and are willing to make non-reversable mods to existing parts (genset carb and exhaust manifold) it can be done with only the purchase of the demand regulator for less than $60 and couple of hose clamps, a gas ball valve and brass fittings from Home Depot or Lowe's for no more than another $20.

The engine on the genset operates off of less than 1/2 PSI at the input to the mixer (carb in gas terms). Extremely low pressure and readily available on any RV. The volume of propane used for the 200 cc engine is small enough that existing hoses and pipes on the RV are more than adequate. The generator uses about the same amount of propane when running as your gas water heater.

One suggestion I have is to have a second panel on the top which can slide out to shield the generator's power panel from the rain. This slide out panel will also help shield the generator's power panel from the sun which should help preserve it and assist with the cooling effort.

Maybe even have two small hinged panels on the slide out panel which can drop down to offer side protection from the rain. IOW, the small side panels would normally be resting flat on the top of the slide out panel. After the slide out panel is pulled out, the side panels would each be rotated 270 degrees to end up offering side protection for the generator's power panel. To even go a step further, maybe have a hinged drop down front panel too to really shield the gen's power connectors from the rain.

You have given us (me for sure) a good, compact sound proofing model to look into for our generators. Thanks!

That's what the sharing of the prototype is all about; generating additional ideas and testing them.

Skyzoomer

[skyzoomer]

Further thinking for using Professor95's sound proofing design for those who will not be converting to propane.

Since the gas tank will have to be left on, just mount sound proofing panels on the sides and bottom of the generator. The gas tank should provide sound proofing for the top.

Optionally, mount a quarter inch wood panel on top of the generator's roll cage with a few inches of overhang all around. This panel would not have to be made of sound proofing material as it's purpose would just be to shield the gas tank from the sun to keep it cool and also shield the top of the generator from the rain.

Since there will be a lot of space and air flow between the top of the gas tank and the top panel, and since the panel shields the tank from the sun, the top of the gas tank should be quite cool.

Skyzoomer

[skyzoomer]

Professor95,

Nice, innovative enclosure and thanks for sharing! I like how you attach the panels directly to the generator's frame rather than build a box for the unit to sit in.

Advantages of your design that come to mind are:

1. Compact.

2. Power panel with meters is exposed to the ambient air which helps to cool all of the components on the panel.

3. Besides providing sound reduction, your enclosure also provides shelter from the rain. :C cool

The engine has been converted to propane.

Did this conversion make the engine any quieter than it was running on gas?

Gas tank is removed.

I don't know how easy that was on the Eliminator but it looks impossible to do on the Champion C46540 without removing "everything" below the gas tank.

Sound absorbtion panels are made of fiber board sheathing.

What exactly is that? Normally used for what?

Sound level was an extremely low 59 dB at the standard measurement distance of 21 feet. This is Honda 2000i quite!

Excellent! If the rest of us can achieve that we would be VERY happy.

Like I said earlier, I believe the key to successfully building a compact enclosure is to get the muffler outside the box to reduce heat and ...snip

So using the stock muffler outside the box results in Honda quiet? Or did the wood sides of the platform the generator is sitting on help to muffle the stock muffler?

One suggestion I have is to have a second panel on the top which can slide out to shield the generator's power panel from the rain. This slide out panel will also help shield the generator's power panel from the sun which should help preserve it and assist with the cooling effort.

Maybe even have two small hinged panels on the slide out panel which can drop down to offer side protection from the rain. IOW, the small side panels would normally be resting flat on the top of the slide out panel. After the slide out panel is pulled out, the side panels would each be rotated 270 degrees to end up offering side protection for the generator's power panel. To even go a step further, maybe have a hinged drop down front panel too to really shield the gen's power connectors from the rain.

You have given us (me for sure) a good, compact sound proofing model to look into for our generators. Thanks!

Skyzoomer