3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[professor95]

blkfe wrote:
My only problem is vibration and noise in the bedroom above the generator compartment. I am open for ideas on this as I need to quite and smooth it out quite a bit. The generator is still in it's orignal frame and all rubber mounts are still in place. Any Ideas????
Brad

I responded to this the other day, but cut the wrong text for my response. Let me try again this time with the right text.

Mount the entire thing on 4 or more V8 engine valve springs. You will need to work with where and how you secure the springs, but fender washers are big in diameter and work well with a smaller nylon insert locking nut and bolt to hold the ends of the springs in place.

While we are on the subject of vibration, for water pumps glue a piece of 1/4" plywood to both sides of a fairly high density piece of foam at least 2" thick. Screw the pump to one side and the other to the floor. You might also consider replacing a section of the discharge hose with more flexible plastic hose. Oh yeah, for glue use adhesive made for polystyrene that will not melt the foam. It is in tubes like caulk that go in a "gun". I buy mine at either Home Depot or Lowes. I prefer PL300 Foamboard Adhesive.

[professor95]

Old & Slow wrote:
Can't get this thing off my mind. Wgeorge states in so many words, don't worry about some fried wires and some smoke but now it's the possibility of some busted up fingers with Professors spring loaded actuator for the return position. So I'm letting you know I need some more thoughts on this Door Lock Actuator. Professor has the knowledge in these Electro choke mechanicals to fix me up but the student needs to learn a few things through his own experiments, before he cries uncle or Professor, please, can you help me. You being a third party might take pity with some answers. Will I need to spring load the 747 to make it fly and land in a resting position. Maybe it might make it through all the head winds yet. Maybe Wgeorge can help the ole BUSH man from Alaska who learned to fly at age 12 but now can only fly backwars, mercy me alive. Anyone, help is needed. It's the spring thing again.

Old&Slow

OK, here is some missing detail for the electric choke.

BTW, have you looked at my pic and comments on the trunk release solenoid? That is the best solenoid to use of those suggested. Just wire the solenoid hot wire to the starter terminal and ground the other (negative) wire.

The choke has a friction mechanism that has to be removed to work properly with an electric solenoid. Note the post at the end of the yellow arrow in the photo below. There is a "lip" on the plastic piece at the end of the red arrow that rubs against the post. This lip needs to be snipped off with small wire cutters.

Also note that the larger and longer plastic lever that attaches to the choke butterfly piece is not used. The solenoid pull wire is attached directly to the piece shown after the friction mechanism is removed. The existing hole will work, but is elongated. Better to insert a 4-40 nut and bolt into the hole and the solenoid push/pull wire to the 4-40 bolt.

[Old___Slow]

professor95 wrote:
Virtually all of the Chinese gensets we often refer to on this forum are built around the same GX200 engine casting, with the exception of a few digital models and Yamaha clones. I have only been able to determine that there are two major foundries in China making the castings for both the engine and genhead casing. There are literally hundreds of Chinese companies that purchase these castings to build their products.

In essence, the engine is the engine. The cost is pretty well fixed for each company. I know of no other company besides CPE that has invested in improving the engine durability with items like forged rockers and stronger valve stems and seats.

The difference, and as a result quality and cost, is in the genhead itself. Copper is expensive. Reducing the amount of copper (wire size & length) reduces cost. It also reduces output capacity. The coating (insulation) on the wire effects cost as well. Enamel coatings are less expensive than Formvar or the newer urethane coatings. Only problem, enamel coated wire does not withstand heat as well and is more likely to burn and short out between windings. On the voltage regulator side, capacitors are a lot cheaper than solid state automatic voltage regulators. Another cost savings for some models. Ironically, the so called "brushless" gen heads are cheaper to make than the ones with slip rings and a brush set.

Also note duplex outlets are less expensive than RV type, switches for voltage/current distribution change add cost, as do additional meters for hours, volts frequency, etc. I have even noted a difference in the type of rope used in some recoil starters and the castings for carburetors. These little things add up to significant cost and quality differences. If a company can save 10 cents per unit by using a small cotton rope in the starter vs. a larger nylon rope and their output is 1,000 units a week, they save $100. Or, better stated, the monthly salary for one factory worker.

On the subject of ratings - yes, they can be all over the board. CSA (Canadian) requirements do differ from those in the US. Champion has stated that they tend to under rate their CSA models to be sure they meet specifications.

Voltage ratings are fairly consistent within a range of 110 to 120 volts. But even that has an impact - 20 amps at 110 volts is equal to 2,200 watts while 20 amps at 120 volts is equal to 2,400 watts. Most companies use the higher voltage to compile their ratings.

Wattage ratings come in running, peak, surge and average. For running, there are often time limits imposed to keep within safe temperature limits. Wattage is a measurement of the amount of work the flow of electrons can accomplish. RMS voltage of an AC signal is equal to the same heat produced in a resistance by a DC voltage. Most all AC voltages are given as a RMS value. Most people are surprised to learn that a 100 volt RMS value of a 60 HZ AC signal is in reality a 141.4 volt peak voltage. Since wattage is determined by multiplying the voltage by amperage, why not use the peak voltage and make a unit delivering 100 volts at 20 amps (2,000 watts) into a unit providing 141.4 peak volts at 20 amps and advertise it as a 2,800 peak watt unit? Sort of like my advertised 6 peak HP sears shop vacuum that in reality is only 2 HP (1,500 watts).

Surge wattage is an even different computation as is average wattage.

Yes, it is an advertising game. About the best it is really going to get for these units is 2,800 to 3,000 continuous watts - period. And this is for the better built units. Cheaper units might sustain 2,200 watts before the temperature in the genhead rises to the point that it self destructs. I have dissected several different genheads. I can tell you without a doubt that the best built genheads I have seen are on the Champion and Wen PowerPro, with CPE being well above the rest on their newest models sold by Home Depot and UltraFab. I am told the CSA model also uses the same genhead design.

Let the buyer beware (unless he is informed).

I want to say something in support of the Champion C46540 installed in my MH.. As I think about what has been my experience in operating the various items, makes me wonder if any and all of these various stated required wattages are actual or not. As Wgeorge reminds us, only death and taxes are for sure. If the Champion C46540 is only 3000w continuous, how is it that I can operate a Coleman 13,500 BTU A/C and 12amp compressor on the refer plus in little fan inside, a 300/500w converter/batt.chg and a 800w Micro all at the same time. When I turn on the micro the genny sound like a death cough but recovers. It's a mystery to me. Something is not right.:? I don't think any further testing is necessary for me. My hats off to the folks @ Champion.:B

[Old___Slow]

LittleBill wrote:

Old & Slow wrote:
LittleBill:

The needed DPDT Switch Wired for Phase Reversal has been located on EBay. I do believe this will operate the Model 742 Door Lock Actuator (BULLDOG SECURITY) offered on Directwholesale.net The installation looks like a piece of cake. It comes with a rod that should work by only drilling a hole through the choke lever to attach this rod. The Actuator will be attached to the frame standard. Hope the devil is not it the details and it proves to be a fun project. Thanks again.

Floyd
O&S

Floyd

well it depends what you need to do, they fire on reverse polarity , so you can use a switch as mentioned or 2 relays and push buttons to do it, if your using it for a choke just realize these are not designed to be in either direction for long, so open choke would need to be in the rest position of the actuator. let me know if you need anything else

LittleBill:

Can't get this thing off my mind. Wgeorge states in so many words, don't worry about some fried wires and some smoke but now it's the possibility of some busted up fingers with Professors spring loaded actuator for the return position. So I'm letting you know I need some more thoughts on this Door Lock Actuator. Professor has the knowledge in these Electro choke mechanicals to fix me up but the student needs to learn a few things through his own experiments, before he cries uncle or Professor, please, can you help me. You being a third party might take pity with some answers. Will I need to spring load the 747 to make it fly and land in a resting position. Maybe it might make it through all the head winds yet. Maybe Wgeorge can help the ole BUSH man from Alaska who learned to fly at age 12 but now can only fly backwars, mercy me alive. Anyone, help is needed. It's the spring thing again.

Old&Slow

[blkfe]

So I need a coin-op to automatically start the generator when 25 cents is deposited. Hmmmm...... Might be simpler to get a Motel Room.

[Old___Slow]

Wgeorge11 wrote:
Now that the wives are satisfied, I'm wondering how to eliminate unwanted vibrations for those of us who find them annoying; I know there are spring loaded vibration feet available and wonder how they would work.

Well,I think they would shake your booty really good. But maybe not satisify the wife with those vibrating feet. I think Professor's quarter in the bed side relique is the best idea.

[Wgeorge11]

Now that the wives are satisfied, I'm wondering how to eliminate unwanted vibrations for those of us who find them annoying; the generator, not the wife. I have a 20yo old converter that works like a champ, but fills the TT with its incessent hum. A couple wedges limits the noise until they loosen. Same can be said for the old Sureflo when it kicks in under the bed. Trust me, no one's smiling. Since the gen is not attached to the unit it's not a problem for me today. But my future plans are to hang it from the TT frame, either fore or aft, where ever it can be fitted. I know there are spring loaded vibration feet available and wonder how they would work.

[Wgeorge11]

Thanks for the facts and in keeping the record straight, Prof. CPE and Parts Am both jumped through hoops providing me with outstanding costomer service. Wish everything else was this certain (besides death and taxes that is).

[professor95]

blkfe wrote:
Another change...
Wife wants to keep the vibration in the bedroom...........lol
Brad

....... yes. There was a time when it would have taken a quarter in a motel bedside control box to get thet much excitement.

[professor95]

Old & Slow wrote:
Well and good. The above sounds just like a response I myself have received direct from a mfg. in the past. Even the wording. There is still the question of, I do believe of the same units being offered in the US/Canada with different ratings on the same machine. Is it wrong to assume different Countries require the gensets offered for sale in their markets base their ratings on the standard set by their country. In the past several years you have looked through and through several units in bring to us your honest opinion and that opinion is backed by (as you say) a lifetime of learning and teaching in the field of electronics. No one is in doubt of this face. As I look back through the postings on this thread, I notice with interest a slight bias toward CPE. of recent times. Some times I guess we are all quick to defend ours Champions and the ones who value our opinion. I do value the opinion of all the folks of great knowledge who contribute to this forum. I wish we could hear from others who are reading daily this thread. Once in a while we hear from someone stating they have followed and read from this forum for years. For this reason, Professor95, take pride in that first posting of "3000W Chinese Gensets Info' " This thread has been a LIFE SAVER for OLD & Slow. Please continue this great labor of Love to all of us. You are our CHAMPION, THANKS.

I'm sorry, but your response sure does sound like you might be suggesting that I am quoting Champion advertising. If so, I take personal offense at such an allegation. If not, I apologize for reading something into the wording that was not meant to be there.

My words are mine and mine alone. I owe Champion nothing and they owe me nothing as well. If there are similarities perhaps it is because we are both speaking the truth?

Bias? Yes, there is a bias toward CPE.

Why? IMHO, CPE is a company that appears to have their act together. They are American owned, build their own label in their own plant, live up to their warranties and offer extremely good customer service - not to mention a good product. Why shouldn't I be biased?

Still, I extol quality in other units as I see it. Thus, you will find my positive comments for the WEN PowerPro sold at PEP Boys. Overall, customer service is lacking compared to CPE, but the product is extremely well built.

As for other brands like DuroPower, I have not been privileged enough to have one for examination and testing. I do not know what is inside, only the comments other forum writers have made. It would be difficult for me to say much about the product either way.

My purpose on this forum is to provide what I believe to be factual information, not favoritism. I have no desire to enter into what I call "Ford vs. Chevy". Gas vs. Diesel" or a "Champion vs. Watever" wars.

As Joe Friday used to say on Dragnet, "Just the facts, Mam, just the facts."

[Old___Slow]

Britincali wrote:

Wgeorge11 wrote:

Britincali wrote:

Fixed it ;):D

Please keep us posted as to the performance of your engine. It's obvious you use it more than many others, and its ability to survive abrasions will be important to all.

I dont know if I use it more than others I just tend to be either in the middle of the desert or buried in sand at the dunes when I do use it :D, I think its gonna be just fine as it fired up as usual and she wasnt smoking at all.

You guys should definatly seal up around that breather hose that enters the airbox, whoever decided just to drill a hole and push it through needs his head looking at.

I just went out to my newly built gen house to check the breather inlet tube on my DuroPower DP3500EC (Electric Start) and found there would be little to no chance it could be dislodged and separate from the breather housing. Hope all the abrasive sand will not play a delayed dirty trick on the genny.:E

[skyzoomer]

blkfe wrote:
My only problem is vibration and noise in the bedroom above the generator compartment. I am open for ideas on this as I need to quite and smooth it out quite a bit. The generator is still in it's orignal frame and all rubber mounts are still in place. Any Ideas????
Brad

Maybe check out auto junk yards for engine motor mounts to see if any will work.

Skyzoomer

[Britincali]

Wgeorge11 wrote:

Britincali wrote:

Fixed it ;):D

Please keep us posted as to the performance of your engine. It's obvious you use it more than many others, and its ability to survive abrasions will be important to all.

I dont know if I use it more than others I just tend to be either in the middle of the desert or buried in sand at the dunes when I do use it :D, I think its gonna be just fine as it fired up as usual and she wasnt smoking at all.

You guys should definatly seal up around that breather hose that enters the airbox, whoever decided just to drill a hole and push it through needs his head looking at.

[Wgeorge11]

Britincali wrote:

Fixed it ;):D

Please keep us posted as to the performance of your engine. It's obvious you use it more than many others, and its ability to survive abrasions will be important to all.

[Britincali]

Old & Slow wrote:
For this reason, Professor95, take pride in that first posting of "3000W Chinese Gensets Info' " This thread has been a LIFE SAVER for everyone who read it.

Fixed it ;):D