3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[blkfe]

Temperature limit switch
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/categories/hvacr/controls/fan-and-limit-controls

[bobandcat]

Generator-Guy,

Thanks for the quick and detailed test results. I personally thought that we'd be waiting for a week or two before we saw them.

They certainly agree with Professor95's and my earlier comments that we shouldn't expect more than about 3000 watts continuous especially when most of us will be using the generator above sea level and at elevated temperatures while running our air conditioners.


I removed my generator the other day from my 5'er to rebuild its enclosure per some of the professor95's and other's earlier comments.

The changes will include:
-Fuel tank moved outside of the engine/generator head compartment.
-AVR relocated to outside of the enclosure.
-Exhaust pipe to muffler insulated with heat insulating wrap.
-Muffler will be insulated with high temp fiberglass as shown. earlier by Professor95. No change to current outside location.
-No change to the 300 cfm squirrel cage cooling fan.
-Possible modification to the air intake thru the bottom of the enclosure to reduce recirculation of hot air if needed.
-High temperature shut-off thermocouple mounted on the generator head

Unlike you, I will probably take a month or two to complete these modifications and report back on results. Except for temperature, my results will be subjective as I do not have much instrumentation at my disposal.


Professor95, MrWizard, Generator-Guy,
I have not been able to locate the temperature shut-down switch for the engine if the generator head starts getting too hot. I have been looking for a 170/180 degree F switch. From Generator-Guy's testing, maybe 190 degree F may be more appropriate, although earlier comments by Professor95 indicated that the wiring insulation may start breaking down at this temp. Also, where would be the best place to mount it on the generator head?

What do you think? Any suggestions?

[generator-guy]

toprudder wrote:

Regarding the unmonitored leg, and the waveform distortion. I assume the voltages you quoted are all RMS. What were the peak values? While the high RMS voltages could damage resistive loads (lights, heaters) the peak values, if excessively high, can damage electronic circuits. And, they can play havoc with the MOVs in the devices that use them for surge protection.

All the values I quoted are true RMS, and with this much waveform distortion, a non-true RMS meter has significant error. So that's something to keep in mind with generators (and inverters) in general.

You're correct about peak values being a potential problem. I didn't measure the peak values during the overvoltage condition when the two legs were badly unbalanced. I did measure the peak voltage when I was analyzing the normal waveform in 120 volt mode.

With a perfect sine wave, 125 VRMS would yield 177 volts peak. With the distorted Champion sinewave, the Fluke Scopemeter measured 198 volts peak at both 2500 and 3300 watts. That's about 11% above what you'd expect. So you'd probably be OK with devices that use 140 VRMS MOVs but the 130v MOVs might have a problem.

I'd think most electronic devices would not be bothered by the higher peak voltage? Both conventional and switching power supplies turn the AC into DC and the peaks will be averaged out to the RMS value. The exception would be a power supply with very little load on it where the DC voltage could be high by 10 - 15%. I'd worry more about anything that has to interact with the raw AC line such as X10 or Insteon home automation controls.

As I plan to use it with a relatively short beefy 10 gauge 4 wire connection cable, I'm going to open my Champion up and turn the AVR down to 120v under typical loads. That will get the peak voltage down as well. I'm also only going to use it in the 120V mode. I'm not sure what it would have cost for an AVR to monitor both legs?

[Todd_Barney]

generator-guy,
Thanks, impressive post.
Look through the thread for discussion on using RTV sealant to quiet the cooling fan under the pull-start housing. That is most likely the rattling noise you heard.

[toprudder]

generator-guy wrote:
I confirmed the AVR only monitors one of the two legs in 240 volt mode. THIS COULD BE A RATHER SERIOUS PROBLEM! The voltage tended to be on the high side with my unit to begin with. And when I put 15 amps (about 1800 watts) of load on the monitored leg running in 2 phase mode, the voltage on the other "hot" leg of the 240 outlet was a stunning 148 volts!!! This is an extreme case, but it's a good reason for those who aren't going to keep track of how much load is on each leg to just use the generator in 120 volt mode. 148 volts can do some damage.

....(snip)....

The waveform starts off fairly clean with no load. It measures about 4% THD (total harmonic distortion) unloaded. At 1750 watts it gets rather "pointed" and starts looking more like a triangle wave with an odd "step" in it than a sine wave and the THD is 8%. At 2500 watts the THD rose to 11%. At 3300 watts it was 15%. These measurements are with purely resistive loads. I'd expect even more waveform distortion with inductive/reactive loads (i.e. motors, computer equipment, etc.). This is pretty typical performance of a low end generator of this size. I've seen worse.

Very impressive post, thanks for all that information!!

Regarding the unmonitored leg, and the waveform distortion. I assume the voltages you quoted are all RMS. What were the peak values? While the high RMS voltages could damage resistive loads (lights, heaters) the peak values, if excessively high, can damage electronic circuits. And, they can play havoc with the MOVs in the devices that use them for surge protection.

Bob R.

[generator-guy]

OK, the formal tests are done! I put some hours on my new Champion C46540 today to finish breaking it in. Some engines perform better when broken in and I also didn't really want to torture it before the rings were even seated, etc. In testing I found a few surprises other Champion owners may want to know about.

The question that's been asked many times in this thread, and I've not seen any solid answers to, is: "How much will it REALLY put out???" If someone else has done some careful testing, I've not seen it in the 100 or so pages of the 480 here I've read so far.

So, getting right to the meat of things, my particular Champion was pretty happy up to 3300 watts and things went downhill fast from there. At 3300 watts in 120 volt mode, it was managing a strong 125.3 volts but the governor had the throttle wide open against the stop and it still couldn't make 3600 RPM/60hz at that load. It was at 57hz (about 3400 RPM). At 3200 watts it was at 59.8hz. At 3100 watts it still had a little breathing room with the throttle and was at 60.2hz.

Anything much over 3300 watts put it into a slow death. The AVR seems rather aggressive and it just keeps trying to crank up the output to compensate for the falling engine speed. This puts an even greater load on the engine--which can't make as much horsepower at lower RPMs. So it's a losing game and starts a "death spiral" that ultimately stalls the engine.

I briefly applied (for less than a second) a 4000 watt load and used some fairly advanced instrumentation to capture the output voltage while it was applied. This simulates say a motor starting. The voltage sagged to 112 volts, a full 13 volts lower than normal, but that's still very respectable. So the 4000 watt "peak" rating seems reasonable.

So, as many of us suspected, the 3500 watt continuous rating is a bit optimistic but only by 200 watts. That's actually better than I guessed.

I fairly precisely measured fuel consumption towards the end of the break in period. With a 1750 watt (50% of the rated power) resistive load the Champion used 0.39 gallons per hour or 10.25 hours on a full 4 gallon tank.

I measured the noise level at 7 meters (same as Champion supposedly uses) and it was 70db with no load, a rather louder 73db at 1750 watts and a louder still 75 db at 3300 watts. The measurements are slightly higher from the back (muffler) side rather than the front (control panel) side. Plus, the house was only a few meters behind the generator and was reflecting some of the sound out towards the sound meter at 7 meters away. In an open field (which is likely how it was tested by the factory) it would likely measure a few db quieter and meet the spec at least at light loads.

Up to 3100 watts I measured a tight frequency range of 60.2hz to 62.5hz. This is excellent performance from the mechanical governor. As I said above, at 3300 watts the throttle is wide open at it's running around 57-58hz.

The AVR is rather aggressive in its operation. Unloaded I measure 127 volts true RMS. With a 500 watt load the voltage RISES to 127.6v. At 1000 watts it's up to 128.3v. At 1750 watts it's up even further to 128.5v!

Past about 1800 watts the voltage starts falling gradually as the load is increased further. At 2500 watts I measured 128.3v and 61.2hz. As I said above, even at 3300 watts, it was still at 125.3 volts. Apparently the AVR on my Champion needs to be turned down a few volts.

I confirmed the AVR only monitors one of the two legs in 240 volt mode. THIS COULD BE A RATHER SERIOUS PROBLEM! The voltage tended to be on the high side with my unit to begin with. And when I put 15 amps (about 1800 watts) of load on the monitored leg running in 2 phase mode, the voltage on the other "hot" leg of the 240 outlet was a stunning 148 volts!!! This is an extreme case, but it's a good reason for those who aren't going to keep track of how much load is on each leg to just use the generator in 120 volt mode. 148 volts can do some damage.

The reverse is also true. If you heavily load the UNmonitored side of the 240 outlet, it sags badly. I measured only 98 volts with a 15 amp load. SO I STRONGLY SUGGEST RUNNING THIS GENERATOR WITH THE SWITCH SET TO 120 VOLTS UNLESS YOU NEED 240 VOLTS FOR SOMETHING IMPORTANT. If you do need 240 volts, be careful about keeping the loads close to balanced on the two legs. You might want to buy a voltmeter so you can keep an eye on each leg. OTHERWISE YOU MAY DAMAGE SOME THINGS FROM EITHER LOW OR HIGH VOLTAGES!

After running 1750 watts for many hours, then 2500 watts for around a half hour, the highest temp I could measure on the generator head body was 125F which is pretty reasonable. The engine block was hotter at around 145F but that's still fairly reasonable. I then ran at full load (3300 watts) for a half hour and the generator head hit 135F and the engine block hit 160F. These are measured with a high-end infrared thermometer at close range. It was 50F outside. In say 90 degree summer weather you would have to add more than 40 degrees because, as the outside temp goes up, the generator's ability to dissipate heat goes down. So I'd expect the generator head to run at least 190F and the engine to exceed 210F with the same load. Those are still not into self destruct territory but for those of you trying build the Champion into your RV, see my comments below on cooling...

The waveform starts off fairly clean with no load. It measures about 4% THD (total harmonic distortion) unloaded. At 1750 watts it gets rather "pointed" and starts looking more like a triangle wave with an odd "step" in it than a sine wave and the THD is 8%. At 2500 watts the THD rose to 11%. At 3300 watts it was 15%. These measurements are with purely resistive loads. I'd expect even more waveform distortion with inductive/reactive loads (i.e. motors, computer equipment, etc.). This is pretty typical performance of a low end generator of this size. I've seen worse.

So those are the numbers. Overall, it's a pretty decent performance. The Champion comes pretty close to most of its specs on power output, noise and fuel consumption.

For those sweating the 200 watt short fall, consider the Honda EB3000 with the same size 200cc engine (the GX200 engine China cloned for the Champion) it's only rated at 2600 watts continuous. Porter Cable rates their Honda GX200 powered generator at 3500 watts continuous. So the Champion stacks up fairly well to these much more expensive generators.

I am a bit surprised the limiting factor seems to mostly be the engine rather than the generator head. That's actually good news because it means the generator head is less likely to overheat (and will be longer lived) if the engine doesn't have enough horsepower to let you reach its limits.

For the detail oriented geeks out there... I used three 1500 watt oil filled "radiator" type electric space heaters for the loads with one of them plugged into a big 15 amp "variac" autotransformer. This allowed me to fine tune the total load to achieve the exact loading quoted above regardless of the voltage sag, etc. These are resistive loads which are the easiest for a generator to handle. Loads with a power factor other than 1.0 would stress the generator more and you would get less total power.

I used a variety of instrumentation including a Fluke 190B series Scopemeter that's designed for power measurements, a Fluke 189 DMM, a Fluke i310S current probe, a Power Angel watt/VA/power factor meter, a 1.5Kva autotransformer, a SenDEC tachometer/hour meter and some beefy 10 guage wiring. I used the 20 amp plug AND the 30 amp plugs to apply the loads with the switch set to 120 volts. The measurements were taken at the unused plug.

The outside temp was about 50 degrees F close to sea level which is fairly ideal. In higher temps and/or higher altitudes you could expect significantly less power output, more voltage sag, etc.

For those of you wanting to box this thing up in your RV, you might want to be aware of a few things. First, as I stated above, in summer heat the thing is going to run HOT even in open air. I'd use full synthetic engine oil and hope the generator head doesn't fail from excessive temps if you box it up. To put things in perspective, if the generator is burning 0.4 gallons/hour of fuel, and producing 1.7 Kwh from that fuel, that leaves a whopping 11 Kwh of energy unaccounted for. Most of that is heat. So imagine putting a 5,000 - 10,000 watt heater into that small compartment in your RV? That's in effect what you're doing. Perhaps buy yourself a cheap infrared thermometer to check on the temps now and then? I'd also not exceed about 2500 watts in warm weather.

For those of you concerned about noise, my first observation is the muffler is made out of very thin sheetmetal. You can hear it "ping" with each exhaust pulse. A heavier muffler would likely quiet things down some? But quite a bit of noise also seems to come from the cylinder area and possibly from the intake (air cleaner housing). Mine also makes a rather disconcerting sort of "rattle" that almost sounds like something substantial is coming loose inside. It's barely audible when it's not loaded but gets louder with more load. Hopefully that's not a sign of bad things to come?

It's possible the maximum power will increase slightly, and the fuel consumption could drop a bit, as the engine is further broken in but I'm betting not by much. I'm also sure there is some normal variation from unit to unit, batch to batch. So, as they say, "your mileage may vary".

So that's about it. For $300 I think the Champion is better made and performs better than one would expect at that price. Mine usually starts on the first pull, is quieter than the cheap Briggs/Techumsa powered generators with small mufflers, and puts out a respectable amount of power. So far, it hasn't used any oil or done anything nasty. As long as it holds together for at least half as long as a name brand generator would, I still think it's a bargain.

[generator-guy]

Old & Slow wrote:
Silence is not always Golden, so here I am.

Generator Guy, I have nothing better to do than follow up on a post. Just keyed in Panamax, from their I opened to Ebay/panamax. Wow, didn't know one might spend up to $800 plus for some units. There is a Power strip PM 8 dsb Ex @ $56.40 on Ebay. Is this something like you suggest. Will this protect my LCD Monitor/HDTV and PC using the Champion C46540?

Panamax makes lots of fancy protectors designed to protect TVs, computer networks, audio gear, etc. Unless you're worried about lightning getting into your other wiring, all you really need is their "M2" model which can be found for around $25 ($40 list). It has their "protect or disconnect" circuitry that I was talking about.

[Old___Slow]

Silence is not always Golden, so here I am.

Generator Guy, I have nothing better to do than follow up on a post. Just keyed in Panamax, from their I opened to Ebay/panamax. Wow, didn't know one might spend up to $800 plus for some units. There is a Power strip PM 8 dsb Ex @ $56.40 on Ebay. Is this something like you suggest. Will this protect my LCD Monitor/HDTV and PC using the Champion C46540?

Toprudder, hopefully you will chime in on this subject.

[generator-guy]

professor95 wrote:
746 watts of electrical power can accomplish one horse power of energy (provided there is no waste). When using a gasoline engine to produce electricity in a generator or alternator (wattage/power) typical efficiencies for the Chinese built 3,000 watt class gensets rarely exceed 70%. The other 30% is lost due to the conversion of chemical energy (fuel) into heat energy then into mechanical energy and finally into electrical energy.

Actually the 30% loss is related entirely to losses with in the electric generator head itself not the chemical conversion of the gasoline (which is a whole 'nother topic). The generator head losses come mainly from 5 areas:

The windings have resistance and produce heat.

There are magnetic losses in the iron and coupling of the magnetic stator and rotor.

There are aerodynamic losses--especially from the fan that cools the generator (it takes energy to move air).

The power to energize the field windings and run the AVR.

Frictional losses in the bearings.

The efficiency curve of a generator head is something of a bell curve (highest in the middle). At light loads, the aerodynamic, field, and frictional losses are significant. At heavy loads the magnetic losses go up rapidly, and the hotter the generator head gets, the higher the winding resistance. So if you plot efficiency versus load, at some point it starts to fall off rapidly when you're near (or have exceeded) the designed power output of the generator.

The "chemical losses" are a whole different topic and related to how much gasoline is required for the engine to produce a given amount of horsepower. A gallon of gasoline has 115,000 Btus of energy. 1 horsepower, for one hour, requires only 2545 Btus.

So in a perfect situation, A GALLON OF GAS CAN PRODUCE A WHOPPING 45 HORSEPOWER FOR ONE HOUR AND PRODUCE 33,000 WATTS OF ELECTRICITY!

But in our generators, we get only about 5 - 6 Kwh from a gallon gas. So the total efficiency is a dismal 15-18%. The other 80+% of the energy is wasted.

Much of that lost energy is heat. The curious might want to look up cogeneration where the waste heat is used to say heat the building an off-grid generator is located in. In that way, you can get total efficiencies approaching 90%. But that only works if you have a use for all that heat. Trying to run your RV A/C unit in the summer, you have the opposite problem.

In round numbers, a typical 200cc engine like the one used in the 3500 Watt Champion uses about 0.5 gallons/hour at rated load. So we're using about 22 horsepower worth of gas to produce only about 5 or 6 horsepower worth of energy. So the engine itself, is only about 25% efficient, the other 75% is lost as heat or unburned fuel in the exhaust.

So we take our 25% efficient gas motor and hook it to our 70% efficient generator head, and we get a total efficiency of about 17%.

As others have suggested, there are clearly some marketing games being played with generator ratings. This has been confirmed by Consumer Reports and it's also obvious if you look closely at the specs of enough different models. The Honda EB3000, with the exact 200cc engine the Chinese have cloned in the Champion, is rated at 2600 watts continuous and 3000 watts max. That's about 13 continuous watts per cc of displacement.

If you check the rest of Honda's small generators you'll find they're in the range of 12-14 continuous watts per cc of displacement. Yet the Champion is somehow rated 35% higher at 17.5 watts per cc?

I know from previous testing the Honda generators are conservatively rated. I suspect they're designed to meet their specs even at high altitude and high temperatures. They rate their GX200 (200cc) engine at 5.5 NET horsepower versus the 6.5 HP used by the Chinese for their cloned version of the same engine.

There are really three issues with a genset's maximum power:

1 - How much horsepower does the engine REALLY produce?

2 - How efficient is the generator head at full load (i.e. what is the maximum power it can produce before the engine drops well below the governed speed or the voltage drops significantly out of regulation)?

3 - How much power can the genset produce continuously without overheating or suffering some other problem?

The price of copper is through the roof. So I suspect, even in China, they're trying to use as little of it as possible in their inexpensive generator heads. In fact, some may even have aluminum windings. I'm also betting their GX200 clone engines are no more powerful than the Honda version? So I'm guessing the Champion C46540 is good for around 3200-3500 max and 2700 - 3000 watts continuous.

But stay tuned for my formal tests!

[Old___Slow]

Old & Slow wrote:

professor95 wrote:
I have no so called "bone" to pick with DuroPower.

I have no first hand experience with their products.

Nothing would please me more than to welcome them as a new, customer oriented supplier of available and durable Chinese built gensets at a value price.

Every time a new brand appears this forum has endeavored to investigate and evaluate both the company and product. The forum has become in many ways a Chinese Genset Consumer Testing and Report Group.

We have in the past two years identified companies and brands that one should use caution in dealing with.

The early Nikota was identified as less than satisfactory for RV use - a few weeks later it went bankrupt.

ELIM International, the company that got the ball rolling with the ELM3000, dropped the ball on customer service and warranty issues. They also changed to a new supplier and did not offer the full wattage to a single outlet. The forum identified the problems and it became buyer beware.

When Champion came on the scene their initial reviews were extremely low. They did not have a full power at 120 volt provision and used a questionable circuit breaker configuration. Ironically, Champion took note, changed their product and came on strong with customer service to the RV community.

Harbor Freight, Cummings and Homier all passed muster with their JD built 3,000 watt units. Warranty and service were acceptable, but sometimes slow.

PowerPro and PowerWise also made the top 5 list on the forum. But again, once the stores (PepBoys and COSTCO) were out of the warranty & service loop some issues developed.

UST was interesting. Little additional data has been collected. Same is true for the Big Lot's brand of a similar genset.

The Chinese built Onan 3,500 watt Homesite is as expected getting good reviews. Backed by the Onan/Cummings dealership network, warranty, parts and service should be top-notch. As noted, buyers are paing a higher price for the name and network.

Now DuroPower is on the scene. They have a really good web site with an extensive listing of different models available. They have a broad range of parts pictured on-line. Outward appearances make one believe they are a massive distributor with warehouses of gensets ready to ship. Feedback from folks on the forum is beginning to suggest a different picture about the company. The info is being shared because WE collectively make up the largest single support and evaluation group for Chinese gensets in the world. If we identify a good company and product, we need to share it so that others can benefit from our experiences. Same is true if we find one less than good.

That's what it is all about, guys. Their ain't no Chevy vs.
Ford or gas vs. diesel wars on this forum!

Professor95/Others:

Your desire to investigate the Chinese gensets being offered on the market has been a good one. Because of that desire, so much important information in now available on this thread. Like you state, it's been a great learning experience. The background you have in learning (PHD) and teaching 40 plus years in the field of Electronics and shared with all is so appreciated.

DuroPower:

I feel compelled to share what I know about buying this brand. The unit was ordered and delivered with no problems. It was delivered by FexEx with no damage. The unit was well packed from the factory. Testing began in a newly built (yellow, yet to have black trim for finish) Gen House. The DP3500EC was unpacked with no damage to the unit but a slight crack in the 12v battery caused a small leak. A Gas Generator Key Starter was ordered. The part was shipped the day it was ordered, just like the genset. When the part was opened, the part is not as described. Later, DP responded and offered a replacement. DuroPower (the mfg) offers many high end Gensets and a wide variety of Equipment. Yes, it is important to have CS, however, it is also to be taken into consideration, what is the original cost. The Cost of the DuroPower Electric Start was a prime factor in buying this brand. I may never need service in the one year period. My DP3500EC has proven to be excellent in all respects in shop testing. Someday perhaps it will be tested with my MH.

Champion:

At this time my MH is powered with the Champion C46540 with great success. IMHO, it should have never been placed in the factory genset compartment, even my owners manual states it should not be placed in a factory compartment. The manual also states the genset needs 2' of space all around. I have retro-fitted my compartment with simple slides and it can be pulled out and operated with near 2' of air space and that is ok by the manual. Also, the fuel tank has been relocated and not in the genset compartment. The main problem I find with the genset placed in the Factory Compartment is dirt from road travel covering genny. If operating the unit on the road, dirt and water would inter the genhead. My compartment is not designed for the Champion. My beloved little Yellow and Black genny must always be clean and beautiful to please it's owner, me. Professor95 has placed his Champion on a rear carrier and I plan to follow his lead perhaps someday.

Professor95, thanks for offering all your time and knowledge concerning 3000w Chinese gensets.

Floyd
O&S

Generator Guy/ Others

The new man on the block will bump this thread. New blood for the tired and worn. Hope we do not have a Sacrificial Lamb.

This thread has given a new life to me personally. At my age I just didn't think new stuff could bump the old noggin into causing any activity in the old bones. How wrong that thinking. Anyway, so many new folks have helped me along, on what was a lonely road.

The old OEM genset needed a less expensive replacement. I had been told by the OEM rep that their Genset could not be replaced by a Chinese Portable model in the factory compartment in my MH. Well, I'm to old to argue, so I just proceed to do my thing. Ended up with a Champion C46540. Then the problems began. After placing the Champ in the compartment I found cooling was a major issue. Our MrWizard had stated no push/pull or both, fan would work in my compartment. He was right on the money. Complete retrofitting of the compartment was needed. I did relocate the fuel tank and muffler to make the operation of the genset safe for use. One kind regular poster to this thread understood my frustration and decided to offer help. Brad is a vary talented guy. Yesterday he gave me the better part of the day designing a retrofit solution for my factory genset compartment. Finally my problems are over. Brad installed the Champion C46540 in the factory genset compartment in his 5'er with great success with a 55Db sound level.

This thread has a 5 star rating because of all who contribute, so thank you all.

Floyd
O&S

[billmx43]

Thank you for the input!

[generator-guy]

professor95 wrote:
Yes, there is a cheap, simple and dirty solution. I pondered on making such a circuit, but decided it was not really that necessary. If you are determined to do it...

If AC out on the genset should rise so will the DC voltage out of the adapter and the voltage to the base of the transistor. When the voltage on the base of the transistor hits +.7 VDC or higher, the transistor conducts and supply voltage flows from the collector to emitter. This keys the relay which grounds the line going to the low oil shutdown switch.

I'm not sure that would protect anything electronic from an AVR failure that caused high voltage? The reason is the generator has considerable rotating inertia and takes a while to shut down from when the spark is shut off (i.e. the low oil switch) on the engine. The too-high voltage would be around long enough to do damage before the generator slowed enough to reduce it.

Instead, I would suggest a circuit that opens a high powered relay instantly disconnecting the load (which also could be used to for starting the generator unloaded and unloading it for shutdown) if the voltage exceeds a certain value. The trick is not having it trip on brief transients. If people are interested in such a circuit, let me know (I'm an Electrical Engineer by education and profession)?

A much easier option for the average Joe might be to use a couple of high-end powerstrips that have advanced surge protection? Panamax and others make power strips that will disconnect the load during overvoltage conditions. Most any computer UPS also does this. So any sensitive loads could be plugged into such a device that is, in turn, plugged into the generator.

This could all get a bit tricky, however, as I've found that generator powered circuits are much more prone to nasty voltage spikes than regular home power. This is because the national power grid has a VERY low impedance. So anything that dumps a brief spike of current back into your home power wiring tends to largely get "absorbed" by the huge power grid (i.e. all of your loads, your neighbor's loads, etc.).

But when you're running your own little tiny "grid" from a generator, and something dumps a spike of current (like turning off an inductive load such as a motor) there isn't anywhere near as much load to absorb the spike. So high quality surge suppressors are a good idea anyway for anything sensitive when you're running on generator power.

There have been posts about, for example, the digital controls on microwave ovens freaking out on generator power, and these spikes are one explanation why. I've had a few things fail on generator power. Using my Fluke isolated Scope I've observed voltage spikes over 400 volts when the refrigerator compressor turns off while on generator power. While on line power it's just a little blip--more like 140 volts.

Light bulbs, motors, heating appliances, and those sorts of loads are unlikely to be bothered by brief spikes or overvoltage conditions. But anything electronic could be either temporarily glitched or even permanently damaged by big spikes or an AVR failure or other overvoltage condition.

It IS a good idea to start and shut down a generator with the load disconnected. It's even better to give the generator a few minutes to warm up before putting much of a load on it--especially if it's in cold weather.

Engine clearances--including the bearings, piston, rings, etc.--are made to fit right at operating temperature. When the engine is cold, the clearances are typically very "sloppy" and hence the engine is much more prone to wear and damage. Plus, the splash lubrication system doesn't likely have much of the thick cold oil in all the places it needs to be in a just-started cold engine. So it's best to give it some time before dumping a big load on it--especially motor loads with high starting currents like refrigerators, AC units, etc.

I'm not sure about AVR damage, but shutting the generator down loaded may possibly damage or "glitch" some digital devices with the gradually falling voltage. So it's also best to disconnect the load before shutting down. You want it disconnected before starting it again anyway, so why not do it before shutting down? If everything is connected through a single 30 amp twistlock plug, it's fairly easy to just use the plug as the disconnect (assuming you're not using a remote start/stop panel).

Once it's fully broken in, I'll be doing some load tests, voltage regulation tests and more on my Champion. I'll let others here know what I find out. I have lots of lab-grade instrumentation to measure the voltage, current, watts, power factor, harmonic distortion (waveform quality), output impedance, engine and generator head temperatures, etc.

[blkfe]

Hey Generator-Guy,
Welcome to the forums. I must say, thats quite the "first" post.
It's too bad Duropower is struggling so much with customer service and such.
I, too, own a champion product and am happy with it as well. I am currently in the market to purchase a similar unit with electric start. The Duropower and PowerMax units are very similar tho the Champion electric start model but are hundreds less. I am leaning away from Champion for this reason. They are a great unit, I just can't see $400.00 for a starter and battery.
That being said. I have heard through reliable sources that Santa has a Chinese generator. Look where he lives..............
Brad

[Wgeorge11]

Welcome aboard Generator-guy. Looks like you've really been saving up your lurkers energy to generate this great essay. I'm sure you'll bring plenty of fresh ideas to this thread and give the Professor and the Wizard a break from those of us who are less talented, and more dependent.

[generator-guy]

OK... I've been lurking long enough. I'd like to share some info on Duropower, inverter models, noise, reliability, prices and more...

Duropower has some nice looking products, but I have no personal experience since I've twice tried to buy one and gotten nothing but the run around. It seems they promise fast delivery, but after they charge your credit card, you find out they're waiting for a shipment from China and it will be another month or two until you actually get what you paid for.

The first time I tried dealing with "Generators Direct" (generatorsdirect.net) for a Duropower and got the run around. The second time I tried to buy direct from Duropower and, again, was led to believe the product was in stock when it really was not. No thanks!

So, after reading many positive things here, and elsewhere, I picked up a Champion C46540 from the local autoparts store on sale for $299. For the price, it's a steal!

For those of you debating an inverter model versus the Champion C46540 that's really an Apples and Oranges discussion. First of all, yes they can be a bit quieter, but inverters have 5 major disadvantages--some few seem to be aware of:

1 - Price. They're typically at least twice as expensive as a name brand conventional unit of the same power rating and 3 - 8 times more expensive than a Chinese conventional unit of the same power class.

2 - Motor Starting. With the exception of expensive the Yamaha "boost" models, most inverter generators have very limited motor starting ability. This means they may well NOT run your A/C unit, a big home refrigerator, larger power tools, etc. They just shut off instead. Starting loads can be 5 or 10 times the running power and it's often enough to trip the sensitive electronic protection circuits inverter models have.

3 - Efficiency under heavy load. While inverter models tend to use less fuel at light loads, because they throttle the engine down to a lower RPM, they tend to use MORE fuel at heavier loads because there are added losses in the inverter circuitry. So once the engine is at full RPM in an inverter unit, it's likely using MORE fuel than a conventional unit of a similar size would.

4 - Complexity. While conventional generators are rather simple devices and hard to damage. Inverter models have significantly more to go wrong and are more fragile.

5 - Noise at heavier loads. While they're quieter when they're throttled down, many inverter units are not much quieter when they're at 50% or more load and running at full speed compared to conventional models with similar power ratings. So it's not fair to compare an EU1000i throttled down to a 3500 watt Champion at full load. The $2000 Honda EU3000is, for example, is only a bit quieter than the Champion at full load.

More on price: Even the bargain Chinese inverter models capable of 3000 watts are $1000 and up and still have less power and a lot less motor starting capability than the 3500/4000 watt C46540 for $300. To get comparable motor starting you'd have to buy something like the Yamaha EF3000iSEB for $2200. And it still puts out 15% less power.

More on motor loads: A conventional generator uses the rotating mass of the engine and generator rotor to start heavy loads. A big spike of current can't instantly stop the generator--it has a lot of inertia. So it just slows down briefly and still starts the load.

With the exception of the "boost" models from Yamaha, inverter generators have very little extra capacity beyond their rating. They can't really use the inertia of the engine and rotor to start heavy loads. The transistors and magnetic transformer in the inverter limit the peak power.

As proof, a friend has a Honda EU2000i and it won't even start his home refrigerator even if that's the only thing connected! It just shuts off. He bought the little $199 1200 watt Champion conventional generator, and guess what, it starts his big refrigerator just fine! So even though it's only rated at 1200 watts (1500 watts peak) versus the more powerful 2000 watt Honda, it actually has GREATER motor starting capability! And yeah, you could buy FIVE of them for the price of the Honda.

As to efficiency, the inverters again come in second place under heavier loads. At roughly around 50% load or higher they're usually running at max RPM. From that point on, they're LESS efficient than a conventional generator. Why? Because they take AC power, convert it (at a slight loss) to DC, and then convert it back to AC through lots of high power electronics (at a significant loss). Inverters put off heat--just look at the big heat sinks and/or fans on them. Heat is energy. More energy requires more fuel.

So if you're going to run your generator at 50% or more load most of the time, an inverter model may well use MORE fuel than a conventional model. If it's going to to mostly be lightly loaded, an inverter model may be more efficient.

As to complexity, there's lots more to go wrong with an inverter model. They're using fragile power semiconductors (transistors) to turn DC current into 60 cycle AC current. At lower power levels (say less than 1000 watts) that's not too tricky. But at 2000 or 3000 watts, it starts to get a lot harder (and expensive) to do reliably. Power semiconductors don't like to be overloaded. A brief short circuit or current spike can easily destroy them. So inverter models need even more circuitry to try and protect the inverter from damage (the same circuitry that shuts them down trying to start motors, etc.).

It's also a myth that ALL inverter units put out cleaner power. Many (like the Duropower models) put out a "modified sine wave" or "modified square wave" just like cheap 12 volt inverters do. That waveform is actually WORSE than most conventional generators. Only the "pure sine" models potentially have a cleaner waveform. And guess what, they're even less efficient than their cheaper square wave counterparts. Generating clean sine waves from DC isn't a very efficient process.

In contrast, the electrical side of conventional generators are just about bulletproof. At the worst, you might trip a circuit breaker or stall the engine if you overload them. But, with an inverter, brief spikes of current, wiring errors, difficult loads, etc, can cause the inverter to fail. And if it does, the generator is useless without some very expensive repairs.

As to noise... Someone said 3db more is twice as loud, and that's not true. It means the sound has twice the energy, but subjectively, it takes an increase of 10db to be considered "twice as loud". 3db is only a bit louder. 1db is the smallest increment most people can distinguish.

And remember that inverter units are often noise rated at light load when they're running at low RPM. At 50% or 75% load, they're typically only a few db quieter than the Champion. And as I just explained, that's not much difference.

Finally, I smile when I read about people worried about how many hours they can put on a Chinese generator. Yeah, if it fails in 20 hours, that's not good. But Champion, at least, seems to stand behind their units and warranty. So you're probably covered for that sort of thing for at least a year?

So how long do you expect a good generator to last that gets lot of use? 4 years? OK. So let's look at that...

You can buy the least expensive 3500 watt Honda, the EG3500, for $1300. Or, you could buy a new Champion every year, for 4 years, and dump it (or keep it as spare) when the warranty expires for $1200 and have $100 left over for a night on the town. You'd have a brand new generator, always under warranty, ever year for less than the cost of the Honda.

Ok, so Honda's are overpriced. Let's go to the local big box store and get a no-name generator with a name brand engine for say $900 instead. You can still buy THREE Champions for that price. Will the no-name unit last at least 3 times longer? Probably not.

If I was living at some remote research station off the grid at the North Pole, I'd probably buy a couple name brand generators (one as a spare) with pressurized lubrication, an oil filter, etc (i.e a commercial-grade Generac). But using a generator for casual RV/camping and/or for backup use at home, is it really worth spending 3 to 7 times as much?

As others have pointed out, even some of the big names, like Onan and McCulloch, have started putting their name on Chinese units. So unless you're buying something with say a Honda, Generac or B&S Industrial grade engine, it might not be much better than a Champion?

Chinese generators should be considered "disposable" if you can't get parts and support. I liked the fact DuroPower has spare parts on their website. But, in reality, it seems to be more marketing than reality. But even if you have to throw away a Chinese generator or two, you're still likely money ahead of the guy who bought the name brand model with similar specs?

And, while I haven't had to contact them personally, it seems Champion stands behind their products in the USA and is quick to answer the phone, ship out parts, etc? So, to me, unless it's a "mission critical" application, it's a no-brainer?

If you're REALLY worried about Chinese quality, just buy TWO and keep one as a spare? You still have money in the bank compare to any of the name brand options.