3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[MrWizard]

duplicate

[MrWizard]

floyd

I would say the risk of spark, exactly matches that of a build in Onan, its the same technology and the brushes are located in the same place on the end of the shaft

what changes any 'EXPLOSIVE' ODDS is the greater risk of fumes collecting, in a compartment with a gas tank, remove the tank, keep the liquid fuel 'out of any enclosure' keep things ventilated, NO fumes ,NO danger

the total chance at danger includes more than ( odds of a spark ) which are pretty low

its winter, its dark before quiet hrs, run the genny in a dark area, watch the end of the genny head see if you can see anything when its running

[MrWizard]

the champion is a pure sinewave generator

if you put an inverter genny on the O scope you will find out it is stepped wave

PWM and stepped it is very well controlled and HONDA for example as done an excellent job of finding the 'sweet spot' a step freq/cycle that is not a common harmonic of broadcast RF

motor driven feild brush winding magnetos (as the used to be called ) produce pure sine waves, its the same technology the utility compaines have been using for over 100 years

[mitt]

generator-guy wrote:


There are a few types of brushless alternators. The most common ones do not use an electronic AVR like the Champion does. Most of them either use permanent magnets for the exciter

Thanks for the summary. I bet the proforce 3750 uses permanent magnets... From their manual:

"EXCITING THE GENERATOR:
If there is a loss of residual magnetism (voltage will not
build up), it may be necessary to re-excite the unit.
NOTE: Your generator is a brushless unit. Please contact
your local service center or the Powermate Corporation
Product Service Department for assistance with exciting
your generator."

How do the Onan homesites regulate their voltage?

When will the majority of everyday appliances (fridge, furnace, etc) use digital controls that require low THD (pure sine invertors)? I imagine it can't be too far away, since everything from toys to engine management systems use microprocessors for control today.

mitt

[Old___Slow]

MrWizard wrote:

mitt wrote:
Has anyone figured out how the Proforce generators regulate their voltage?

The online retailers say:

"Brushless alternator to regulate voltage, guarding your load against power surges during generator operation"

Isn't this counter to the champion, that uses a brushless and a AVR?

mitt

YES !

give the man a gold star, ( good study habits )

the brush less type, really is the capacitor type, with more distortion in the wave from, the feild brush type wtih AVR is a superior design

MrWiz

It is well known to you that I know litle to nothing about these things, however, you do have folks like me that are trying to learn a thing or two about 3000w Chinese gensets. The info' is not only interesting but somewhat necessary in good and safe operation of these great little power plants. So one more time please. In the operation of my C46540 is there any spark to worry about that could be a safely issue anywhere on the little fellow.. You stated on another post that these field brushes on the Champion are different than like a power drill. That's pretty 101 stuff for a Novice like me.
Thanks for trying to help the Old Man Riva.

Floyd

[generator-guy]

mitt wrote:
Isn't this counter to the champion, that uses a brushless and a AVR?

Also, just to be clear, the Champion does have brushes that power the field on the rotor. The brushes are connected to the output of the AVR.

[MrWizard]

mitt wrote:
Has anyone figured out how the Proforce generators regulate their voltage?

The online retailers say:

"Brushless alternator to regulate voltage, guarding your load against power surges during generator operation"

Isn't this counter to the champion, that uses a brushless and a AVR?

mitt

YES !

give the man a gold star, ( good study habits )

the brush less type, really is the capacitor type, with more distortion in the wave from, the field brush type with AVR is a superior design

champion uses BRUSHES and the AVR, it is NOT brush less

[generator-guy]

mitt wrote:
Has anyone figured out how the Proforce generators regulate their voltage?

The online retailers say:

"Brushless alternator to regulate voltage, guarding your load against power surges during generator operation"

Isn't this counter to the champion, that uses a brushless and a AVR?

There are a few types of brushless alternators. The most common ones do not use an electronic AVR like the Champion does. Most of them either use permanent magnets for the exciter or a diode/capacitor arrangement to power the field. Most use some form of inherent regulation that's related to the magnetic design, capacitor, and other techniques.

At least some of the Honda generator heads are brushless and use the capacitor scheme. On the plus side, such a design has no brushes to wear out or create electrical noise. There's also no electronic AVR to fail.

On the downside, brushless units generally have inferior voltage regulation and the brushes are a source of electrical noise (they're also a form of sparks that can ignite combustible vapors). Also, it's been my experience, the brushless units have more of a "square" waveform than the brush type generators. For some loads that can be a problem.

[Old___Slow]

magic43 wrote:
To properly determine Load 1 and Load 2 and i1 vs i2, you have to take the ambidexter thermostropter and measure the center tap of the ampitillerator. You divide the difference by your wife's age and multiply the sum by the number of children that you don't have.......ho, ho, ho.

Hey guys I ain't no "lectrican but is the ans 0/0/ That's ok if I'm wrong accourding to DW, always am:B

[magic43]

To properly determine Load 1 and Load 2 and i1 vs i2, you have to take the ambidexter thermostropter and measure the center tap of the ampitillerator. You divide the difference by your wife's age and multiply the sum by the number of children that you don't have.......ho, ho, ho.

[mitt]

Has anyone figured out how the Proforce generators regulate their voltage?

The online retailers say:

"Brushless alternator to regulate voltage, guarding your load against power surges during generator operation"

Isn't this counter to the champion, that uses a brushless and a AVR?

mitt

[generator-guy]

mitt wrote:
I am a mech engr by degree, but a power electrical engr in my 9-5 job, and I agree that the current in each leg of a 120/240 circuit is different, assuming you have a 120V load attached to one of them.

Thanks. I agree. If the loads are not balanced and equal there is a current (i2 in the diagram) flowing in the common (neutral) connection. If i2 is nonzero it means i1 cannot equal i3 according to Kirchoff's 2nd law. This is true for a perfect AC or DC voltage source, and it's also true for a pair of reactive generator windings with resistance, inductance and capacitance--despite the Professor's claims to the contrary.

If the Professor can prove how i1 and i3 are always equal, regardless of the values of LOAD 1 and LOAD 2, he'd be the one proving Mr Kirchoff wrong.

The issue here is the two identical but independent stator (output) windings share a common field winding. And the current in that field winding is controlled by the AVR based on the voltage of only one of the two stator windings. So the other winding is not properly regulated except when the windings are in parallel in 120 volt mode.

[mitt]

I am a mech engr by degree, but a power electrical engr in my 9-5 job, and I agree that the current in each leg of a 120/240 circuit is different, assuming you have a 120V load attached to one of them.

mitt

[generator-guy]

professor95 wrote:

generator-guy wrote:
professor95 wrote:

If you take a close look at the schematic of the C46540, you will note the AVR does indeed only sample a small part of one winding. But, that is all that is necessary. In the 240 volt mode the current will be consistent at all points of the circuit - which are series interconnected.

Thanks for your post, and it's interesting you had different results. Like I said at the end of my review, "your mileage may vary". I can only speak for my particular Champion.

But the above statement you made is simply not true. Yes the two windings are in series in 240 volt mode, but the currents are NOT consistent "at all points of the circuit" as you suggest unless you're running a 240 volt load, or two identical 120 volt loads with one on each leg. The windings are in series but with essentially a center tap. I think you neglected to consider that in your statement above?

Well, if my statement is not true, then Mr. Ohm and Mr. Kirchhoff really screwed up when they made their discoveries and laws.

Now, if the winding(s) in question were purely resistive, you might have a good point to argue with the center tap being present. But, they are not purely resistive. You have induction and capacitance added into the mix. Thus, what you are looking at is a RLC circuit. The current in a series RLC circuit is the same through every component. The current has exactly the same value at the same time in all parts of the circuit – even with a center tap.

Analysis of RLC circuits can be pretty complex requiring phasor algebra to fully analyze them. This is not the place to delve into all the complexities and formulas required.

If this is a subject that you are not familiar with, I suggest you enroll in one of my Fundamentals of AC Circuits classes. I will be teaching one next quarter, which begins in March.

Respectfully, I'm an electrical engineer by both education and profession. I'm very familiar with RLC circuits but that's not relevant to what I'm talking about here. Basic current distribution in the circuit in question applies for both AC or DC analysis of the circuit and indeed is dictated by Kirchoff's laws.

The circuit we're talking about can be simplified to the diagram below. Your original claim is that i1 and i3 will always be equal (your exact quote was that the current would be "consistent at all points of the circuit") because the windings are in series. The simple fact is if LOAD 1 and LOAD 2 are not equal, the currents i1 and i3 are not equal.

And that means the current in each of the two independent windings are not equal. And that causes voltage regulation problems because the AVR connection is only monitoring the current in ONE winding.

[generator-guy]

mitt wrote:
Was there a consensus that the Onan Homesite line is the same brand labeled unit as the Champion? If so, does the Homesite line use AVR? I cannot find any mention of it, and I cannot find any wiring diagrams for the Onans.

The Onan Homesites (which are way overpriced in my opinion) very likely use an AVR just like most of the other similar Chinese models. The lack of detailed information on the Onan website is rather disconcerting considering the price. This is what I mean when I said Champion stands alone in the amount of information they provide.

But it's also a vote of confidence that several big USA generator companies, like Onan, are comfortable slapping their name on the same basic Chinese generators we're talking about in this thread. If they were total junk, they'd want to avoid the headaches.