3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[MrWizard]

Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays to ALL

[Old___Slow]

toprudder wrote:
FWIW, the power from the grid is anything but a perfect sine wave (if such a thing really exists!). In the work I do, one of the tests we run is to measure the current waveform of a product, to determine the current harmonics that are put back into the electrical supply. We can't perform this test using the power straight from the grid, we have to use a solid state power supply to synthesize the AC waveform. The grid just is not clean enough.

There are many different types of transients that can occur in the AC system. Some are generated by problems upstream (like lightening induced surges) and some are generated more local, such as inductive loads switching off and causing arcs across contactor terminals. Obviously, if you are not connected to the grid, then lightening induced surges are less likely to happen, but as generator-guy mentioned, inductive loads switching off can cause more problems when operating from a generator due to the higher source impedance.

Bob R.

I ask my guy, VP of a Power Generator/AC Transmission Utility yesterday, something about this vary question in relation to my little Champ.
Wow, this is vary interesting for a novice. More or less he states this unknown name Genny-guy, over states a problem. Whatever that means. Inductive loads/higher source loads have many variables generator to generator. HIS words not mine. As for my little Champ, he states, looks ok to him. But the sien wave will be ok for most All general use needs. As to spikes rise when shut down, could be 2/3 seconds, what ever that means. So this Dissertation and brainstorming continues and is proving to be vary interesting. Even to a novice. Now, my guy also explained how harmonic distortion causes heat. My question remained since 'Jconatser' posted a panel diagram of 3 phase service and being out of phase. When I got to the 3 wires being out of phase, I ducked out. Was lost as a goose in fog. So yesterday, my guy drew my a little diagram of the 360 degree rotation of the windings (stator). One with single phase winding, then other with three phase windings, all on the windings in the 360 degree rotation around the rotor.. All with a sien wave independent of the other but relating to each other creating the out of phase that gave me the.:h (So simple to you guys) But most likely with a slight difference in output. Anyway he stated one AVR should give that middle wire in my little genny a ok output, if in fact the AVR in only connected to one pole. If I have stated the story correctly.. This is all from a rank amateur (me)so take it with a grain of salt. I only say this to let you guys know, us in the 'novice class' have a great deal of interest in what the pros' of high learning, debate. Please continue like another poster has stated.
My 2 cents worth.

PS: My-guy states it's pretty common for these problems to be over stated by some. EE's?

OP's offering nest, I will listen and be silent.:B

[Wgeorge11]

Let's see. Just how many of these little 2w lamps can I light up with my 3000w Champ? While I try to figure it out, you all have a Merry Christmas.

[toprudder]

FWIW, the power from the grid is anything but a perfect sine wave (if such a thing really exists!). In the work I do, one of the tests we run is to measure the current waveform of a product, to determine the current harmonics that are put back into the electrical supply. We can't perform this test using the power straight from the grid, we have to use a solid state power supply to synthesize the AC waveform. The grid just is not clean enough.

There are many different types of transients that can occur in the AC system. Some are generated by problems upstream (like lightening induced surges) and some are generated more local, such as inductive loads switching off and causing arcs across contactor terminals. Obviously, if you are not connected to the grid, then lightening induced surges are less likely to happen, but as generator-guy mentioned, inductive loads switching off can cause more problems when operating from a generator due to the higher source impedance.

Bob R.

[Old___Slow]

IMHO comes this statement.

This statement concerns Dr. Randy Agee to us 'Professor95'. Some folks have a inherent characteristics within their personality as a result of a lifetime CAREER in teaching (I know one, the mother of my children), they (teachers) come across as anger or displeasure when students do not listen to WELL established practices, knowledge and just plain old direction. While many meaningful discoveries have been made by someone ignoring "good Advice" and blazing a totally new path and thinking outside of the box, against all current knowledge and theories, those who do so USUALLY have a BASIS for challenging the establishment's quota before forging forward. Most Teachers of higher learning have this opinion "why do you think you can succeed (or be right) when those before you did(were) not? Thus when a student questions, he damn well better be able to defend his position and present a VALID argument as to why he should be MORE correct. As stated to me, sort of like the "proof" thing we labored over in HS Geometery? (Part of the above I receive through a independent souse.)
Now, just yesterday I had the good pleasure of having the Vice President of a large Utility for dinner at my home. Actually. he and his wife, both, cut their eye teeth on the subject at hand. This subject was the topic of the day.
The Professor being the main focus. Credentials do count. The comments of Professor95 and others were went through with a fine tooth comb. Good to have a second, third opinion, right? Also the many diagrams posted were evaluated. My two Chinese genset were in the mix. Long story make short, the professor95 is right on the money on all comments. And, the Champion genset should be ok even though it might have the one AVR, but he added the subject could be opened for additional investigation. He gave his own reason but me being the novice I can not explain his idea. Wow, and not that prof' in any way needed a comment from old man riva, (river)

Do I have permission to add a funny on myself? Ok, thanks. Here we go. In a school of higher learning I had a old Professor, age in late seventies, who used one of those old hearing aids. The big box was always weighting down his front shirt pocket. One day I stood and moved my lips without making a sound. Over and over. The old professor started beating the hell out of that box on his chest, more and more, he tried the volume control, no help. Finally I spoke, class dismissed. The sound of laughter shook the old building. One more, I was always falling down the stairs for attention. Once right in front of the most beautiful girl in school. Me and the girl were "King and Queen of the Prom"
I agree, this guy is full of himself and other stuff too!
Marry Christmas, Professor95.

Floyd
Old & Slow

[MrWizard]

the 'current topic' is about generator wave form, NOT surge suppression, I have surge suppression as i'm sure other people do, your much more likely to get a high voltage spike transient on shore power from from the utility company than you are from a generator, frequency will vary more with load changes than the utility company, however, the shift is likely to be plus or minus 2hz with a low 58hz and a high of 62hz, this is NOT going to hurt your electronics or any thing else, although your A/C blower and compressor will run a few percent slower or faster, but NOT enough for you tell with out a TACHcometer on the motors, I don't know any body that can hear the difference in an A/C compressor running 1140 rpm 60hz or rpm 1102 rpm on 58hz.

I can hear one bogg on low line voltage,

[sidst]

Generator-guy

I agree with your warnings about fire hazards and electrical problems with the small generators. Logically, an engine fire is no more likely in a chinese generator than in an Onan but you're probably right that if a fire did occur insurance would refuse to pay. Insurance companies are notorious for trying not to pay if they can get away with it. Just ask Hurricane Katrina homeowners. Its also logical that a $300 generator will not have as stable a voltage, frequency or waveform as a multibillion dollar power system, nor will it have as many protective systems built in. I have surge suppressors on all my home electronics and if you're not using them on a small generator then you're asking for trouble.

I appreciate your warnings and well written info but it seems some people don't want to heed your warnings. That's their decision, you tried, they didn't listen, just let it go. This has been a tremendous forum and I've learned a lot in the 2 years I've been following it. I hope the info can continue to flow for quite some time.

[MrWizard]

generator-guy wrote:

MrWizard wrote:
the champion is a pure sinewave generator

if you put an inverter genny on the O scope you will find out it is stepped wave

PWM and stepped it is very well controlled and HONDA for example as done an excellent job of finding the 'sweet spot' a step freq/cycle that is not a common harmonic of broadcast RF

motor driven field brush winding magnetos (as the used to be called ) produce pure sine waves, its the same technology the utility companies have been using for over 100 years

I'm not trying to split hairs here, but I think it's important people understand nearly all small generators produce a distorted sine wave. Mitt brings up a valid point that more and more devices use electronic controls and have a small microprocessor in them. My microwave oven, for example, gets it brain scrambled when running off the generator and the furnace turns off.

The Champion waveform has a significantly higher peak voltage than a pure sine wave does when it's heavily loaded. A 125 volt sine wave should have a peak voltage of 177 volts but the Champion measures 200 volts. If you look at the wave form it's more narrow and "pointy" at the top than it should be (almost like a triangle wave).

This can be important because that high peak voltage can trigger some surge suppressors into activating when there really isn't any surge. It can also cause high operating voltages in certain kinds of electronic devices.

Technically a "pure" sine wave is one with essentially no distortion. I posted the numbers several pages back, but from memory, the Champion measured a few percent of distortion when lightly loaded increasing to 12% or so when it's heavily loaded. That's not very pure but not horrible either.

While they're the same basic technology there are significant differences between the generators in power plants and the ones in home generators. The number of poles, magnetic design, how the coils are configured and wound, etc. all affect the quality of the waveform.

I haven't looked at a Honda inverter generator's waveform but I have looked at a Kipor Sinemaster and a few regular brushless generators. Over all, I'd say the Kipor had the most pure sine wave followed by the Champion and then the brushless models.

There are two broad categories of inverter generators. Those claiming to produce pure sine waves, and the "Modified Sine Wave" models (sometimes called "digital") that really use a modified square wave. These models typically have more waveform distortion than a conventional generator--even a brushless model.

There are other problems with the quality of generator power. First, the mechanical governor on the generator engine can't respond instantly when a load is removed or applied. So the engine speed is not 100% stable. This causes the frequency to deviate from 60hz--especially when large loads are removed or applied. It may also cause voltage peaks or dips--especially on models without an electronic AVR. The inverter models are largely immune from these problems.

The other big problem is when an inductive load is turned off there can be a fairly large voltage spike. When you're getting power off the national grid the spike is absorbed by the massive power grid. But with a small generator, with only a few loads, it's going to have a much bigger impact. Those big spikes can glitch electronic equipment--like my Microwave oven.

The above are the reasons why Champion and other generator manufactures recommend running sensitive electronic equipment from a UPS or at least a surge protector. You can't expect "power grid quality" electricity from a small residential grade generator.

well my MW works just fine , in fact it's brand new "processor controlled" and works perfectly, so does my 8month OLD HDTV and my 30 month old laptop PC. and all the assorted wal-warts and battery chargers for phones , cameras and cordless tools, beard trimmer etc...

I haven't scoped my genny since it sit up. but there was almost NO distortion in mine and NO 200 volt spike either, the sine wave on mine did NOT look like a triangle, I get more drop and less regulation when running my A/C when on grid at our friends houses than when I'm on the genny, and they have a 30 amp RV socket located on the breaker service panel for such visits

I won't claim the wave form is Identical to the utility company, but it is certainly NOT as distorted or spikey on my genset as you say yours is and the 120 volt has less fluctuation than the power company,

and IF your situation is NOT the same, than all I can say is your public utility is not as heavily loaded as this one.

[wtd1]

I've used an electric fuel pump for a coupla years, here's a link
fuel pump link that describes it.
I've read a few messages on here about what will or won't work, but don't remember anyone saying that they've actually done it.
I tried a coupla of them before I found this one that moves enough fuel without jamming the needle valve open.

[Jer_Ger]

I've tried to follow this thread as best as I can but I haven't seen anyone post that they've found a fuel pump that will work with the Champion to run it off the MH fuel tank. Has this been done yet or all of the pumps to powerful for the needle vale assembly? Thanks for any info....Jerry

[blkfe]

Ok...I'm going to go out on a limb here...
It is not my intent to diss ANY brand of generator. That being said,
I have been researching the most cost effective way to make my 3000W Chinese Genset (brand not important)electric start. I am under the impression that all that is needed is a flywheel, starter, a few bolts from Home Depot and a little bit of wiring. A new shroud is needed as well. It appears my Generator engine has the ability to accept a starter. I am going to try this. might be a while though..
Brad

[bobandcat]

This is a great thread, actually, my favorite thread.

The posts have been very helpful to me as I modify and "improve" both my generator and its enclosure (along with Brad's thread on his enclosure).

I just hope that the 'heavy hitters' don't get upset with each another over their theoretical differences and quit posting. I enjoy reading these posts and learning from everyone. In the end, I will sort out the chaff from the wheat as I see it for my own use.

[Old___Slow]

generator-guy wrote:

MrWizard wrote:
the champion is a pure sinewave generator

if you put an inverter genny on the O scope you will find out it is stepped wave

PWM and stepped it is very well controlled and HONDA for example as done an excellent job of finding the 'sweet spot' a step freq/cycle that is not a common harmonic of broadcast RF

motor driven field brush winding magnetos (as the used to be called ) produce pure sine waves, its the same technology the utility companies have been using for over 100 years

I'm not trying to split hairs here, but I think it's important people understand nearly all small generators produce a distorted sine wave. Mitt brings up a valid point that more and more devices use electronic controls and have a small microprocessor in them. My microwave oven, for example, gets it brain scrambled when running off the generator and the furnace turns off.

The Champion waveform has a significantly higher peak voltage than a pure sine wave does when it's heavily loaded. A 125 volt sine wave should have a peak voltage of 177 volts but the Champion measures 200 volts. If you look at the wave form it's more narrow and "pointy" at the top than it should be (almost like a triangle wave).

This can be important because that high peak voltage can trigger some surge suppressors into activating when there really isn't any surge. It can also cause high operating voltages in certain kinds of electronic devices.

Technically a "pure" sine wave is one with essentially no distortion. I posted the numbers several pages back, but from memory, the Champion measured a few percent of distortion when lightly loaded increasing to 12% or so when it's heavily loaded. That's not very pure but not horrible either.

While they're the same basic technology there are significant differences between the generators in power plants and the ones in home generators. The number of poles, magnetic design, how the coils are configured and wound, etc. all affect the quality of the waveform.

I haven't looked at a Honda inverter generator's waveform but I have looked at a Kipor Sinemaster and a few regular brushless generators. Over all, I'd say the Kipor had the most pure sine wave followed by the Champion and then the brushless models.

There are two broad categories of inverter generators. Those claiming to produce pure sine waves, and the "Modified Sine Wave" models (sometimes called "digital") that really use a modified square wave. These models typically have more waveform distortion than a conventional generator--even a brushless model.

There are other problems with the quality of generator power. First, the mechanical governor on the generator engine can't respond instantly when a load is removed or applied. So the engine speed is not 100% stable. This causes the frequency to deviate from 60hz--especially when large loads are removed or applied. It may also cause voltage peaks or dips--especially on models without an electronic AVR. The inverter models are largely immune from these problems.

The other big problem is when an inductive load is turned off there can be a fairly large voltage spike. When you're getting power off the national grid the spike is absorbed by the massive power grid. But with a small generator, with only a few loads, it's going to have a much bigger impact. Those big spikes can glitch electronic equipment--like my Microwave oven.

The above are the reasons why Champion and other generator manufactures recommend running sensitive electronic equipment from a UPS or at least a surge protector. You can't expect "power grid quality" electricity from a small residential grade generator.

MrWiz/Professor95:

Your microwave ok? Mine still boilin' the water. My Champion for my general purpose use kicks some real boot in the ole biffy:B

[generator-guy]

MrWizard wrote:
the champion is a pure sinewave generator

if you put an inverter genny on the O scope you will find out it is stepped wave

PWM and stepped it is very well controlled and HONDA for example as done an excellent job of finding the 'sweet spot' a step freq/cycle that is not a common harmonic of broadcast RF

motor driven field brush winding magnetos (as the used to be called ) produce pure sine waves, its the same technology the utility companies have been using for over 100 years

I'm not trying to split hairs here, but I think it's important people understand nearly all small generators produce a distorted sine wave. Mitt brings up a valid point that more and more devices use electronic controls and have a small microprocessor in them. My microwave oven, for example, gets it brain scrambled when running off the generator and the furnace turns off.

The Champion waveform has a significantly higher peak voltage than a pure sine wave does when it's heavily loaded. A 125 volt sine wave should have a peak voltage of 177 volts but the Champion measures 200 volts. If you look at the wave form it's more narrow and "pointy" at the top than it should be (almost like a triangle wave).

This can be important because that high peak voltage can trigger some surge suppressors into activating when there really isn't any surge. It can also cause high operating voltages in certain kinds of electronic devices.

Technically a "pure" sine wave is one with essentially no distortion. I posted the numbers several pages back, but from memory, the Champion measured a few percent of distortion when lightly loaded increasing to 12% or so when it's heavily loaded. That's not very pure but not horrible either.

While they're the same basic technology there are significant differences between the generators in power plants and the ones in home generators. The number of poles, magnetic design, how the coils are configured and wound, etc. all affect the quality of the waveform.

I haven't looked at a Honda inverter generator's waveform but I have looked at a Kipor Sinemaster and a few regular brushless generators. Over all, I'd say the Kipor had the most pure sine wave followed by the Champion and then the brushless models.

There are two broad categories of inverter generators. Those claiming to produce pure sine waves, and the "Modified Sine Wave" models (sometimes called "digital") that really use a modified square wave. These models typically have more waveform distortion than a conventional generator--even a brushless model.

There are other problems with the quality of generator power. First, the mechanical governor on the generator engine can't respond instantly when a load is removed or applied. So the engine speed is not 100% stable. This causes the frequency to deviate from 60hz--especially when large loads are removed or applied. It may also cause voltage peaks or dips--especially on models without an electronic AVR. The inverter models are largely immune from these problems.

The other big problem is when an inductive load is turned off there can be a fairly large voltage spike. When you're getting power off the national grid the spike is absorbed by the massive power grid. But with a small generator, with only a few loads, it's going to have a much bigger impact. Those big spikes can glitch electronic equipment--like my Microwave oven.

The above are the reasons why Champion and other generator manufactures recommend running sensitive electronic equipment from a UPS or at least a surge protector. You can't expect "power grid quality" electricity from a small residential grade generator.

[Old___Slow]

MrWizard wrote:
floyd

I would say the risk of spark, exactly matches that of a build in Onan, its the same technology and the brushes are located in the same place on the end of the shaft

what changes any 'EXPLOSIVE' ODDS is the greater risk of fumes collecting, in a compartment with a gas tank, remove the tank, keep the liquid fuel 'out of any enclosure' keep things ventilated, NO fumes ,NO danger

the total chance at danger includes more than ( odds of a spark ) which are pretty low

its winter, its dark before quiet hrs, run the genny in a dark area, watch the end of the genny head see if you can see anything when its running

The answer to my question. Doesn't look like a drill throwing sparks to me. Looks pretty dark in there. How nice. I will sleep better knowing the chances are quite low of a bonfire Winnebago. Nother thing, can't find any report of a OEM genset (or my sweet genny sue little sister Champion)) fire lately. Thanks, Wiz and I will try to follow good safely measures. That, I have known to be vary important in my almost 74 years. Just rollin' like ole man Riva':D

Floyd
O&S