3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[N9WOS]

The sine wave was rising to about the 2/3 point, falling off a tad, and then resuming its path to peak voltage.

That looks like the waveform I would expect from a line carrying a lot of peak rectifying loads. If A utility supply line has a lot of resistance in it, or you are using a generator that has a lot of winding resistance, then loading it will a lot of “diode to capacitor” rectified power supplies will cause that type of artifacts.

(ie) Computers, radios, TV’s satellite receivers, compact florescent lights, Big florescent lights with electronic ballast. Battery chargers, and the like.

Even with a stiff utility supply, you will see that “chipping away of the peak” if you have a lot of electronic loads.

[professor95]

Just an interesting observation related to the current discussion......

I have an APC 1000 watt UPS. It was given to me when the batteries failed (2 - 12VDC batts).

I installed the UPS in the basement and connected 2 lead-acid batteries externally. I ran a power cord from the UPS output upstairs to the entertainment unit. More for filtering, spike protection and voltage regulation than as a backup power source. Incidentally, the output of this UPS when on battery power is an absolutely beautiful sine wave.

A few weeks ago, a car hit a power pole down the road turning out the lights for several hours. I started my big Champ (C41365 13HP 6,500 watt) and flipped the transfer switch.

Looking around, I noticed the UPS would NOT switch off of battery power. I decided to turn on my bench O'scope and take a look at what was coming out of the generator. The sine wave was rising to about the 2/3 point, falling off a tad, and then resuming its path to peak voltage. We (the forum) looked at a similar wave on another genset a good while back and debated the cause. Mr. Wizard said it looked like a diode going into avalanche. The signal I was looking at from the big Champ was similar to the one from my ELM3000 that caused the clock on the RV microwave to double speed. Incidentally, the ELM3000 uses a capacitor for VR, the big Champ uses an AVR as does the smaller 40008 Champ.

Anyway, the UPS was apparently interpreting the misshaped wave form from the generator as a "problem" - which is what it is suppose to do when sampling grid power.

I decided to check the smaller 400 Watt APC UPS on the shop computer and the Belkin UPS on the upstairs computer, I discovered neither one of them was accepting the generator AC as a valid signal.

I now need to try the UPS on the 40008 to see what happens. The sine wave on that unit does not show the "dip".

BTW, everything else running off the backup generator worked fine. I did not try the microwave.

[Old___Slow]

Wayne Dohnal wrote:

Interesting. I have a PD9145 in my camper that I installed to replace an old ferroresonant converter. I have had no problem with the 9145 operating from shore power or generator.

I'm strongly suspecting that the PD9160 is not simply a beefier version of the 9145 for 2 reasons: (1) They run at a different switching frequency (I don't remember how I found that out), and (2) Their physical design is so much different (as opposed to the 9180 looking obviously like a bigger version of the 9160). So possibly the 9145 is more tolerant of the input power quality than the 9160, or another possible problem is the 9160's large amount of 50 kHz. trash placed on the incoming power line could be affecting the generator's voltage regulator. I've read that some switching power supplies can severely affect emergency backup generators.

All of the current numbers I listed previously were made while driving a fixed resistive load. When my own PD9160a was pushing 60+ amps its output voltage was pulled down to 13.4 . I don't have the voltage numbers from the person who took the other current measurements.

(I hope that nobody gets annoyed that there are several different discussions going on this one thread).

When a see Wayne's name on a post I always read with eyes wide open. I'm not willing for my questions about this AVR thing to go off into never never land. My person problem with a MAJOR OEM genset AVR and the est. cost of repair added into vary LARGE big bucks. Now the switching power supplies are added to list of possible reason for adverse effect on the little genneys. The recent failure of a C46540 related to the switching power supply, the best I remember. Don't know the final out come of the investagation into the cause of burned equipment and did Champion pay the bill?

[MrWizard]

all discussions are related to using are chinese gensets..

not every post is about the operation of the genset

its all good info, as long as we can remember the main topic is utilizing OUR chinese gensets

[Wayne_Dohnal]

Interesting. I have a PD9145 in my camper that I installed to replace an old ferroresonant converter. I have had no problem with the 9145 operating from shore power or generator.

I'm strongly suspecting that the PD9160 is not simply a beefier version of the 9145 for 2 reasons: (1) They run at a different switching frequency (I don't remember how I found that out), and (2) Their physical design is so much different (as opposed to the 9180 looking obviously like a bigger version of the 9160). So possibly the 9145 is more tolerant of the input power quality than the 9160, or another possible problem is the 9160's large amount of 50 kHz. trash placed on the incoming power line could be affecting the generator's voltage regulator. I've read that some switching power supplies can severely affect emergency backup generators.

All of the current numbers I listed previously were made while driving a fixed resistive load. When my own PD9160a was pushing 60+ amps its output voltage was pulled down to 13.4 . I don't have the voltage numbers from the person who took the other current measurements.

(I hope that nobody gets annoyed that there are several different discussions going on this one thread).

[N9WOS]

MrWizard wrote:
the txp 4500 , generac RV genset had an AVR, many 'recent' production generac models use an AVR, the replacement AVR for current production models cost around $90 or more, i looked into using one on my old generator before, the CDI ignition system died and I was unable to get a replacement for 'that part'

:h

I was sure I remembered seeing one someplace, but I couldn’t remember where. So I tried finding one listed somewhere and couldn’t find one listed anywhere. So you are right, so generac has been stricken from the list.

[Old___Slow]

MrWizard wrote:
the txp 4500 , generac RV genset had an AVR, many 'recent' production generac models use an AVR, the replacement AVR for current production models cost around $90 or more, i looked into using one on my old generator before, the CDI ignition system died and I was unable to get a replacement for 'that part'

MrWizard,

For some reason, you are one of the few with knowledge in this area that will talk about the cause of AVR failure. You have mentioned previously that the one possible cause of these failures is the SPIKES. Now we hear talk about a after market add on that will KILL the little buggers if the AVR fails. Hope this is not like the 'after market' of printers. Give the printer free and wait for the ink sales. Nother thing, if a small genset can be produced without this troubled AVR thing, why not? Something about a nice wave form? Is this necessary to operate my Fridge and A/C compressors. The power supply on my PC must be pretty resilient. They work in the Philippines with current all over the place, then when one fails some pretty smart folks rewind them on the street. Some do have a EE degrees.

[MrWizard]

the txp 4500 , generac RV genset had an AVR, many 'recent' production generac models use an AVR, the replacement AVR for current production models cost around $90 or more, i looked into using one on my old generator before, the CDI ignition system died and I was unable to get a replacement for 'that part'

[N9WOS]

Another thing I would like to point out in case it hasn’t become painfully obvious to everyone. When you see a smaller generator that is advertised as having a “brushless generator head” That pretty much means without exception that it uses capacitor excitation. You have to have brushes and slip rigs on the armature to feed the current to the exciter coil from the AVR for the AVR to function.

In the roster list of features, where it list if it has an AVR or not, it will say “no”, or “not required”, or “brushless”.

Sometimes it will list “capacitor” as the regulation system. But that is a misnomer, because the capacitor is the exciting system, not the regulation system.

I have seen a few make that mistake on this forum by referring to it as a capacitor regulated system. The capacitor is the exciting system, it needs no regulating system because the voltage regulation is inherent in the design and construction of the generator head.

Large industrial/military generators and three phase generators use an excitation generator mounted on the same shaft as the primary generator, but you won’t see it on residential grade systems.

Generator manufactures/brands that I can think of that have generators with brushless (capacitor excited) heads on some of their generators, or use brushless heads on all their generators.

Baldor
Coleman
Subaru/robin
Yamaha
Yanmar
north star (northern tool)
Dewalt
MMD equipment
Devlbiss
Winco
Makita
Pramac
Porter cable
And many more……

One that is absent from the list is Honda. Honda has a obsession with using AVRs on their equipment. And since Honda is considered top dog, any thing they do must be better than the rest, so generator manufactures that try to act “high end” use AVRs because Honda does. That is why high end Chinese generators (Honda clones) brag about having an AVR because Honda uses them. It is strictly a thing of “follow the leader” Other manufactures that are not trying to “follow the leader” offer brushless units, because they have found out that they give less problems over the generator service life.

Note: Many generator manufacturers mate Honda engines to brushless heads, but Honda it’s self, only uses AVR type heads as far as I know.

[Old___Slow]

Prof95 wrote,

"So, why not concrete generator enclosures or sound reduction panels?" bill h wrote on another thread. "Two factors have to be considered in sound abatement. STC (sound transmission coefficient) and NRC (noise reduction coefficient). One to block sound and the other to absorb sound. Thus we need a composite of both". So the Hardibacker or Hardie Panels will work well as one layer, I do believe. I have a small building full of cast off boxes that did not do the job of reaching my goal of 50DbA. I have many ideas yet to be tried to find the best composite. The cooling and proper air flow for a stock frame box has finally been reached. This was a real head banger.:h My new design for air flow was developed through a drawing I came across in one of Brad's posts.

[mitt]

professor95 wrote:

mitt wrote:
prof-

If you want an "off the shelf" method for this, check out the Magnecraft Voltage Measuring Relay 831VS-120A

Looks nice. Any idea what the cost is? There are a couple of distributors in the Richmond area, guess I could call to find out if it is stocked and how much.

BTW, the "old technology" method I mentioned is basically free if you have a good electronic scrap box (which I do) and like putting things together with a little wire and solder.

The best price I have found so far is $44, from b&b electronics (www.bb-elec.com).

Allied Electronics also carries them, for about $68. The 30A power relays are cheap, like $7.

I am looking at ways to test one before I buy one (we use similar devices at my work for testing).

I don't like the idea of just killing the generator, since it is stated in every instruction manual, do not shut off generator while loads are connected and running.

mitt

[Old___Slow]

toprudder wrote:

Wayne Dohnal wrote:
...The converter that was in this experiment was a PD9160a. The three conventional generators were Coleman, Power King, and Honda 2800 watt units. The converter delivers 60+ amps form shore power or a Honda inverter generator, but only 25 to 50 amps from the 3 other generators. The other person experimented with resistive loads. When he added a 1400 watt heater to the mix, the max converter output from the Honda (conventional) generator went down from 45 to 41 amps, but with the Power King it went up from 35 to 58 amps. ...

Interesting. I have a PD9145 in my camper that I installed to replace an old ferroresonant converter. I have had no problem with the 9145 operating from shore power or generator. In fact, the reason I installed it was because the old converter would NOT charge the battery when running from the generator, at the most I would only get 6 amps from it. The 9145 gave me over 40 amps when running from the generator, a 1994 Onan.

I'm sure you already know this, but when performing experiments such as this you have to be sure that the output voltage from the converter is below the regulated output level, otherwise you will not get full output current. If the optional Charge Wizard is installed, that voltage could be one of three levels (13.2, 13.6, or 14.4). When I was running the experiments, I would turn on all the interior 12v lights and let them run for an hour to drain the battery, then connect the converter to either shore power or generator and measure the output current.

It ended up that the output voltage of the generator was not the problem with my old converter, it was the waveform. I took the old converter and connected it to shore power through a variac, and was able to maintain output with the input voltage down to less than 100v. The peak of the waveform from the generator was good (greater than 160v) so the PD9145 was happy. I have not tried connecting the PD9145 to the variac, that would be a good experiment.

Bob R.

The first question that came to mind (one Senior Tech guy ran me off because of my many endless questions)was, what in the world can come out of all this discourse between some really great PROS in the field of power generation and related equipment when all these areas 'should have' been researched by the mfg of all this equipment. Well, me thinks they didn't have these same minds available to put ALL their experience and knowledge together on ONE thread. I do believe BETTER products will be developed because of the 3000w Chinese Genset info' thread. This is one fine watering hole for great thinkers who love to tinker with new and old ideas. As for me the novice, it's great reading and beats the hell out of watching the boob tube. Please do go deeper and wider.

Floyd
O&S

[toprudder]

Wayne Dohnal wrote:
...The converter that was in this experiment was a PD9160a. The three conventional generators were Coleman, Power King, and Honda 2800 watt units. The converter delivers 60+ amps form shore power or a Honda inverter generator, but only 25 to 50 amps from the 3 other generators. The other person experimented with resistive loads. When he added a 1400 watt heater to the mix, the max converter output from the Honda (conventional) generator went down from 45 to 41 amps, but with the Power King it went up from 35 to 58 amps. ...

Interesting. I have a PD9145 in my camper that I installed to replace an old ferroresonant converter. I have had no problem with the 9145 operating from shore power or generator. In fact, the reason I installed it was because the old converter would NOT charge the battery when running from the generator, at the most I would only get 6 amps from it. The 9145 gave me over 40 amps when running from the generator, a 1994 Onan.

I'm sure you already know this, but when performing experiments such as this you have to be sure that the output voltage from the converter is below the regulated output level, otherwise you will not get full output current. If the optional Charge Wizard is installed, that voltage could be one of three levels (13.2, 13.6, or 14.4). When I was running the experiments, I would turn on all the interior 12v lights and let them run for an hour to drain the battery, then connect the converter to either shore power or generator and measure the output current.

It ended up that the output voltage of the generator was not the problem with my old converter, it was the waveform. I took the old converter and connected it to shore power through a variac, and was able to maintain output with the input voltage down to less than 100v. The peak of the waveform from the generator was good (greater than 160v) so the PD9145 was happy. I have not tried connecting the PD9145 to the variac, that would be a good experiment.

Bob R.

[MrWizard]

Old & Slow wrote:
Both MrWizard and Prof95 have had AVR failures on their 40008 Champions. If I am right there has only been one or two others who have posted as being owners of that unit. I wonder if perhaps there might have been a different AVR in that model than the C46540. As I remember only one poster stated a burn out of equipment from the C46540. I hope I never have to report a AVR failure. Not sure what 'common sense' and 'taking responsibility' actions I need.

flipping the off switch on the generator while the A/C is on is a NO-NO

flipping the A/C off and back on a split second later is a NO-NO

[Wayne_Dohnal]

N9 - Thanks for the good info. It makes sense that power can flow to the rail in an inverter and be absorbed by the cap, but it's never going to make it back to the alternator like it does in a conventional generator. And when the power feeds back, the inverter can compensate by delivering less of its own power to the rail. The the scope picture of the eu2000i powering the switching converter shows that it does a pretty darn good job of maintaining both the waveform and the peaks. I wonder if the cheaper inverter gensets do as good of a job on this, or if the output quality will be going down with the prices. I'm an EE but never worked with power supplies so it's really nice to have the detailed info available here.