3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[Old___Slow]

If the wave of the future is for RV folks to be satisfied with a genset operating @ 68 dBA within 21' then I will concede, fold my tent, crawl into my shell and silence my keyboard, forever. Yes, a dead horse should stink enough for me to smell the result. I'm to old to argue.


Floyd

[professor95]

CosmicVagabon wrote:
but it helps me think that it's not just us CCC that feel it's relatively quiet.

Well, did he buy it or not?

You are right on the sound and it has absolutely nothing to do with a Champion Cheering Crowd.

Across the board, Champion is no louder or quieter than the Wildfire, WEN Power Pro, Pro Power, ELM3000, Nikota, UST, Onan Homesite, open frame Honda, Cummings, Chicago Pneumatic, DuroPower, Pro Force, Mac Tool, JD, Homier, Buffalo, etc,, etc,, etc. when it comes to the 3,000 watt GX200 class Chinese built open frame generators. They all use the same design of muffler, gas tank, engine shroud, fan, and air filter. Noise levels on these units fall below any similar classed Briggs & Stratton, Honda powered Northstar or Gentron. Powermate and Dewalt generators are no longer being made.

[CosmicVagabond]

I want to pass on an incident that happened just the other day...
i had ordered a new Champion genny and ran my old champion RV ready genny in an ad in the newspaper to sell. A guy came to look at it, fired it up with one pull, and said "Wow, that's quiet!" Not sure what he was used to, but it helps me think that it's not just us CCC that feel it's relatively quiet.

[kausin_komotion]

Wow professor you are a tough interview.

Maybe you could apply for a job at "60 minutes".

[professor95]

Old & Slow wrote:
Randy,

It's great you have chosen to represent the needs and desires of all RV folks with Champion. Some progress may come soon? In looking over what other MFG'S are offering to the RV World with lower sound levels, leads me to believe Champion must have a market of around 80/20. 80% commercial and 20% RV. If it were not so, Champion would be giving us a 60 dBA or lower genset. All gensets in HD in my area are for commercial use and I believe Lowe's will be the same if offered for sale in Texas. Can one call 68 dBA RV ready? Maybe in your neck of the woods.

Floyd

Floyd,

I wish there was some way we could get beyond this. As previously discussed the 67-68 dBA is about as low as you go for an open frame genset that does not have an eco-throttle.

I have measured Onan MH genset levels at a National Park - they are just as loud if not louder than the Chinese built 3,000 watt units.

The 67-68 dBA meets NPS sound level standards.

Even the digital units approach the same sound levels when loaded and the throttle comes up to 4,000 RPM.

Other open frame gensets (contractor grade) run at least 10 dBA higher.

This is the INDUSTRY standard across the board for ALL OPEN FRAME CHINESE 3,000 WATT GX200 CLASS GENSETS - not just Champion.

It is what it is and unless the entire industry changes to a totally new design it will stay what it is.

Yes, I have built an enclosure. So have you and Brad. But, that is not the "norm" and is not commercially feasable due to many other reliability issues.

As far as CPE goes, why do you trash them because they are responsive to the RV community? No other manufacturer has bothered to give me or this forum the time of day. Even when I have asked, they do not even have the courtest to reply - they evidently do not care! At least CPE does listen and let's us know what is going on.

Please, please - let's let this issue go. The horse is dead. If you are not happy with what you have, sell it and get the Honda 3000 inverter.

God bless you, my friend. I still like and respect you even if I did let it all out!

[professor95]

TubaPete wrote:
Almost makes me want to sell my ELIM 3000 and buy a Champion.

Hang onto your ELM3000 and run the "P' out of it. I still have mine and use it for portable power around the ranch and as a loaner to friends. It remains a good unit and should give you many years of service.

[Old___Slow]

Randy,

It's great you have chosen to represent the needs and desires of all RV folks with Champion. Some progress may come soon? In looking over what other MFG'S are offering to the RV World with lower sound levels, leads me to believe Champion must have a market of around 80/20. 80% commercial and 20% RV. If it were not so, Champion would be giving us a 60 dBA or lower genset. All gensets in HD in my area are for commercial use and I believe Lowe's will be the same if offered for sale in Texas. Can one call 68 dBA RV ready? Maybe in your neck of the woods.

Floyd

[TubaPete]

Almost makes me want to sell my ELIM 3000 and buy a Champion.

But then DW would make me sleep in the 5er year round. I've already spent too much money on toys this spring.

[Rotton_Rob]

Thanks Professer

[TXBlue]

Thanks Professor. Makes me glad I bought a Champion. So far, so good. No issues at all. Does what is is supposed to do. I'll be taking mine to Alaska with me for those times where I'll need my own electricity. I fire it up now about every three weeks and let it run under load for about 20 minutes. Good value for the money!
Happy Camping.

[mcmurphrjk]

Hope they don't drop the ball on the remote electric start unit. I don't want to hear about it for the next year.
However, I guess the squeeky wheel DOES get the grease.

[professor95]

I live in Mechanicsville, Virginia – well, actually Old Church, but there is no Old Church Post Office anymore. Mechanicsville is in Hanover County, which borders Richmond City and Henrico County, home of the NASCAR endowed Richmond International Raceway.

This past weekend the raceway hosted the Dan Lowery 400, a big wheel grinding smoking hot NASCAR event at a track that seats over 112,000.

Needless to say, a lot of folks come to town. RV’s are everywhere. The entire area takes on the atmosphere of one endless campground (and party).

I was pleasantly surprised when I got an e-mail last week from Paul Cole with Champion Power Equipment informing me was in upstate New York and would be coming down for the race with his nephew. Could we possibly meet and chat for a few hours Saturday afternoon?

You betcha! I jumped at the opportunity. My interest in these little Chinese gensets has not wained during the past 3 years of learning and writing about them. This was a chance to ask questions face-to-face with one of the top Chinese genset guys in the country.

We connected over iced tea and raspberry lemonade at a TGIF restaurant. My wife, Nancy, was with me and Paul’s nephew was also there. The nephew also works for CPE part of the year in the service area.

I had my notebook in hand with lots and lots of questions written down in an orderly numbered list.

We talked for almost three hours and barely scratched the surface. I discovered that this guy rides a motorcycle, has bugs in his teeth and Castrol in his veins. He really knows engines and like me, will completely tear something that fails apart to find out why.

The meeting was really cool. I felt like some big shot on 20/20 doing an exposé interview.

Following are some of the questions and answers we covered. Please keep in mind that these are NOT direct quotes, but summations of what I believe I understood. There is always the possibility I got something wrong or am confused about a response (there was so much). One more thing, I have no personal interest in CPE or in any way am connected with them. If given the opportunity, I will be glad to conduct a similar Q&A session with any Chinese built 3,000 watt GX200 class genset company and would happily report on the interview. This thread is dedicated to 3,000 watts Chinese Generator Info, and that is what follows – Info.



(Professor) What is going on in your dealer distribution network?

(Paul) Well, Lowe’s will be coming on board by the middle of this month. They will be selling a yellow Champion model with a L5-14, an RV outlet and two duplex outlets. Don’t know what price they will be at Lowe’s, but rest assured it will be competitive. Not all stores will have the generator. I can e-mail you an area listing of who will if you like.

NAPA is picking up our line, hopefully by June. Not sure if they will be NAPA by CPE or yellow Champions.

(Professor) What about the Ultra Fab line-up? What’s the deal there?

(Paul) I have not seen any of the blue generators Ultra-Fab is advertising. They will be shipped directly from the factory to UF distribution centers. We will not see them here unless they are returned for service. I am of the impression that UF may not have them as we speak. It is possible they are doing some advance advertising.

(Professor) So, what other source does a customer have if they want an electric start 3500 model than UF?

(Paul) While it is not a totally done deal, don’t be surprised to see some electric start models showing up on the floors of our regular dealers this summer. The interest is high and I believe the orders will be there.

(Professor) Has the closing of Coleman-Powermate had an impact on your company?

(Paul) Our sales are up. Lowe’s is coming on board. Service centers are calling us wanting to add CPE products to their list rather than us calling them. Yes, someone needs to fill the void and we are there to do what we can. It’s not just Powermate. Small engine companies and generators with lesser known labels are closing their doors right and left.

(Professor) Champion has their own factory, right?

(Paul) Yes, all Champion products are built in our own factory according to our specifications. Our factory is part of a larger manufacturing complex, but the rest of the complex does not build Champion products. The products they build go primarily to Russia.

(Professor) Do all these products come to you in the United States first, and then to the dealers?

(Paul) Not always. Shipments from the factory are done in container lots that contain on an average 250 units. Larger suppliers like CSK receive their shipments directly, but are serviced through our facility.

(Professor) Customer service and tech support are a big thing for CPE. How does that operate?

(Paul) We have five full time tech support guys. At least one of them has a phone and call answering responsibilities on weekends, holidays and at night. Our tech line is always covered by a real person.

All of our tech support guys spend at least 30 days in our on-site service and repair facility before they go on-line. They work with the units so as to understand their nature before they are paired with customers.

(Professor) How do you handle warranty service and returns?

(Paul) Right now we contract with Dixie Service for a lot of the field service and repair. Dixie has a network of dealers all over the US and Canada. Dixie handles the paperwork with the dealer at a pre-established contract rate. We will also work with any repair shop that is responsive and wishes to contact us. Initially, we allow ½ hour for diagnostic service to determine the problem. Once a repair shop calls us and gives us the problem detail and a labor estimate, we can ship parts out at no charge within 24 hours.

Please keep in mind there are limitations to the warranty. We cannot pay a repair shop that charges $90 an hour for six hours of labor and provide a new engine for a $400 (retail) generator. We will make things right for the customer, but there are some limitations as to how far we can go.

Additionally, our one year warranty covers normal residential use. It does not cover commercial use or full time use as a main power system.

(Professor) That last statement brings up another question. Some of your literature states that the Champion engine has a 200 hour engine life rating by the California Air Resources Board. Does this mean the engine will only last for 200 hours?

(Paul) Gosh no. That is an often misunderstood and misrepresented rating. What the rating tells us is that at 200 hours, the emissions on the engine were still within CARB specs. This is the target rating for intermediate duty generators over 1,000 watts. We have engines out there that have way over 2,000 hours on them that are still operating within specs. That compares to a car with 120,000 miles on the engine. If the owner follows the recommended service intervals and does not abuse the machine, it will give many years and hours of reliable operation in return. Like anything with an engine, let the oil get contaminated, use bad fuel, allow water and dirt into the system and abuse it by trying to exceed the power limits it was designed for and it will have a short life. That’s why we put all the service info on the generators in big, readable letters and right up front in the manuals.

(Professor) OK, this is a scenario for a situation that might exist: Customer buys one of your generators at a retail outlet. It does not work or fails soon after purchase. He takes it back to the store and they will do nothing. What should he do?

(Paul) First, call our toll free tech line. The number is on all of our products. Tell the tech what the problem appears to be. They will try to resolve the problem over the phone. If the customer can exchange a needed part, we ship the customer a part immediately – like we did when your gas tank was damaged.

Another response is to try to locate a service center in their area and get the generator to them for diagnostics. Once this is done, we will ship parts to the SC and pay them to do the repairs.

If that doesn’t work, we contact the dealer where the genset was purchased and try to reach an agreement for replacement that favors both the customer and protects the dealer from loss.

We may also ship out a new unit directly to the customer at no charge pending return of the defective unit. Of course, if the defective unit is not returned as required, he may end up paying for the replacement.

We are not going to leave a customer stranded with a new, non functional unit. We will do what it takes to make the customer satisfied.

(Professor) Which leads to another question. What do you do with returns?

(Paul) Our failure rate or return rate is less than 1%, which is far below the industry standard of 6% for these products. If we get a high number of units back (which we have not for several years) they are packed in a container and sent to the factory. If the returns are low, we refurbish them here.

(Professor) Does this mean you sell refurbished units?

(Paul) Not in the US. Any refurbished unit is stripped of its Champion label and serial number so it does not end up back on a dealer’s floor as a new unit. Right now these units are purchased by a company in Mexico for distribution there as non-CPE products. Rest assured, any CPE product you buy at one of our dealers will be new.

(Professor) Are your generators tested prior to shipment?

(Paul) All of them are tested. The engines are run on a special machine that supplies gas, oil and exhaust connections. They are tested for compression, noise, torque and general overall operations. If they flunk, they are pulled from the production line and go back to start over again or are destroyed. Generators are tested for output under load conditions. Everything is checked. Even the fuel tanks are tested underwater with compressed air for leaks. Nothing is taken for granted as being OK.

(Professor) Is your engine a Honda clone engine?

(Paul) No, we do not make that claim. We do not use the Honda name in any of our advertising or compare our engines to Honda. We do not imply that Honda parts will fit our engines. We only use genuine Champion parts. We control manufacturing all the way. It is true that the patent on Honda engines in this class has expired and there are many design similarities with thousands of engine look-a-likes across the industry. At one time they may have all been basically identical. We actually go beyond what many other brands do to assure a quality product. We line bore all of our crankcases, use high quality Stellite valves and induction hardened cranks. We have redesigned the valve train, rockers, and pushrods to make them more durable. We have a new double lip seal on the cranks that is less prone to leak oil and will last a lot longer. We recently redesigned our AVR to be more resistant to heat failure and are still looking at further improvements. We constantly evaluate our designs and change them as needed to create a more durable product. These are running production changes that do not increase prices and often go unadvertised or noticed by the customer.

(Professor) Another Chinese generator company close to you has a really nice web site that shows dozens and dozens of different generator models and parts. Champion appears to only have a few models – why?

(Paul) Well, first we want to do what we do best. Too many products from too many outside sources equal problems.

You need to keep in mind CPE controls the entire generator building process from the ground up. Without implying that the company you named actually operates this way, let me explain what often happens. Incidentally, this is not unique to the generator business – it often happens with many other types of imported merchandise.

An outlet will advertise numerous products. Their mission is to sell quantity to build profit. The web site may contain 50 different models. If a customer calls to order a popular or featured model, chances are they may have it in stock. But, if the customer orders a less popular model he may be told that there will be a “short” delay in getting it shipped out. The outlet has to order a full cargo container of generators from the plant. Sometimes the plant may agree to mix the container contents – sometimes it needs to be all the same product. So, unless the outlet wants to pay the shipping price of a full container for just one unit, they wait until there are enough orders to fill a container. Depending of the volume the company handles, this could be weeks – even months. Often the customer is left holding the order (having paid for it) with no merchandise.

We do not operate that way. Our products are on the dealer’s floor where they can be immediately picked up by the customer.

comment - Now we are running out of time. I still have many, many more questions. Here are a few. Maybe I can write up some of the others later.

(Professor) What influence has RV.net and the comments/requests by folks in the RV community had on your company, product line and the future development of your products?

(Paul) We listen. Folks like you have been invaluable in communicating to us what the customer wants. The RV 30 amp outlet and the full power switch for 120 volts is an example.

I have a factory prototype for a remote starter that will go into production very soon if it passes my standards. A kit to add electric start will soon be offered. All of our newer models will be equipped to simply bolt on an electric start kit (current modls will require drilling a stud hole). We have added a new tri-digital meter and are changing the on-off switch so that the low oil sender does not prevent a start up on dormant engines. We constantly evaluate our products and when possible adapt it to fit the customer’s needs.

Of course, there are limitations as to what we can do within a particular model line up and still contain cost. CARB and the EPA also impose restrictions as to what we can modify.

(Professor) What about a quieter model or a sound reduction kit?

(Paul) We are still working on it. What you have done with your unit is amazing. It gives me a lot of ideas. But, once again, as a company we cannot provide a product or accessory that reduces reliability. Sound panels will reduce cooling and can lead to reliability issues. At the factory level, we do not have that item where we want it.

(Professor) What about a digital or inverter model?

(Paul) Not really in our sights right now. Too many manufacturing and performance issues need to be resolved. We could buy one from another company and rebrand it – but that is not what we are about. I will not rule it out a digital unit the future, but Champion is not going to bring a product to market that is not of the highest standards and quality for our industry.

(Professor) So, what is in the future?

(Paul) Mostly perfecting what we have. Other changes will address issues mandated by CARB and the EPA. I anticipate a unit with a catalytic converter by 2010. Possibly a redesigned fuel system.

(Professor) What are the biggest or most frequent problems customers encounter that leads to an inoperative generator?

(Paul) The oil level switch is #1, which is why we are changing the design. I guess #2 is not reading the manual and adding oil. #3 is shipping damage. We have redesigned our packaging to reduce this problem. #4 might be a stuck carburetor float – but we added a lever to the float to pull the needle out of the seat and that has pretty well disappeared. Overall, major out-of-the-box problems that cannot be easily resolved rarely occur. While I hate to say it, the majority of our returns are unnecessary. I had one last week that appeared to be nothing more than the customer failing to turn on the fuel petcock. Still, our intent is to make the customer happy, and if it takes a replacement unit to do that then that is what we will do.


comment - The race was pretty exciting too. Especially at the 395 lap point. Our local boy (Denny Hamlin), who I was rooting for, blew it right at the end.

[Old___Slow]

JD/Jiang Dong in China is one of the largest builders of Engines in the World. They are highly rated. The US market is vary small. You will soon see the Super-Silent JD-3500EN-SE here in the US. It is rated a 60 dbA @ full power.. The old style open frame gensets for RV use will be a thing of the past. No one wants to park close to a 68 dbA genset. Again, most gensets on the market have a JD engine. I wish we could see a picture of the Champion engine factory in China. I will say the Champion C46540 I own has been a true pc of quality. I always get a thrill when see fires up on the first or second pull.:)

[HedoTravelers]

Honda is now having some of their motorcycles built in mainland China. Actually, a few Chinese companies have been building Honda and Yamaha motors for years like CF Moto and Linhai. *Some* Chinese products are good, just not very many. They are where Japan was back in the day when nobody wanted that crappy Japanese stuff. I think you will see a demand for better quality control in Chinese products and they will deliver it... eventually.

[professor95]

My oh My...... The Chinese 3,000 watt class generator field is an interesting patch of ground.

Honda's Chinese Built EP2500 generator has hit the shelves at Northern Tool. Uses the GX160 engine at 5.5 HP and is rated for 2,500 watts. Hummm.... Did I mention it was Chinese built?

Yep, spittin image of the rest of the pack. Gas tank, frame, front pannel, switches, sound rating, fuel consumpion.... all definately Chinese.

The only thing that doesn't look Chinese is the price tag....$839.95. Must be the powder coated frame that adds the additional $500 to the cost. Yea, that's it - powder coating is expensive in China.

Next to the Chinese built Honda is the Chinese built Onan 3,500. At $619.99 it now looks like a bargan.

First it was gas powered curling irons and electric cars, now it is Chinese built Honda's and Onan's - what is the world coming to?

:h