3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[shakerdude]

Hi Guys

Can anyone comment on the distance the remote works from for the champion. The manual states 80ft. Is this a reality?

How long from ordering did it take to get your Champion?

Cheers

[W8NONU]

Nice work as always.

Does anyone have any experience with these dual fuel carbs?

[Old___Slow]

Bluestreak wrote:

shum02 wrote:

Bluestreak wrote:
I am about ready to pull the trigger and order the Costco generator...but I am suprised that there are no reviews on the Costco Website yet! How come?

Noise is my major concern, and I was curious about the comments of the poster with the clip of his freshly arrived unit...talking about "clatter" as a major part of the noise. Where is this noise coming from? Is it from the sheet metal parts, the valve train in the engine, cooling fins ringing or ???

Finally, I know it's comparing oranges and limes, but does anyone know how the Champion 3000 compares to the Honywell 2000 as far as noise ?

I'd love to put the various generators we talk about here in a free-field environment and make some actual measurements!

Thanks for the link. I had seen this clip before and liked it for what Honda was trying to do, but I have some built-in skepticism over any video clip of anything making noise. Most image recording devices (phones, cameras, video recorders, etc.) and consumer audio recording equipment have built in ALC (automatic level control) circuitry and they all work in strange and mysterious ways to make the sound “better”. As it turns out, how "loud" some noise maker seems to be, as seen in a video clip, can be more an effect of the recording device than the noise-making device.

If Honda, or anyone else making the comparison had held up a recognizable sound level meter, (even one from Radio Snack) and showed us what it was reading, that would be great! That way, we could see the meter, the unit under test and the test area as well as hear the "quality" of the sound. If you really want to get into it, the thickness of the grass, the relative humidity and temperature, atmospheric pressure, presence of reflecting surfaces and the “flatness” of the field can all have an effect.

Bottom line, it does seem clear that big and ugly is louder than small and cute. Beyond that, I think we’re all on our own.


(What turnip truck did I fall off of? I spent my formative years as an engineer working on sound and vibration issues in nuclear submarines, jet turbine powered generators, aircraft and airport noise, computer equipment, BIG booms out in Nevada and automotive noise and vibration. S&Vengineering can be a lot of fun!)

On this page of Honda's site is a catagory called "Tools and Resources"

Honda Power Equipment

Click "Generator sould level comparison" and you'll get a decent video that compares Honda's inverter and open frame gensets which would compare with the Champion.

Interesting video with a load bank.

[professor95]

More testing today. I received an e-mail from Tom which is blocked below:

Bluestreak wrote:
Hi Prof!

Thanks for your post today on the new Champion 3000 generator. I did have a couple of comments regarding your measurement technique, only because noise is such a hot button for a lot of folks.

The common measuremnt distance is 7 meters, which comes out to ~23 feet.

The area 360 degrees around the generator measurement site should be as uniform as possible. From your picture, it looks like your garage is behind the generator and could be acting as a reflector. If your area does not allow for uniformity, then making measurements at right angles to the potential reflector is a reasonable way to go.

The meter should be held 4' off the ground at arm's length or placed on a tripod. Human bodies near the microphone can effect the sound measurement greatly.

Wind should be less than 20 mph unless a windscreen is fitted.

Measurements made within 2x of the largest dimension of the generator are in the "near field" and are highly dependent on a great many factors and should not be relied on.

These points may seem small and insignificant, but my experience in the industry and with the national and international standards for sound measurement says they are important. On the other hand, your measurements are yours, and as long as you do it the same way every time, they are fine. It's just when someone wants to duplicate them or point to them as the final word on teh subject do we run into trouble.

Finally, I offer these points in the spirit of cooperation and only because I respect the work you have done and the value you bring to the forum for so many people.

Kind Regards,

Tom Boles

OK..... I'll do my best to be in full compliance. Thanks!!

Before we go any further, please understand that these tests and readings were performed with MY meter, MY generator, in MY yard. I cannot guarantee you will get identical readings. I can promise you nothing is fake or retouched. This is the actual test.

To start I followed Tom's direction and marked off a circle with a 7 meter diameter. Four points, each about 90 degrees apart were marked.

There was no wind -- only occasional noise from a car passing on the road behind me or Oscar barking for his ball.

I even got the mower out and cut the grass for the circle so it was the same height all over.

The sound meter was on a tripod at 4 feet.

The meter was set for fast response with "A" weighting.

The area I selected was as open as possible so as to not have reflected sound.


7 meter mark


This is the test field set up


Front reading - no load on generator.


We are going to add a 1500 watt electric heater as a load. This is 1/2 the rated wattage of the generator.


Reading from the front with the generator loaded at 1,500 watts.


This is the reading from the muffler end with the generator under a 1,500 watt load.


Back of generator with 1,500 watt load.


Recoil starter end with a 1,500 watt load

Previously I had commented on putting a simple box enclosure over the generator with the muffler end open. The box I posted several spaces back was made of fan-fold foam board.

I made a similar box today from a cardboard box. I do not advise cardboard as the final enclosure material, but it serves as an example. If you allow plenty of air space and keep the muffler end open the noise reduction on all but the open end will be significant. Again, DO NOT make the box too small and keep the space between the muffler end of the generator and the open end even. DO NOT recess the generator into the box or cooling will be reduced.

You can further lower the sound on the open end by placing a barrier about 3 feet away. A big bush, hanging blanket or any piece of sound absorbing material works well.

Here are some box/generator photos and actual readings:



Generator inside box - note size and spacing for air circulation.


Considerable sound reduction on all sides but the open one. This is from the front. There is a -4 dBA reduction from the sound level without the box. The generator does not have a load for this reading.


I wanted to do some testing with other generators. But, with the outside temperature pushing 100, I quit and went inside where it was a comfortable 70 degrees. Maybe later?

I have two videos with sound. Can't seem to get them to work from this site. When I get the problem resolved I will give you guys the link to the videos.

[professor95]

quabillion wrote:
Since then the engine has not run, nor can I get it to even fire once, just endless pulls on the rope with no result.

Disconnect the yellow wire coming out of the block and going to the "transition" switch. This is the circuit for your low oil shut down. What you describe has been associated with the float sticking in the oil level switch.

[bill_h]

I am glad to see the difference between Joel and Prof's measurements. While I have never measured an unloaded Champion, the readings I get have quite a bit of variation. I chalked some of it up to different field conditions and some to different versions of Champions. Some, although clearly marked Champion, were of slightly different construction. Could've been earlier or later models, different outsources, etc. And, of course, quality control at the factory. And wear from use. And, (even) my meter or tape measure could have accuracy problems.

So, I feel a little better about my differing readings.

[manm]

quabillion wrote:

professor95 wrote:

quabillion wrote:
Wow yall, this thread is something else :B

Say I'll have some pics to post soon of my eu3000 propane conversion, once I get the kinks worked out that is.

Where in the heck have you been hiding? I though you might have moved to Iran or something. Anyway, nice to have you back.
I think you are going to have to use two venturi feeds and a "T" load block with the 3000i. One feed before the carburetor and another behind. Do you remember the problems Sal (Salvo) ran into on his Yamaha back when we were doing all the LPG stuff on the thread? Go back and find the postings and reflect on how he overcame the fuel feed problem with the inverter engine. I think you will find the answer there.

Apparently you cannot feed LPG into a mufti-speed generator engine the same way as a constant speed synchronous.

Well I got married, somehow all my free time is now missing :?
My tinkering has slowed way down, but my readership of this thread has not, just not much to bring to the generator table as of late.

I have forgotten about Sal having the same problem, but will find out more about how he solved it.


On a side note, I have bought a champ 3500 and it will not run now. When new it ran great, after the first few days it ran out of gas and since then has not worked right. I am having a hard time understanding how running out of gas could damage something :?

The spark is OK, the carb is clean, the air filter is clean, the oil is clean and the break in was done just like the manual said to do. After running out of gas the engine would run but with a misfire about every 4-5 beats, in this condition it would not run the A/C.
After disconnecting all loads and trying to diagnose/fix the problem the engine stopped, but not like the kill switch had been used, more like a brake was being slowly applied to the engine bringing it to a slow gradiual halt. Since then the engine has not run, nor can I get it to even fire once, just endless pulls on the rope with no result.

Floyd, :W:B:C

Thanks yall, and no hard feelings Bill, I like the humor too.

Turn your fuel valve back on!!! :R :S

[MrWizard]

QB have you checked the valves
My first champion Rv ready some how got a stray piece of carbon lodged on the face of the exhaust valve, causing symptoms very similar to yours
Good spark, fuel, compression at spark plug hole , but would not run, CPE exchanged it, I found out later what the problem was because they keep a promise to let me know what they found and this happened on a thanksgiving weekend, it was a few months before I got the info about the carbon,

[gasser9]

My problem(s) is that the engine is very hard to start on propane and once running will stall, then die at random times.

I am wondering if my line from the venturi to the reg is too large, I used 3/8 copper and 3/8 i.d. hose to connect to the 3/8 outlet of the regulator. Also a 3/8 load block. The load block is mounted to the regulator and the hose length to the venturi is about 12 inches.


The 3/8' or even 1/2' line should not be a problem! You will have to adjust the magic screw under the "k" or wichever garretson you are using, remove the hose & put a soap or spit film over the regulator outlet, remove the cap & adjust the screw untill the bubble breaks in a second or 2 it should start, idle & pull a load (open the load block up then adjust it on full load after warmup run it a little rich)
Make sure the tube in the carb adapter is up into the air stream behind the venturi with a slight bevel downstream.
We have used this method on Beam adapters & either Beam or garretson regulators on gennys, lawn mowers, grain augers, & various othe varying loads with idle capabilities.
2 horsepower briggs to 24 hp Kohlers all worked well the smaller the engine the harder the load adjustment but patience & perserverence will prevail.
The "spud" is a garretson standby, the carb adapter is a Beam standby later used by Century, & Impco used a varible venturi mixer that was really a vacuum amplifier.
The venerable Impco model 50 0r 55 is by far the best way to go for remote start, varible rpm, & dual fuel.
Good luck & have fun

[W8NONU]

Professor,

Thanks for the analysis. I look forward to the complete review. What's your plans for the new toy?

[joelchappell]

professor95 wrote:

joelchappell wrote:
I'm glad yours is quieter, no clatter. I guess the one I got had something wrong with it.

I may go ahead and order another. There isn't anything else out there that the companies care enough to support.

Thanks for the info Professor.

Joel. Can you hold off until we hear back from Champion and I do some additional and more accurate sound testing? CPE may have some added insight that will help. I would hate for you to get another one like the last. Shouldn't be more than a few days.

The only concern I would have about waiting is missing the price and running out of stock. I saw your meter reading, it was the same as mine only newer. You displayed 68db just as advertised. Mine was 72 from all sides at 21 feet. Not even close when we consider 3db being nearly twice as loud (basically).

Also, with your experience and history with these things, you would have immediately noticed what I did if the problem was consistently in the design.

That and there isn't any other generator at present that has price and features of the CHampion. I had 2 other possibilities and I am still waiting for them to respond to an email after 3 days. Not what I would call stellar customer service.

Champion is heads above all others.

All of that to say, I just want a Champion that behaves as advertised, and I am willing to try it again.

Joel

[Old___Slow]

Hey Mr. Cool, (Ryan)

I'm sure when Prof' wakes he will have a better answer. And where please pray tell is Mr Wizard? My take. Could be the coil. Perhaps was not adjusted just right from the get-go. You be nice now to the new DW. She may want to do some smooothing.:D

Floyd

[quabillion]

professor95 wrote:

quabillion wrote:
Wow yall, this thread is something else :B

Say I'll have some pics to post soon of my eu3000 propane conversion, once I get the kinks worked out that is.

Where in the heck have you been hiding? I though you might have moved to Iran or something. Anyway, nice to have you back.
I think you are going to have to use two venturi feeds and a "T" load block with the 3000i. One feed before the carburetor and another behind. Do you remember the problems Sal (Salvo) ran into on his Yamaha back when we were doing all the LPG stuff on the thread? Go back and find the postings and reflect on how he overcame the fuel feed problem with the inverter engine. I think you will find the answer there.

Apparently you cannot feed LPG into a mufti-speed generator engine the same way as a constant speed synchronous.

Well I got married, somehow all my free time is now missing :?
My tinkering has slowed way down, but my readership of this thread has not, just not much to bring to the generator table as of late.

I have forgotten about Sal having the same problem, but will find out more about how he solved it.


On a side note, I have bought a champ 3500 and it will not run now. When new it ran great, after the first few days it ran out of gas and since then has not worked right. I am having a hard time understanding how running out of gas could damage something :?

The spark is OK, the carb is clean, the air filter is clean, the oil is clean and the break in was done just like the manual said to do. After running out of gas the engine would run but with a misfire about every 4-5 beats, in this condition it would not run the A/C.
After disconnecting all loads and trying to diagnose/fix the problem the engine stopped, but not like the kill switch had been used, more like a brake was being slowly applied to the engine bringing it to a slow gradiual halt. Since then the engine has not run, nor can I get it to even fire once, just endless pulls on the rope with no result.

Floyd, :W:B:C

Thanks yall, and no hard feelings Bill, I like the humor too.

[professor95]

joelchappell wrote:
I'm glad yours is quieter, no clatter. I guess the one I got had something wrong with it.

I may go ahead and order another. There isn't anything else out there that the companies care enough to support.

Thanks for the info Professor.

Joel. Can you hold off until we hear back from Champion and I do some additional and more accurate sound testing? CPE may have some added insight that will help. I would hate for you to get another one like the last. Shouldn't be more than a few days.

[Old___Slow]

Prof,

No pin, just observation. In my little Yellow and Black shop with a Yellow and Black flag to fly, work will continue with the project at hand.

Floyd