3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[professor95]

I've got to start his post with a half-way apology to Floyd (Old & Slow) for my defense of what he called an added "echo chamber" on the new Champion generators that are CARB compliant.

The air induction device does indeed add noise to the generator. But, I would not in any way call it an "Echo Chamber".

Today I decided to investigate the air induction unit further. Low and behold, covering the assorted holes on the device made the generator quieter. The strange part is that covering the holes did not effect the sound level as you moved further away from the generator - the biggest change was close up.

Truthfully, it is more of a change in tone -- but it is a change that I like.

Now, here is the kicker. The added device is required by the California Air Resources Board as part of it's emissions reduction mandate for small spark ignition engines. There is something "sort of like" a catalytic converter inside the muffler. I do not know how it is constructed - but it does require added air (oxygen) to operate properly.

Since this is a CARB required device rather than an EPA device it is conceivable that one could simply remove the lower part with the assorted holes in it and put on a simple home made block off plate to seal the tube up. But, I do not know what the long term effects would be on the innards where the converter thing is.

Another option for non-California owners that find the added noise objectionable is to order a standard muffler from CPE. They are relatively cheap - it is the shipping that could add up.

If you own one of these CARB compliant generators you really need to watch and listen to the video I uploaded to YOU TUBE. It is not a public video, you must have the URL from this posting to view it.

I understand that CPE is investigating alternatives for the air intake device. Maybe a change will be coming soon.

In the mean time..... well, that is up to you.

And Floyd, you were partly correct. Some noise does come from the added device. I apologize for hitting you so hard on your observation. But, it ain't no echo chamber! Cut and paste the following link into your browser if this this does not work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JYBBi8dcX8

[jlaustin]

Ummmhhh ... like I said, the Prof can give a more technical explanation!:h

Regards,
John

[professor95]

This started on another thread after Wayne Dohnal made a comment about the synchronous generators and the infamous WFCO converter/charger used on so many RV's.

My fifth wheel has a PD converter/charger. IMHO, a big step up from a WFCO. But, the Volvo, which is a mini motor home inside, does have a WFCO. So, all testing was done on the Volvo.

I think you will find the scope patterns "interesting".

At Wayne’s prompting, I ran some waveform testing with my new Champion.

To get things started and establish a “standard” to work from I captured a waveform from our power company.


This is the sine wave of the power from Dominion Virginia Power to our home.


This is a 2000 watt Kipor digital inverter sine wave with NO load.


This shot is the Kipor digital wave when a 1,500 watt electric heater is plugged in as a load. I do not know what is causing the irregularity in the waveform.




The top photo is the Champ with NO load. The one under it is with a 1,500 watt heater as a load.

The signal does have some distortion, but it is primarily from the rotor spinning inside the stator and changing from each individual winding to the next. It is not EMF or RFI, or for that matter anything that should cause a problem in or around an RV. The appearance of the signal does not bother me in the least and there is nothing I would hesitate to connect to the power being supplied. No, it does not look like the “pure” sine waves above – but does it really need to?






This phase of testing was carried out on our Volvo VNL670 - which is actually a complete motor home. It has a 120 Volt 30 amp AC shore power connection, the infamous POS World Friendship Company (WFCO) charger/converter Wayne spoke about, 120 VAC air conditioning along with a refrigerator, TV, microwave and the other assorted power equipment expected. I am connected to the 30 amp outlet on the new synchronous (non inverter) Champ Category 5 ES/RC.


This is the power waveform from the generator through the Volvo’s transfer switch and breaker box to an inside outlet. The WFCO converter/charger is NOT turned on.


WOHA, what the heck is that? Looks like Wayne knows something about the WFCO converter/charger I don’t. All I did was turn it on and look at the clipping on the peak. Can’t say I know what is going on right now. This is something I will need to study further.


Everything is turned on that I can turn on -- air conditioner, TV, cup of water in the microwave, refrigerator. The waveform doesn’t change much, even when under full load.

These last two shots (below) are from my photo archives. They are from Brand X (JD) and a Brand Y (Nikota) Chinese generators built several years ago. Their signal is rough and one caused my microwave to run at double time due to it "thinking" polarity had switched from what The Wiz called avalanche. In any case, the zero crossing detector used in the microwave did not like the signal. Still, it powered everything else AOK.

The signal from the new Champ (and older models with 120 VAC only) is a tremendous improvement.





END

[professor95]

The AVR on the new RC/ES genny has a different wiring pattern. It is designed so there are two extra wires that a time delay solenoid can connect or disconnect as needed thus turning power on or off without regard to the engine running or the speed.

[Old___Slow]

New Champion Gens offered at Costco.com shows 'Sold Out' When will new stock arrive and what will be the price?

It was reported they had 3000, wow, that was a quick sale.

[MrWizard]

I do think I read a post, about this very subject, that said the tag attached to the remote about NO load was not applicable to this new champion remote start model

the new remote start generator has a time Delayed power on mode and a Power off mode before timed delay shut down

something like 15 seconds each way ?

press the start button the generator starts a 2-3 seconds after the press, runs 15 seconds, then turns on power ( still a Good idea to have the A/C off ),
then on shut down, press the button the power turns off , then the engine shuts down 10-15sec later.

power is shed before shut down, so the AVR & stator coil have NO spike stress

the professor made some comments about this a few pages back

without a load shedding and the power delay engagement like we have in our RV transfer switches, the remote would be less useful

it appears champion has done a very good job with the NEW model, lots of useful features, other MFG's are sure to copy

makes for a great & competitive market place

[jlaustin]

jbobst wrote:
... So the question is, is there any sort of design feature that will disconnect the load of the RV before start up and before shut down...while you are plugged in? I have always been told that you need to let the generator run a few minutes before adding a load, and also kill the load and let it run a few minutes before it shuts down.

If I have to go plug in and unplug the shore cord from my RV every day before I start it up and shut it down, the remote start really isn't much of a benefit ...

I don't think you have to run the genset for several minutes before adding a load, I think it just needs to be unloaded when the genset is started so you're not trying to bring the alternator on-line already loaded. The Prof can either correct me or probably explain technically. In my remote-start conversion, it's moot because I also wired the genset to the FW through an automatic transfer switch, so it waits 20-30 seconds to let the generator stabilize before the transfer!

However, I was actually much more interested in the ability to remotely stop the generator! Seems in the dry camping situations where I use a genset, I've been running it in the evening (if in a 24 hr generator section like they have at Oshkosh/AirVenture), watching a movie and running the A/C, and now it's bedtime and I'm tired and want to go to bed. I turn everything off, head for the bed and hear the generator running! How nice to just pick up the remote, push a button, and done! Also nice if threatening weather's coming, a down-pour starts and your nice and dry inside and want to shut it down! Of course, since your inside, you can turn everything off and shed the load before shutdown.

Of course, the REAL utility of remotely stopping it is when your at some distance away and a neighbor camper tells you "some idiot" has a generator (yours) that is disturbing him. You can smile, slip your hand in your pocket, kill the generator, and say, "Which generator are you talking about?";)

Regards,
John

[jbobst]

Sorry to jump into the discussion here, but I've been reading this thread for a few hours this morning, and haven't found the answer to my question quite yet. With regards to this Champion 3000/3500 remote start generator, I also bought one from Costco a couple weeks ago. I'll be using it for the first time this weekend, but I was wondering about the remote start feature. Since it has a remote start, I would assume that it is designed to be started with an RV already plugged into, otherwise, you might as well just start it at the generator when you plug in your power cable. So the question is, is there any sort of design feature that will disconnect the load of the RV before start up and before shut down...while you are plugged in? I have always been told that you need to let the generator run a few minutes before adding a load, and also kill the load and let it run a few minutes before it shuts down.

If I have to go plug in and unplug the shore cord from my RV every day before I start it up and shut it down, the remote start really isn't much of a benefit. This question has probably been discussed already, so I apologize for bringing it up again.

Thanks,
Jeff

[mrfixit454]

ol Bombero-JC wrote:



I looked at the review(s) on the Costco site.
I don't think mrfixit meant it was *you* that posted - simply that *another buyer* had a similar problem (he was in TX).

~

JC

Yes.. JC is correct. I looked at names and states before I posted. I wanted Professor to see of another potential case for the CPE folks

[Old___Slow]

ol Bombero-JC wrote:

Tony F. wrote:
Hey guys,


One more time, I want to clarify that this is not a Chinese generator in the strictest sense. Champion is a US company, with local engineering, QC, and tech support. They own the factory in China, as opposed to contracting with a factory. In other words, the only thing "Chinese" about this generator is the actual assembly labor. Once again, no, I do not work for them. I just feel compelled to clear up the misconception.

I am thrilled with this thing. So many features for so cheap. You gotta love it!

Joel - I think you're referring to this paragraph from "Tony F".
There's a misconception in the misconception, in re:
"In other words, the only thing Chinese about this generator is the actual assembly labor".

You covered the "naming" or "badging" procedure well. The Prof has covered the "how to become a generator supplier" way back when.
Any one of us can/could order one or several containers of generators and sell them on E-bay (or) until the supply ran out.
Calling them (badging as) a "Joel" would work - however "Old & Slow" probably might inhibit sales, LOL!

I have a friend who owns the Pogo Stick company (not the ones you remember as a kid, LOL) featured on Letterman (jumped over the NY Taxi Cab). He made a few trips to China to look into mfg there. An interesting story was the size of the manufacturer's (of and for everything) display "arena". Said it would dwarf anything Vegas (or?) had to offer.

~

I looked at the review(s) on the Costco ratings.
I don't think mrfixit meant it was *you* that posted - simply that *another buyer* had a similar problem (he was in TX).

~

JC

JC,

I always love to see a post by the 'ol Bombero' just makes my day. I remember when you got out the mignifying glass to search the posted ad featuring a 'rebadged BLUE Champion'? to see if there really was a Champion label, I think, on the engine. I even smile about that now, as I sit here.

And 'OLD & SLOW' inhibiting sales? Hey, I'm a card carrying CCC as in Champion Cheering Crowd. Glad to see JC, now ownes a Yellow and Black (it is yellow and black, right?) Champion. See, you bought the story of Champion (CPE) being a real value.:D Wise man.

Floyd


PS: Good value but vary noisy. Been working three years in the Yellow and Black shop to lower the noise.

[ol_Bombero-JC]

Tony F. wrote:
Hey guys,


One more time, I want to clarify that this is not a Chinese generator in the strictest sense. Champion is a US company, with local engineering, QC, and tech support. They own the factory in China, as opposed to contracting with a factory. In other words, the only thing "Chinese" about this generator is the actual assembly labor. Once again, no, I do not work for them. I just feel compelled to clear up the misconception.

I am thrilled with this thing. So many features for so cheap. You gotta love it!

Joel - I think you're referring to this paragraph from "Tony F".
There's a misconception in the "misconception" he refers to:
"In other words, the only thing Chinese about this generator is the actual assembly labor".

~

You covered the "naming" or "badging" procedure well (no matter where the mfgr is located).
The Prof covered the "how to become a (Chinese) generator supplier"
(branded by you) way back when.
Any one of us can/could order one -or several- containers of generators and sell them on E-bay (or?) until the supply ran out - or we ordered another shipment.
Calling them (badging as) a "Joel" would work - however "Old & Slow" probably would inhibit sales, LOL!

I have a friend who owns the Pogo Stick company (not the ones you remember as a kid, LOL) featured on Letterman (jumped over the NY Taxi Cab). He made a few trips to China to look into mfg there. An interesting story was the size of the manufacturer's (of and for everything) display "arena". Said it would dwarf anything Vegas (or?) had to offer.

~

I looked at the review(s) on the Costco site.
I don't think mrfixit meant it was *you* that posted - simply that *another buyer* had a similar problem (he was in TX).

~

JC

[jlaustin]

professor95 wrote:
John,

I hope everyone behind your FW has good brakes and stays off their cell phone. Forbid that anyone would run into the back of the FW (generator).

:S

A funny story - Back in my '73 DeTomaso Pantera days, I noted the exhaust system was pretty badly rusted and had just ordered a new system. (For those not in the know - the Pantera is a midengine sports car in the Lamborghini Countach vein - sits just a few inches above the ground and has the worlds shortest exhaust system - the mufflers basically bolt to the headers and you have 4 exhaust pipe tips coming out of that - they protrude out below the rear bumper.)

While stopped at a traffic light one day, I felt a mini-whiplash impact accompanied by a sickening crushing metal sound. Nauseated, I shut her down and slowly walked to the back of the car, not wanting to see what I was sure I was going to see!

A big 'ole hunk of Detroit iron had rear ended the Pantera. The other car's bumper had hit those exhaust tips, crushing them into the mufflers, but NO sheet metal was bent, nor was the bumper. Knowing I was going to toss the old exhaust when the new parts arrived, a wave of relief washed over me.

Then, I walked back to the car that hit me. A mother had apparently reached over to get the baby's bottle off the floorboard, her foot came off the brake, and that's why she had rolled into me.

Wide-eyed, she was looking at my car, then looking at me, back and forth. Her eyes said "I bet it'll cost a million dollars to repair his car and I think he's going to kill me!"

I asked her if she was OK and she said she was. The baby was all strapped in and having a good time. I leaned over in the window and said, "You're not going to understand this, but just forget this ever happened. Have a nice day!"

I drove off leaving her totally bewildered.:B

Which comes to your point, you know, there IS a trailer wiring plug on the FW's receiver hitch - I was thinking about putting some supplemental brake lights on the genset mount!:h
I'm a novice welder, so I thought a fun project might also be to build a sort of "nerf bar" bumper from tubular steel that protrudes out a bit behind the genset to offer a sacrificial crush zone.:E

If that Pantera scenario happened again and the driver said "What's the problem, it only dented the generator!" After all the mods I've done, I'd probably have a stroke!:R

[guy48065]

China is..shall we say..."flexible". They will produce junk but they have the ability to produce the highest quality. It all depends on the buyer's needs. And of course there are US-owned facilities in China. The US automakers own plants there, probably all US-based consumer electronics companies own plants there, US tool companies have owned plants there for decades and have complete control--including in some cases American supervision and inspection staff. Grizzly Imports comes to mind as a US tool company producing in their own factory in China with excellent quality.

Smaller companies and importers can make a couple calls and order a container of product from a "menu" of sorts with any number of upgrades & custom tweaks from a Chinese-owned factory as well. Just depends how deep your pockets are and your long-term plans.

Folks who constantly deride China for building garbage really need to get a reality check. What makes them so dangerous to our economy and production capability is precisely because they ARE so good--and can do it so cheap.

[Old___Slow]

professor95 wrote:
Whew....... I've been sweating that one out! I am really glad #2 worked out for Joel.

I'm still waiting to see what the problem was. Paul (at CPE) will let me know once it makes it back to him in California.

This "Who owns the CPE plant" stuff has really gotten out of hand. It was started by one writer for reasons I have yet to understand. I have known since the beginning of CPE and stated so on this thread that there is a plant on the campus of a larger plant that CPE OWNS. The CPE name is on the building. The employees are hired and paid by CPE. The larger facility around it does not sell American. What is the deal? I guess someone has the impression American's cannot own a facility in China? Get real, China is the most Capitalistic Communist country in the world. Companies of all nations have built factories and warehouses all over China with their money that are under their control (with approval of the Chinese Government - of course).

What is next? Maybe we will have an discussion over if those were real men on the moon in '69 or it was all faked. Or maybe was the '57 Chevy really built by Fiat? Who knows?

Prof,
The subject of the story (reason) I was sold and bought the Champion C46540 came from this thread. It's been a great sales tool. I forgot the thread is part of the internet. You have become quite an authority on an American owning a MFG plant in China. I don't know the source of all your knowledge on the subject. You must have on the seen experience. Experience being the great teacher. Someone once said 'I read it on the internet'. On the thread covering the new gensets from Champion, a man named, Tony F. brought up the subject of Champion (CPE) China being American owned. And the Chinese workers was a non issue. Not me. I did cheek out the story as best I could. Ran into a blank wall. Please don't be edgy. I consider myself one of the CCC's. Hope you feel better now.

Floyd

[professor95]

John,

I hope everyone behind your FW has good brakes and stays off their cell phone. Forbid that anyone would run into the back of the FW (generator).

:S