3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[Skibane]

professor95 wrote:
Sort of leaves us in a dilemma as to buy the expensive name brand and accept the possibility of higher repair costs or go for the economy brand and just plan on throwing it away when it quits.

In the generator world, we currently have a third option: Buy a low-tech model that uses generic, easily-obtainable parts.

[SonicLogic]

professor95 wrote:
The replacement alternator for the Ferrari is $1,800. That's considered "reasonable" for a car that sold for $200,000 new. But, if I owned a Ford Focus and was quoted $1,800 for an alternator - labor not included, should I consider that reasonable?

Just an old man playing mind games - pay no attention.

That's because Fiat owns Ferrari now. The part prices for Ferrari and Maserati used to be affordable.

[professor95]

Gerry2006 wrote:
I am just so paranoid about ruining a trip because of an unreliable generator, that I decided to go with a reputable name brand (that, if necessary, is hopefully repairable at a reasonable price) .......

Yep. I know what you mean.

The replacement alternator for the Ferrari is $1,800. That's considered "reasonable" for a car that sold for $200,000 new. But, if I owned a Ford Focus and was quoted $1,800 for an alternator - labor not included, should I consider that reasonable?

Just an old man playing mind games - pay no attention.

[Gerry2006]

I can't argue with anything you said, Professor. I hate throwing things away. (You should see my garage!) I am the type of guy who often cuts the electrical cords and keeps them before (if) I throw any appliance away. I have actually salvaged many other pieces, such as the sheet metal around a microwave recently that I had to eventually throw away after I repaired it twice before. I used the sheet metal to fabricte another enclosure. I virtually never throw anything away until after I have tried to fix it myself. I will try to salvage the remote control module for the Duropower and possibly the motor that runs fine. I am just so paranoid about ruining a trip because of an unreliable generator, that I decided to go with a reputable name brand (that, if necessary, is hopefully repairable at a reasonable price) instead of another Chinese inverter genset. It is not the first time I fell victim to low price. I bought one of the inexpensive Chinese scooters for my son several years ago. It wasn't long before the engine seized and I ended up buying the Moby ... it lasted a long time until someone stole it! I understand that China is doing to Japan, what Japan did to the world decades ago, and that is reverse engineer/clone what aothers are manufacturing at a much cheaper price. Maybe someday thew quality and quality control will be equal to what Japan has achieved but I think they will have a tougher road to hoe unless they start improving pay and working conditions for their employees. Wow, talk about being on a soap box! Take care, Gerry.

[professor95]

I haven't written a "Soap Box Editorial" in a while. The mood to do so has hit with the recent discussion -- so here goes! Just remember, the delete key does still work if this boors you!

As a teacher, I usually had some sort of "sideline business" to bring in enough cash to support my appetite for toys. During the later part of the 70's and up until 1988 I operated an electronics repair facility called Audio-Visual Equipment Services in Bedford, VA.

My main "bread and butter" consisted of 5-1/4" floppy disk drive repair and alignment, VCR repair and of course TV sets. If I had depended on them to carry me into the next century as an income producer I would be homeless today.

Initially, PCB's - or printed circuit boards, were serviceable. You could either choose to repair them yourself or simply exchange them for a rebuilt board. The Zenith Chromacolor II was an example of an easily serviced and inexpensive to repair TV. It had 11 different plug-in modules. I kept a full set of modules in stock and would often "Easter Egg Hunt" rather than actually diagnose a component level problem.

When the System-3 TV sets came out, everything began to change. It was all one main board and many of the components could not be cross referenced to more common ECG or HEP items. The time to diagnose, secure parts and repair started the process of "disposable TVs" by the late 80's.

Today you can have a PLC or IC manufactured to do most anything you want accomplished for just a few bucks. They are often wave soldered or surface mounted onto multi-layer boards that make conventional servicing or repair virtually impossible. It is much cheaper to throw the item away or replace the entire module.

I can go to Wal-Mart and purchased a decent DVD player for under $60. If it needs repair, the hourly labor rate is at least the cost of the DVD player. You have to charge a minimum of one hour to even break even on your shop cost. Then the test equipment, securing parts, replacing parts (if possible), accounting, etc. will run the bill up to 3x the replacement cost of the DVD player. We throw it away rather than repair.

Our EPA has actually passed rulings that do the same for our gasoline driven generators. They do not want anyone "fooling" around with an engine and altering emissions. Thus, new engines will soon be unserviceable. Try to take a head bolt off and you will ruin the block. The entire assembly must be thrown away so we can be assured the stuff coming out the end pipe is clean.

While we can still get major brands repaired, the cost is often prohibitive. The replacement component, like the potted inverter board, may only cost $5.00 to build on an assembly line but by the time all the different price mark-ups from manufacturer to retail are considered, along with stocking costs, they skyrocket. That $5.00 board quickly becomes a $200 or more board -- plus labor to diagnose and install. Many retailers are pushing "extended warranties" counting on the number of unused warranties to off-set the needed repairs. You know, sort of like life insurance and who is going to die this year.

I hate to throw things away that only have something "little" wrong with them. Pitching the DuroPower inverter in the trash makes me cringe. Perhaps it is a generational thing since my generation DID FIX what was broken rather than throw it away -- but, then, we could!

I am sure the quality of the Yamaha is much better than the DuroPower. They most certainly have a better service network and availability of repair parts. But all that comes with a cost. So, we ask -- is it more economical to buy an item at 1/2 the price we must throw away when it fails or buy a different, serviceable item at twice the price knowing major repairs could cause as much as the disposable item would? There is this "thing" about me that many other consumers also are afflicted with. If I buy a DVD player for $60 I don't think twice about tossing it if it fails after the warranty period. I may even buy another of the same brand and model if my initial service was a year or more. But, If I buy a different brand (that does the same thing) for $500 I am more inclined to spend $200 to get it repaired.

Sort of leaves us in a dilemma as to buy the expensive name brand and accept the possibility of higher repair costs or go for the economy brand and just plan on throwing it away when it quits. It's sort of like playing craps in a casino. Just remember, the odds are always in favor of the house. :h

[jlaustin]

Skibane wrote:

Yamaha and Honda also use "proprietary" inverter boards. In some cases, a replacement board costs more than a brand-new generator.

I guess technology has boxed us into a corner! I've had the same experience with several appliances - every time a repairman has said "you've got a bad board", the replacement cost of the board, the return service call, etc., all approaches the cost of the whole unit - so of course, I usually chuck the whole thing and buy a new one that at least has a warranty. My last dryer was cheaper to replace rather than repair the present one due to a "board"!
Regards,
John

[Skibane]

Gerry2006 wrote:
Regarding the Duropower - You are absolutely right, professor, about the proprietary nature of this stuff. The main module on this unit would be impossible to figure out. It is an embedded circuit board on a large heat sink and then that black sealant fills up and covers all components. The whole piece would have to be replaced, assuming of course this was the problem, but I wouldn't take the chance even if this part is available. It would probably end up being just as unreliable.

Yamaha and Honda also use "proprietary" inverter boards. In some cases, a replacement board costs more than a brand-new generator.

[Gerry2006]

Regarding the Duropower - You are absolutely right, professor, about the proprietary nature of this stuff. The main module on this unit would be impossible to figure out. It is an embedded circuit board on a large heat sink and then that black sealant fills up and covers all components. The whole piece would have to be replaced, assuming of course this was the problem, but I wouldn't take the chance even if this part is available. It would probably end up being just as unreliable. I am buying a used Yamaha inverter generator and will put it through the paces later this month in Yosemite. I am confident that my report back here will be great ... and justified this time. I wish you many happy travels!

[professor95]

Gerry2006 wrote:
I learned my lesson about buying from a company that got an "F" from the online BBB. I was lured in by the low price but don't make the same mistake I did. I should have listened to another poster on this forum a couple of years ago about the problems he experienced. I am going to buy the Yamaha EF3000iSEB. Good luck, everyone.
Gerry

I'm extremely sorry to hear of your problems. Unfortunately, as electronic modules replace simple mechanical assemblies it becomes more and more difficult for us to service something at the component level. Even "if" we could obtain a schematic diagram for the inverter module purchasing propitiatory components for the circuit board is often impossible.

It's a shame you cannot get someone to identify at which stage the failure occured and purchase the needed module. While the Yamaha will be costly to purchase, you will be assured that there are technicians and parts available should a problem develop.

Thanks for passing on your experience and advice.

[ATS_Aaron]

I borrowed a Powermate Proforce 2500 (3125 peak) generator from my dad to try out in our 30ft trailer. It looks like this:



It will run our A/C and a Walmart air circulator fan for a few minutes. I played with the governor springs so that under load with the A/C and fan going it's at 120 volts. But after a few minutes the voltage seems to fall off to ~110 and the breaker trips. I am guessing the generator is just too small. It might run the A/C with NOTHING else on, but I don't think I can trust the wives to fully comprehend that.

The good news is that it didn't seem too loud. It's rated at 67 dB at 23 feet. We made a quick cardboard box to redirect the sound and that probably cut a few dB's off but mostly just changed the tone. The muffler on the Powermate is REALLY good. We temporarily added an additional muffler (the oem one from my wife's Suzuki Z250 ATV) but it's didn't make much difference.

A 2500 watt generator being too small is a disappointment. I had a pipe dream of getting to run with just one Honda Eu2000i, but right now it looks like a pair of those and a parallel kit is in my future.

Aaron

[Wrace]

Britincali wrote:
Thank you Wrace for sending me that cap, I got it today.
It really is a nice warm fuzzy feeling when people can still trust each other even online, definatly makes all the horrible stuff that happen's fade 🙂

Wrace mails me a capacitor he paid good money for without knowing me or ever speaking to me, just boxed it up and sent it on a "pay me when you get it" deal.

Money sent via paypal 🙂

Thanks again man, it aint just about the cap its the gesture of trust thats making me smile rite now.

You are welcome, hopefully it works out good for your application.

[Gerry2006]

I have to weigh in again on the Duropower DP3600Ri 3600w Digital Inverter Generator with Remote Start. In my revised opinion it is a piece of junk. I gave it a glowing report two years ago, but that was after I used it once for a week in Yosemite. I used it one other time for an extended weekend last year and it worked fine. I also "exercised" it every few months under load. This past weekend I hooked it up for a camping trip; it started fine, electricity was present in the trailer (evidenced by the microwave display illuminated). I turned on one other small load device and everything went off. The motor still ran but there was no juice. I restarted it several times. Plugged a known working device directly into the front receptacles (after checking the on board circuit breakers), and nothing. I took it apart to see if there was anything obvious like a loose wire, but everything was connected fine. The engine starts fine at the lowest possible idle but never revs because it is not sensing any load because there simply is no power output. Even though it is ostensibly a Honda clone, the electronics are not servicable, nor are there any parts readily available. I learned my lesson about buying from a company that got an "F" from the online BBB. I was lured in by the low price but don't make the same mistake I did. I should have listened to another poster on this forum a couple of years ago about the problems he experienced. I am going to buy the Yamaha EF3000iSEB. Good luck, everyone.


Gerry

[toprudder]

rustycopperballs wrote:
has anyone tried or have used the ETQ 3500wt generator /inveter that's on the Sam's club web site?? good price, as loud as the champ?

Not the 3500, but the 800w one. If the 3500 is anything like the 800, I would not buy it. The 800 will trip with inrush current. It runs a 500w halogen light just fine, but it will sometimes trip when I plug a 12v 20A power supply into it, and it won't even think about running my 45A converter (even with no load on the output).

It runs well, is very quiet, but a Honda 100 is a little quieter.

[Britincali]

Thank you Wrace for sending me that cap, I got it today.


It really is a nice warm fuzzy feeling when people can still trust each other even online, definatly makes all the horrible stuff that happen's fade 🙂

Wrace mails me a capacitor he paid good money for without knowing me or ever speaking to me, just boxed it up and sent it on a "pay me when you get it" deal.

Money sent via paypal 🙂

Thanks again man, it aint just about the cap its the gesture of trust thats making me smile rite now.

[pritch272]

rustycopperballs wrote:
has anyone tried or have used the ETQ 3500wt generator /inveter that's on the Sam's club web site?? good price, as loud as the champ?

clicky