3000W Chinese Gensets Info.
professor95 wrote: EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here. In...
Forum Discussion
Looks like we are getting into an alcohol and fuel additive discussion along with issues on E10, or ethanol in gasoline.
My 2 cents worth is ethanol in small engines is bad, Same for 2-stroke engines like the outboard on my boat. Methanol is really bad, bad, bad. It will eat away aluminum, plastic and is extremely corrosive. Fortunately, it is no longer used as a gas pump alcohol additive but is in some bottled additives. Read the label - if it contains methanol put it back on the shelf - not in your tank.
The biggest problem is ethanol is hygroscopic - meaning it absorbs water. Not just water in the gas tank, but water in the air. A vented fuel tank is exposed to the air and as such when the humidity is high moisture is going to collect in the alcohol.
The shelf life of E10 is no more than 90 days. Beyond that it is considered "unstable" and is likely to have the alcohol separate from the gasoline. You see, alcohol and gas molecules will disperse among one another but they do not combine. So, after time you have separate mixtures of gas and alcohol. If moisture is there, which it will be, you are going to have a gel in the bottom of your gas tank or fuel bowl. I see this frequently in the red plastic gas cans I store fuel in. I always add Stabil to the fuel when I store it. When the fuel gets old I NEVER pour it into a gas tank so as to empty the entire red container and add the gunk that forms in the bottom of the container. Don't believe me? Pour the full contents of some outdated E10 into a gallon glass jar like a pickle jar. Be sure to pour it all including what is at the bottom. You will see the gunk on the bottom of the fuel in the jar. Now, CAREFULLY pour the gas off so as to not include the gunk. It will still run fine in a small engine if fuel stabilizer was added earlier.
So what to do?
One is only purchase gas without alcohol. But, in some states, like mine, every convenient gas pump is 10% alcohol. I can get straight gas at the marina up at the lake, 50 miles away. But, it is 93 octane premium fuel and runs about $1.50 a gallon more than pump grade 67 octane E10. (It was $4.25 a gallon in August).
Another is to add a fuel filter to the gas line (on the generator) that has a bronze or ceramic element that will trap water and gel before it gets to the carburetor. They are expensive, about $30 a pop at a marine store. I love the old style glass sediment bowls you can see what is getting into the fuel system and then open them to dump the******out. But, they are hard to find. Unfortunately, the gunk still collects in your tank - it just stays out of your engine.
You could always convert to propane, as I have done on several of my generators.
Probably the best approach is to turn off the fuel petcock and run the carb dry after use, then take the drain plug out of the side of the carburetor float bowl and stick it on top of the generator with duct tape until the next use. Maybe stuff a piece of cloth rag into the drain hole to keep insects out.
If you are going to keep gas in the tank make sure it is full so condensation will not form and be absorbed into the alcohol. Dump it or use it within three months - even if it has a stabilizer added. The gunk that forms will be at the bottom of the tank, where the fuel is drawn from.
Yet another solution is to only purchase name brand gasoline with a known level of added detergents and solvents. Shell, Texaco, Exxon and Sunoco are four that immediately come to mind as meeting the requirements.
DO NOT use premium or the highest octane fuel in a small generator engine unless it is specifically called for in the manual. Some believe that mid-grade 89 octane is superior to 87 octane lowest grade. (octane ranges will vary depending upon where you live) "Supposedly", or according to popular myth, mid-grade fuels are better engine cleaners than low grade fuels like 87 octane. Again, my belief is that is bunk. 90% of vehicles on the road today call for the use of 87 octane (85 in some states) by the manufacturer. Unless you have a high compression engine designed for premimum you could actually see more carbon build-up and less performance due to the slow burn characteristics (anti-knock properties) of premium fuel.
Actually doing any or all of the fuel advice given is impractical from a time point of view and personally, I think it sucks we have to do it. I am NOT a supporter of E10 or E85. As far as energy conservation is concerned it is a joke and our lawmakers that have mandated it don't have a clue what the real cost of E10 is to the America motoring public. You will find an interesting article here built on a MSNBC report that gives a pretty strong opinion on E10 and small engines.
Now for Seafoam:
The major ingredients are 40-60%: Pale Oil, which is similar to WD-40 or clear Kerosene.
25-35%: Naphtha, which can be purchased in quarts or gallon cans at any paint store. It is an extremely clean burning solvent and is used in dry cleaning and lighter fluid. Also the major chemical compound in Coleman gas lantern fuel which, BTW, can be mixed with gasoline for cleaning up a fuel system. 20% is the usual mix.
Continuing with Seafoam ingredients:
10-20%: isopropyl alcohol - (NOT ethanol or Methanol) Isopropyl reportedly does not gel like ethanol and can even help to remove the gunk from water and ethanol by breaking it down and once again mixing it with the gas. (Personally, I still don't want the mix going through my engine.)
Home-brewers have for years made their own SeaFoam like mixture for pennies on the dollar by using 94% Isopropyl from a drug store, a shot of kerosene or transmission fluid, and VM&P Naphtha from a hardware store. You have a lubricant, and a solvent that can break down varnish and gum.
Another homebrew mixture that is stronger that SeaFoam and may work better to remove varnish and gum is to add in Toluene, Acetone, and/or MEK. Again, all available at the hardware/paint store. Some recipes call for all five chemicals with or without pale oil and some just us one chemical alone. Or, you can buy commercially mixed cans under the name of Berryman B-12 Chemtool.
If you use additives often, it is much less expensive to buy the quart or gallon cans of the major chemicals and make it up yourself. You can mix $6 worth of Seafoam equivalent for about $1. And yes, I do make my own and use it in the outboard and small engines to clean up any varnish or gum that may be building up. One more comment about the Isopropyl alcohol - it is not pure alcohol, there is some water in it. You can find it in 50%, 77% and 94% concentrations. Obviously you do not want to add water to your fuel so stay away from anything but 94%. You can also purchase 99% Isopropyl in the RED (not Yellow ) bottles of HEET commercial gas line dryer.
My recipe is:
3 parts Naphtha
1 part 94% to 99% Isopropyl Alcohol
1 part MEK or Toluene or 2 parts Acetone.
Add 2 ounces of mix to each gallon of gas.
It typically takes two tank fulls (8 gallons) to completely clean all varnish and gum build up out of a Chinese generator fuel system. It DOES NOT immediately clean things up. It needs time and may have to sit in the fuel tank and carburetor for a few days to soften hard varnish build-up.
BTW - this mixture will also boost octane which is why I like it in my older 70hp Evinrude 3 cylinder, 2-stroke outboard. I can get another 250 rpm on the top end with the mix (or premium gas) since the engine has a high compression ratio.
NEVER put this stuff in the oil (crankcase) of a small engine like the generator. Just stick with a good detergent oil.
Lastly some folks like to buy the spray carburetor cleaner and squirt it into the carburetor throat with the engine running. This is NOT a good idea! The extra fluid inside an engine can cause damage because it will not compress. Too much fluid in the cylinder, fire in the plug goes out, piston comes up on compression stroke, things break. Additionally, spraying into the throat of the carburetor does noting to clean out the main jets or float bowl where most of the gunk ends up.
Maybe that is a little more than 2 cents worth.:h But, it is given freely.
Remember: Just because it may seem like I know what I am talking about does not really mean that I do!
My 2 cents worth is ethanol in small engines is bad, Same for 2-stroke engines like the outboard on my boat. Methanol is really bad, bad, bad. It will eat away aluminum, plastic and is extremely corrosive. Fortunately, it is no longer used as a gas pump alcohol additive but is in some bottled additives. Read the label - if it contains methanol put it back on the shelf - not in your tank.
The biggest problem is ethanol is hygroscopic - meaning it absorbs water. Not just water in the gas tank, but water in the air. A vented fuel tank is exposed to the air and as such when the humidity is high moisture is going to collect in the alcohol.
The shelf life of E10 is no more than 90 days. Beyond that it is considered "unstable" and is likely to have the alcohol separate from the gasoline. You see, alcohol and gas molecules will disperse among one another but they do not combine. So, after time you have separate mixtures of gas and alcohol. If moisture is there, which it will be, you are going to have a gel in the bottom of your gas tank or fuel bowl. I see this frequently in the red plastic gas cans I store fuel in. I always add Stabil to the fuel when I store it. When the fuel gets old I NEVER pour it into a gas tank so as to empty the entire red container and add the gunk that forms in the bottom of the container. Don't believe me? Pour the full contents of some outdated E10 into a gallon glass jar like a pickle jar. Be sure to pour it all including what is at the bottom. You will see the gunk on the bottom of the fuel in the jar. Now, CAREFULLY pour the gas off so as to not include the gunk. It will still run fine in a small engine if fuel stabilizer was added earlier.
So what to do?
One is only purchase gas without alcohol. But, in some states, like mine, every convenient gas pump is 10% alcohol. I can get straight gas at the marina up at the lake, 50 miles away. But, it is 93 octane premium fuel and runs about $1.50 a gallon more than pump grade 67 octane E10. (It was $4.25 a gallon in August).
Another is to add a fuel filter to the gas line (on the generator) that has a bronze or ceramic element that will trap water and gel before it gets to the carburetor. They are expensive, about $30 a pop at a marine store. I love the old style glass sediment bowls you can see what is getting into the fuel system and then open them to dump the******out. But, they are hard to find. Unfortunately, the gunk still collects in your tank - it just stays out of your engine.
You could always convert to propane, as I have done on several of my generators.
Probably the best approach is to turn off the fuel petcock and run the carb dry after use, then take the drain plug out of the side of the carburetor float bowl and stick it on top of the generator with duct tape until the next use. Maybe stuff a piece of cloth rag into the drain hole to keep insects out.
If you are going to keep gas in the tank make sure it is full so condensation will not form and be absorbed into the alcohol. Dump it or use it within three months - even if it has a stabilizer added. The gunk that forms will be at the bottom of the tank, where the fuel is drawn from.
Yet another solution is to only purchase name brand gasoline with a known level of added detergents and solvents. Shell, Texaco, Exxon and Sunoco are four that immediately come to mind as meeting the requirements.
DO NOT use premium or the highest octane fuel in a small generator engine unless it is specifically called for in the manual. Some believe that mid-grade 89 octane is superior to 87 octane lowest grade. (octane ranges will vary depending upon where you live) "Supposedly", or according to popular myth, mid-grade fuels are better engine cleaners than low grade fuels like 87 octane. Again, my belief is that is bunk. 90% of vehicles on the road today call for the use of 87 octane (85 in some states) by the manufacturer. Unless you have a high compression engine designed for premimum you could actually see more carbon build-up and less performance due to the slow burn characteristics (anti-knock properties) of premium fuel.
Actually doing any or all of the fuel advice given is impractical from a time point of view and personally, I think it sucks we have to do it. I am NOT a supporter of E10 or E85. As far as energy conservation is concerned it is a joke and our lawmakers that have mandated it don't have a clue what the real cost of E10 is to the America motoring public. You will find an interesting article here built on a MSNBC report that gives a pretty strong opinion on E10 and small engines.
Now for Seafoam:
The major ingredients are 40-60%: Pale Oil, which is similar to WD-40 or clear Kerosene.
25-35%: Naphtha, which can be purchased in quarts or gallon cans at any paint store. It is an extremely clean burning solvent and is used in dry cleaning and lighter fluid. Also the major chemical compound in Coleman gas lantern fuel which, BTW, can be mixed with gasoline for cleaning up a fuel system. 20% is the usual mix.
Continuing with Seafoam ingredients:
10-20%: isopropyl alcohol - (NOT ethanol or Methanol) Isopropyl reportedly does not gel like ethanol and can even help to remove the gunk from water and ethanol by breaking it down and once again mixing it with the gas. (Personally, I still don't want the mix going through my engine.)
Home-brewers have for years made their own SeaFoam like mixture for pennies on the dollar by using 94% Isopropyl from a drug store, a shot of kerosene or transmission fluid, and VM&P Naphtha from a hardware store. You have a lubricant, and a solvent that can break down varnish and gum.
Another homebrew mixture that is stronger that SeaFoam and may work better to remove varnish and gum is to add in Toluene, Acetone, and/or MEK. Again, all available at the hardware/paint store. Some recipes call for all five chemicals with or without pale oil and some just us one chemical alone. Or, you can buy commercially mixed cans under the name of Berryman B-12 Chemtool.
If you use additives often, it is much less expensive to buy the quart or gallon cans of the major chemicals and make it up yourself. You can mix $6 worth of Seafoam equivalent for about $1. And yes, I do make my own and use it in the outboard and small engines to clean up any varnish or gum that may be building up. One more comment about the Isopropyl alcohol - it is not pure alcohol, there is some water in it. You can find it in 50%, 77% and 94% concentrations. Obviously you do not want to add water to your fuel so stay away from anything but 94%. You can also purchase 99% Isopropyl in the RED (not Yellow ) bottles of HEET commercial gas line dryer.
My recipe is:
3 parts Naphtha
1 part 94% to 99% Isopropyl Alcohol
1 part MEK or Toluene or 2 parts Acetone.
Add 2 ounces of mix to each gallon of gas.
It typically takes two tank fulls (8 gallons) to completely clean all varnish and gum build up out of a Chinese generator fuel system. It DOES NOT immediately clean things up. It needs time and may have to sit in the fuel tank and carburetor for a few days to soften hard varnish build-up.
BTW - this mixture will also boost octane which is why I like it in my older 70hp Evinrude 3 cylinder, 2-stroke outboard. I can get another 250 rpm on the top end with the mix (or premium gas) since the engine has a high compression ratio.
NEVER put this stuff in the oil (crankcase) of a small engine like the generator. Just stick with a good detergent oil.
Lastly some folks like to buy the spray carburetor cleaner and squirt it into the carburetor throat with the engine running. This is NOT a good idea! The extra fluid inside an engine can cause damage because it will not compress. Too much fluid in the cylinder, fire in the plug goes out, piston comes up on compression stroke, things break. Additionally, spraying into the throat of the carburetor does noting to clean out the main jets or float bowl where most of the gunk ends up.
Maybe that is a little more than 2 cents worth.:h But, it is given freely.
Remember: Just because it may seem like I know what I am talking about does not really mean that I do!
