Open Neutral and failed transfer switch

[tammyinwv]

we purchased a 201203 cyclone 3110 last Fall.This summer while at the beach, we came back to find our electric off and bedroom tv, central vac, and microwave fried. Before telling the campground what was wrong, anticipating and immediate cover up, we just told them our electric was flickering. They checked the pole, nothing was tripped. The used a tester on it and everything was still showing OK, then we told them what we found. No one else had problems, no storms, nothing. We found out after talking to a tech that it was the transfer switch. We also found out from a retired electrical engineer that an "open neutral" can occur and cause a power surge frying the 110 appliances. Now the dealer, is telling me first that the progressive dynamics switch can not get open neutral. so I contact PD and find out it can. Now the dealer tells me that if it was open neutral I would definitely have some burnt wires in the switch, witch we did not have. I just have a feeling I am being jerked around. We purchased a cheap surge protector that mounts on the pole for shore power to protect the switch, but we also bought a wired in surge protector for around $400 to wire in AFTER the switch to also protect our appliances if the switch fails again. The dealer says our swith just failed but did not cause damage to the appliances. it had to have been something else. Does anyone have any thoughts on this issue? I would appreciate info from someone other than the dealer.
Tammy

[tammyinwv]

When will the disaster end? We raised the hitch end of the camper to open slides so we could again try and figure out the electrical problem. When the unit was raised and almost level, we noticed water POURING out of the corner of the unit on the outside. While facing the hitch , its on the right corner. It ran for a few minutes coming from inside the camper, NOT down the side. My husband checked out the roof AC (bedroom) and found nothing wrong. I wonder if this is contributing to the occasional cracking noise I hear from the air when in bed at night? Also I am afraid to think about how much rot,and mold may be growing in there, and how much we have been breathing in?
Tammy
Youtube Video of leak

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Tammy, ain't no such thing as a dumb nurse, especially an RN. In a hospital when an RN roars, even the doctors run away.

If you have to, do your own checking. But have a couple of fire extinguishers and a garden hose primed and waiting. See, hear, feel or smell smoke KILL THE SHORE POWER then deal with whatever is causing your issue. You identify and test. They fix. it's cheaper. I'll bet your intuition is equivalent to three or four snotnosed technicians. PM me if you wish I'll help all I can. PS I wouldn't help a doctor - no chance of huggzies and kisseys even if they're cyber.

[tammyinwv]

I am not too bright when it comes to electric and such, but after researching the open neutral situation, i knew more than the dealers repair manager on the subject,lol. and i am a nurse, femal, and mother to 5 grown children , nowhere near a mechanic. I will let my husband read your post when he gets home. thanks so much for your help. We are afraid to replace any of the appliances.
tammy

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Plug the heater into a receptacle. Plug the meter into the second set of sockets. Fire up the heater. Watch for voltage decline. This has to be done on EVERY receptacle on that coach. That's why I use a pair of heaters. To save time.

Look, a 50-amp coach uses a SINGLE neutral feeder. A pair of heaters, one on branch one the other on branch two is going to load that neutral to 30 amps. If you lost neutral once I guarantee 30 amps "will find the problem". The problem may or may not appear immediately. Leave those heaters ON while checking voltages.

THEN, reconnect the heaters to TWO receptacles that are powered with independent 15-amp breakers but sucking off ONLY branch 1, OR branch 2. Another 20 minute test using a voltmeter. Branch 2 has to be tested after branch 1 is cleared or condemned.

This guy pulls into my facility and says "We haven't been able to use the rear air for six months. We went from Dealer to mechanic to everyone including a factory rep. We both smelled smoke one night and everyone says "There's No Problem!"

Step into my office...

Jesús and I wheeled out a six burner Kenmore 240 volt stove. Ran six gauge tap lines to the ahem ENERGY MANAGEMENT BOX. Flipped on a couple of burners. First low, then medium then...oh my gosh...there's the smoke that doesn't exist."

Dug up a couple of DPDT 50-amp relays.

New RV manufacturers try to achieve Space Shuttle grade sophistication on a Burger King budget. Knowing 99% of RV dealerships are owned and run by salesmen, I wonder how much they pay their mechanics? Oops I mean "Technicians". I know when I toughed it out forty years ago and went to work for a car dealer to tide me over for a summer, the Service Manager was dumber than a quarter-mile of mud fence.

[tammyinwv]

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
Back when I commuted to work by air (Pterodactyl) I got sucked into recovering new RV "burnouts" so they did not have to be totaled. Proofing a circuit takes time and patience, and comebacks and risk of unintended disaster. I had neither time or patience, wanted no comebacks, nor wished to attend funerals.

I LOADED each circuit to the max. Some with 1,650 watt loads, and multiples thereof to proof incoming feeder lines. Voltmeters, a KW meter on the incoming power, and several fire extinguishers. I used a thermography scanning tool to double check receptacle integrity, breakers, switches, converters, etc. Today a simple IR scan tool the likes of a HF would do fine. As would a pair of electric heaters. Two days to check out a 35' motorhome or trailer. GOOD SAM moaned when I gave them the bill. But they paid and then immediately set me up for the next one. "Jeez I only did this the first time because I knew the guy" he was a golf pro and purchased a lot of batteries off the distributor I subcontracted to. They ended up low-boy'ing rig after rig. Then came a PREVOST. I had to beg off. This occurred not all that far from Los Angeles.

I would park the "repaired" rig far enough away from a dwelling so as to not endanger it. Then use heaters, and a voltmeter and an IR scan tool, and take my time, if I were you.

This is the second time someone as mentioned about loading the circuits. When the tech checked in the breaker box, he plugged a volt meter(?) into the microwave outlet since it ad blown, and turned OFF all the breakers, then watched the meter while each one was turned On then Off again, and went to the next. At no time was there anything more running than the AC, fridge, and hot water tank,

[tammyinwv]

westend, my husband and the tech opened the box the breakers were in and checked that the wires on both bars were tight and not discolored. The tech also pulled out the entire box from the wall, and checked behind, also pulled on wires behind while having a meter plugged into the microwave outlet. with no problems noted.

There was loose wires in a junction box under the kitchen slide that the tech repaired, but he said it could be the problem, but he really didnt think so. he is sure the problem lies deeper in the coach.
Tammy

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Back when I commuted to work by air (Pterodactyl) I got sucked into recovering new RV "burnouts" so they did not have to be totaled. Proofing a circuit takes time and patience, and comebacks and risk of unintended disaster. I had neither time or patience, wanted no comebacks, nor wished to attend funerals.

I LOADED each circuit to the max. Some with 1,650 watt loads, and multiples thereof to proof incoming feeder lines. Voltmeters, a KW meter on the incoming power, and several fire extinguishers. I used a thermography scanning tool to double check receptacle integrity, breakers, switches, converters, etc. Today a simple IR scan tool the likes of a HF would do fine. As would a pair of electric heaters. Two days to check out a 35' motorhome or trailer. GOOD SAM moaned when I gave them the bill. But they paid and then immediately set me up for the next one. "Jeez I only did this the first time because I knew the guy" he was a golf pro and purchased a lot of batteries off the distributor I subcontracted to. They ended up low-boy'ing rig after rig. Then came a PREVOST. I had to beg off. This occurred not all that far from Los Angeles.

I would park the "repaired" rig far enough away from a dwelling so as to not endanger it. Then use heaters, and a voltmeter and an IR scan tool, and take my time, if I were you.

[ShapeShifter]

smkettner wrote:
Wire is protected and may not show any effect.

Agreed. Standard AC wiring is rated at 600 volts. 240 volts is a walk in the park as far as the wires are concerned!

Burning wires requires heat from a loose connection, or way too much current.

[time2roll]

tammyinwv wrote:

smkettner wrote:

tammyinwv wrote:
Since dealer said the first time we got blown appliances the switch was faulty and replaced under warranty but they INSISTED it could not have damaged the appliances.

Time to find a new dealer that has a technition that understands split phase electric service.

That might not help either, as I have an email direct from Progressive Dynamics stating that a transfer switch CAN cause open Neutral. I sent it to dealer, and Anthony at Heartland RV. They then told me that if I had open neutral I would have burnt or melted wires which I did not. So I again contacted progressive, and they said that symptoms of an open neutral could well be ONLY a series of blown appliances which I had. Even with this email direct from the maker of my transfer switch, they still deny warranty. Beleive me, I have that email saved.
Tammy

Heartland RV is wrong. Someone else needs to look at it.
Burnt wires are from loose connections not open connections.

Open neutral runs the two sides of the panel in series at 240 volts. If the load is equal on each side then each load sees 120v. Usually the load is NOT equal and one side will see high voltage and the other side will be low. Wire is protected and may not show any effect.

[ShapeShifter]

smkettner wrote:
Time to find a new dealer that has a technition that understands split phase electric service.

Agreed. Because the technician that used this following procedure didn't understand what he was chasing:

tammyinwv wrote:
The tech did indeed turn off ALL breakers while his voltage/amp (?) meter was plugged into the microwave outlet. The microwave was one of the appliances blown. He would switch on one breaker at a time while checking meter for a change. He also pulled the breaker box out and wiggled the wires behind while checking meter.

This does not sound like a valid way to check for an open neutral. There has to be an imbalanced load to cause a voltage change.

tammyinwv wrote:
That might not help either, as I have an email direct from Progressive Dynamics stating that a transfer switch CAN cause open Neutral. I sent it to dealer, and Anthony at Heartland RV. They then told me that if I had open neutral I would have burnt or melted wires which I did not. So I again contacted progressive, and they said that symptoms of an open neutral could well be ONLY a series of blown appliances which I had. Even with this email direct from the maker of my transfer switch, they still deny warranty.

That just proves you need to find another dealer, as this one is unable or unwilling to help, and doesn't understand the problem. Progressive has it right: an open neutral can create an over-VOLTAGE condition, not over-CURRENT. It's too much current or heat that will create burned wires, not too much voltage. You need a different dealer/technician.

Maybe an alternative is to talk to a GOOD electrician, one who understands how things actually work, and not one who just knows the mechanics of pulling and connecting wires. This is an electrical power problem, and the wiring concepts are no different than in a house. The most esoteric part in RV AC wiring is the transfer switch, and even this is not a foreign concept in residential applications. A 50 amp RV is still a 120/240 volt split phase system, just like a house.

westend wrote:
With the main power turned off, you could pull on the wires attached to the bus and make sure all are tight.

I would take it a step further: unplug the shore cord, and make sure the inverter and generator are off. Better yet, switch off or disconnect the batteries so that the inverter or generator can't be accidentally started.

[westend]

tammyinwv wrote:

westend wrote:
I would be getting a second opinion on the problem with a different set of hands and eyes. The #1 suspect would be a loose neutral wire in the load center.

westend could you explain how or if we could check this?
Tammy

I'm loathe to give procedural advice because I don't know anyone's skills and experience. Electricity can be deadly.

Briefly, you could inspect the load center by removing the cover and inspecting the neutral bus. A loose neutral may cause a blackened area or change in the color of the bus bar. You might also see a wire blackened where it enters the bus. With the main power turned off, you could pull on the wires attached to the bus and make sure all are tight. A good thing to do in an RV is to tighten any neutral and ground bus screws occasionally. Motion or vibration may cause them to loosen.

[tammyinwv]

smkettner wrote:

tammyinwv wrote:
Since dealer said the first time we got blown appliances the switch was faulty and replaced under warranty but they INSISTED it could not have damaged the appliances.

Time to find a new dealer that has a technition that understands split phase electric service.

That might not help either, as I have an email direct from Progressive Dynamics stating that a transfer switch CAN cause open Neutral. I sent it to dealer, and Anthony at Heartland RV. They then told me that if I had open neutral I would have burnt or melted wires which I did not. So I again contacted progressive, and they said that symptoms of an open neutral could well be ONLY a series of blown appliances which I had. Even with this email direct from the maker of my transfer switch, they still deny warranty. Beleive me, I have that email saved.
Tammy

[time2roll]

tammyinwv wrote:
Since dealer said the first time we got blown appliances the switch was faulty and replaced under warranty but they INSISTED it could not have damaged the appliances.

Time to find a new dealer that has a technition that understands split phase electric service.

[tammyinwv]

westend wrote:
I would be getting a second opinion on the problem with a different set of hands and eyes. The #1 suspect would be a loose neutral wire in the load center.

westend could you explain how or if we could check this?
Tammy