Progressive EMS-HW50C unit

[BillyandKris]

We have Porgressive EMS-HW50C about 1.5 years old and hardwired at the dealership into our new camper. Yesterday about 1:00 a.m. we heard this loud tapping noise. We thought we had a large rat in our wall at the rear of camper, but there is no way for anything to get in underneath back there and nothing could be in the wall. Finally narrowed it down to coming from under the pantry so took out bottom shelf to expose the Progressive Power Manager. It was coming from the Progressive device. It would stop and later start back up again. It would go thump and then start in with this erratic tapping or thumping noise. You could even hear it outside the camper with a generator running. You could feel it vibrating the wall. No errors or strange readings on the LED display. It did this off and on for a couple of hours. Called Progressive and he asked for error read-outs. He said there was only electrical components and no moving parts inside it other than a switch. He said to call them back again when it began again. It has not done it since, but we still have the area where it is opened up.

Has anyone had this happen with their hard-wired unit? Everything appears to be in working order.

Thx

[ktmrfs]

One way to think of generators vs. home power is this.

Your home power is close to an "ideal voltage source" That is, the power coming into the house will deliver whatever current it needs to while keeping the voltage constant. Your power line is close to that, what causes voltage to drop is the resistance in the wire between your meter and the device sucking power.

Now, most generators can be thought of as a "current limited non ideal voltage source" It will deliver reasonably constant voltage till it gets to is maximum rated current, then the current remains constant and voltage drops to support that current draw. The output impedance of most smaller generator is reasonably high. that is part of the reason you see the voltage vary by a pretty noticeable amount between no load and full rated load. In the case of the honda 2000, around 20 volts between no load and full load. In our house that same 15A load will show maybe a 1 or 2 volt drop at your outlet, and no measureable drop at the meter.

soundguy: nice way to change the delay. Yes, there are times when the longer delay would be the way to go with the AC.

[SoundGuy]

Learjet wrote:
For reference the Hartland Contactor in the EMS needs 88 votls to close and will drop out 20-77 volts, according to their website.

So yes, even in by-pass you will still get the contactor to open with extreme low voltages.

http://www.hartland-controls.com/#!blank/c1pqo

ktmrfs wrote:
just the info I was looking for, thanks. So that indicated what I expected, the little honda 2000, doesn't just drop below 104V, it must be dropping down below 70ish volts, which is consistent with sound guys data. However, It only drops down for a fraction of a second, as soon as the relay opens, it pops back up, and relay closes again, then repeat.

Yeah, exactly what happens with my own EU2000i, voltage momentarily drops to just 58 volts :E - short duration but enough cycles that even my $20 DVM can catch it, as shown in my video. Without the EMS in the circuit voltage does recover quickly but with it in place the contactor chatters like crazy.

Line power will very very seldom exhibit that type of behaviour, the line power is "stiffer", much lower source impedance so if it is dropping down below 70V you are REALLY drawing lots of power, Even a 75A load or so on a 15A branch circuit (what a 1hp motor draws for a few cycles on startup under load) will only drop the voltage down to around 100V, maybe 90 worst case.

I've never heard of line power being referred to as "stiffer" but yeah, that's about what it is. One of my videos I linked to earlier shows a nominal 120 vac 15 amp source dropping briefly to ~ 105 vac as the A/C compressor ramps up to speed, then recovers quickly following that - nowhere near the severe drop when source power is being supplied by my EU2000i genset. When I repeated this test back in the summer with my current Dometic A/C and the EMS in the circuit there was no contactor chattering at all when running on a 120 vac 15 amp line power source, only when the source was my EU2000i.

However, I suspect the EMS electronics is designed such that it doesn't catch the generator short cycle dropouts AND it can't do anything about the relay chatter with generators, that's a mechancal/electrical function of the relay itself.

Which I'm sure is why Progressive's official position is that their EMS is to be used only with conventional land line power.

On another related topic I went ahead and installed a switch in my Progressive EMS-HW30C so I can switch the delay from 15" (which I would use most of the time) to 136" (which I would use when running the A/C in the summer) without having to open the box and remove the delay jumper. Works like a charm. :B

Progressive Industries EMS-HW30C Delay Switch Mod (4 pics)

[ktmrfs]

Learjet wrote:
For reference the Hartland Contactor in the EMS needs 88 votls to close and will drop out 20-77 volts, according to their website.

So yes, even in by-pass you will still get the contactor to open with extreme low voltages.

http://www.hartland-controls.com/#!blank/c1pqo

just the info I was looking for, thanks. So that indicated what I expected, the little honda 2000, doesn't just drop below 104V, it must be dropping down below 70ish volts, which is consistent with sound guys data. However, It only drops down for a fraction of a second, as soon as the relay opens, it pops back up, and relay closes again, then repeat.

Line power will very very seldom exhibit that type of behaviour, the line power is "stiffer", much lower source impedance so if it is dropping down below 70V you are REALLY drawing lots of power, Even a 75A load or so on a 15A branch circuit (what a 1hp motor draws for a few cycles on startup under load) will only drop the voltage down to around 100V, maybe 90 worst case.

However, I suspect the EMS electronics is designed such that it doesn't catch the generator short cycle dropouts AND it can't do anything about the relay chatter with generators, that's a mechancal/electrical function of the relay itself.

[SoundGuy]

SoundGuy wrote:
Like you I much prefer the shorter delay of just 15" and would only have use for the longer delay during the summer when we might use the A/C. You're right - waiting for that delay sometimes seems like watching grass grow...

brulaz wrote:
Sheesh, you guys are so impatient.

I've usually got about a million things to do setting up camp outside after plugging in the shore power. So power's always on when those are done, no problem, and I've got the long time delay.

Yeah probably, but the reason we much prefer a travel trailer over any other type of rig we've ever owned before is so we have as LITTLE as possible to do to set up. 😛 In my case that usually means my wife is inside the camper as soon as the trailer is parked ... following that the first thing I usually do if she hasn't already beat me to it is run out the main service cable to the power post 'cause once the trailer has power she can do whatever she wants in there. Personally, I consider the trailer "set up" at that point as anything else is fluff that I can do later as I get to it, usually with a glass of wine in hand. :B

That said though it's not so much when camping that I find the delay annoying but when I may be working on the trailer here at the house and I have reason to disconnect & reconnect power several times. To date, if I plan to do it several times, I'll even unplug my hardwire EMS completely, which I can easily do because I wired it in with 30 amp connectors, but installing a switch that would allow me to change the delay from 136" to just 15" without having to open up the EMS and pull the delay jumper would for me be a great solution.

[Learjet]

For reference the Hartland Contactor in the EMS needs 88 votls to close and will drop out 20-77 volts, according to their website.

So yes, even in by-pass you will still get the contactor to open with extreme low voltages.

http://www.hartland-controls.com/#!blank/c1pqo

[brulaz]

SoundGuy wrote:

...
Like you I much prefer the shorter delay of just 15" and would only have use for the longer delay during the summer when we might use the A/C. You're right - waiting for that delay sometimes seems like watching grass grow
...

Sheesh, you guys are so impatient.

I've usually got about a million things to do setting up camp outside after plugging in the shore power. So power's always on when those are done, no problem, and I've got the long time delay.

[SoundGuy]

ktmrfs wrote:
the ems will wait about 30 seconds (programmable) AFTER it sees 120V to close the contactor to give power to the coach.

SoundGuy wrote:
The OP has a Progressive Industries EMS-HW50C with a user settable delay of either 15" or 2:16 which is set with a jumper on the main circuit board. I've got my own EMS-HW30C currently set with the factory default of 15" for the convenience but once next summer rolls around I'll reset it to 2:16 because the Dometic Brisk II A/C we have doesn't have any built in compressor delay as do some A/C units. It's really annoying as I'd much rather leave the EMS set for a 15" delay but it is what it is and at least the EMS offers me the ability to protect the A/C's compressor whereas without it I can't. 🙂

ktmrfs wrote:
I'll bet my 30A unit is also a 15 second delay, just SEEMS like 30 Seconds when your waiting for it to kick in!!!

Depends on the make / model you have ... if it's a TRC with time delay they're all set for a 128" delay except the 50 amp Hardwire Plus which is set for 135", if it's a Progressive Industries unit with time delay it will be fixed at 136" if it's a portable but if it's a hardwire model that same delay can be reset to just 15" - one of several reasons I chose the Progressive EMS-HW30C for my own use.

Like you I much prefer the shorter delay of just 15" and would only have use for the longer delay during the summer when we might use the A/C. You're right - waiting for that delay sometimes seems like watching grass grow but your post has given me an idea ... I think I'll add a simple toggle switch to my EMS so I won't have to open the case to remove the time delay jumper which alters the delay from 15" to 136". That way I can leave it set at 15" for convenience but on those few occasions when we do use A/C I can simply switch the EMS delay to 136". :B

[ktmrfs]

SoundGuy wrote:

ktmrfs wrote:
the ems will wait about 30 seconds (programmable) AFTER it sees 120V to close the contactor to give power to the coach.

The OP has a Progressive Industries EMS-HW50C with a user settable delay of either 15" or 2:16 which is set with a jumper on the main circuit board. I've got my own EMS-HW30C currently set with the factory default of 15" for the convenience but once next summer rolls around I'll reset it to 2:16 because the Dometic Brisk II A/C we have doesn't have any built in compressor delay as do some A/C units. It's really annoying as I'd much rather leave the EMS set for a 15" delay but it is what it is and at least the EMS offers me the ability to protect the A/C's compressor whereas without it I can't. 🙂

I'll bet my 30A unit is also a 15 second delay, just SEEMS like 30 Seconds when your waiting for it to kick in!!!

[TakingThe5th]

Sorry if I am misunderstanding, but when you say you are not getting error codes - the unit should be providing some information including line voltage for each leg in addition to any error codes. Is your display showing this information? If not then the display is not on, the display is not working, or the cable is not plugged in or is defective.

* * on Edit - I just saw your prior post indicating you have a voltage reading. Please disregard this post.

[SoundGuy]

ktmrfs wrote:
the ems will wait about 30 seconds (programmable) AFTER it sees 120V to close the contactor to give power to the coach.

The OP has a Progressive Industries EMS-HW50C with a user settable delay of either 15" or 2:16 which is set with a jumper on the main circuit board. I've got my own EMS-HW30C currently set with the factory default of 15" for the convenience but once next summer rolls around I'll reset it to 2:16 because the Dometic Brisk II A/C we have doesn't have any built in compressor delay as do some A/C units. It's really annoying as I'd much rather leave the EMS set for a 15" delay but it is what it is and at least the EMS offers me the ability to protect the A/C's compressor whereas without it I can't. 🙂

[ktmrfs]

BillyandKris wrote:
Thanks to all for the input. It has given him an idea of something else to check. The power has and is at constant 118-122 V @61 H. Never showed error code and power never disconnected or dropped. The ATS was silent. Sound came from the Progressive EMS and you could put your hand on it and feel it. After reading your inputs and thinking back he says that just a few days before they had replaced the 30 amp breaker on the big generator. Now he wonders if the 50 amp breaker is getting weak. He (being Hubby) says breakers are not meant to be turned off and on constantly and these are turned off and on a lot because we have to check the generator fluid levels almost daily--we turn the breakers off before killing gen--after cranking the gen back up we turn the breakers back on so the gen does not crank up under a full load. Hmm we always turn everything off in the camper so maybe we should stop turning the breakers off since we are not really cranking the gen up under a full load!! BTW we have 50 amp in our camper. The sound has never returned. We may need to get our service guy to replace the 50 amp breaker at the generator. Think we will put our pantry back together and wait and see. Will check on contacts replacement. Maybe we should just bypass the EMS since we really don't need it here with our constant power source. We are totally running on the big generator; no shore power here.

if the generator is prior to the ems no need to turn off the breakers. the ems does what you are looking to do. the ems will wait about 30 seconds (programmable) AFTER it sees 120V to close the contactor to give power to the coach. Same as turning off the breaker till the generator turns on for a while.

[SoundGuy]

ktmrfs wrote:
And you mentioned your experience with the honda generator. In my case my unit has the bypass switch. turning the switch to the bypass position with the generator has no effect on the chatter, it chatters in either case, so even if you had the switch it wouldn't have solved the problem.

Can't say as I never tried it ... with my EU2000i as source power the EMS began to chatter as soon as I dialed up the A/C thermostat to the point where it's compressor kicked on ... in fact the chattering was so dramatic I really wouldn't want to repeat this test just so I could prove your theory about the EMS bypass function. Voltage being outputted from the EMS dropped so badly as the EMS chattered that the lights dimmed and flickered so noticeably that I didn't have the presence of mind to note the EMS voltage reading but simply dialed the thermo back again as quickly as I could to stop what was obviously a "bad event". Running the A/C on fan only of course was fine so I disconnected, unplugged the EMS from the system entirely (which I could easily do because I had installed it using standard 30 amp RV connectors) then repeated the test and the A/C compressor ramped up to speed just fine with no dramatics. How one could allow an EMS to continue to chatter "on and off for a couple of hours" as the OP apparently did is beyond me as it's pretty obvious from the chattering that something just isn't right. :h

[SoundGuy]

BillyandKris wrote:
Maybe we should just bypass the EMS since we really don't need it here with our constant power source. We are totally running on the big generator; no shore power here.

:h I would have thought your ATS should have been wired to switch the EMS out of the circuit when running on the generator - no? :@ Yet another reason IMO to install a hardwire EMS using connectors instead of just hard wiring it in - whenever there may be a need (such as apparently in this case) total removal from the circuit takes but seconds. :B

Which raises another point - if your EMS is not bypassed when running on the genset then this would be a good reason to get the system rewired so it is ... but if you never run on shore power why did you have an EMS installed in the first place? :h

"Big generator" or not I'd say that's what's causing your EMS to chatter ... run it on shore power and I bet it would be fine, unless of course the relay points in the contactor are now so pitted it can't help but chatter. :M

[BillyandKris]

Thanks to all for the input. It has given him an idea of something else to check. The power has and is at constant 118-122 V @61 H. Never showed error code and power never disconnected or dropped. The ATS was silent. Sound came from the Progressive EMS and you could put your hand on it and feel it. After reading your inputs and thinking back he says that just a few days before they had replaced the 30 amp breaker on the big generator. Now he wonders if the 50 amp breaker is getting weak. He (being Hubby) says breakers are not meant to be turned off and on constantly and these are turned off and on a lot because we have to check the generator fluid levels almost daily--we turn the breakers off before killing gen--after cranking the gen back up we turn the breakers back on so the gen does not crank up under a full load. Hmm we always turn everything off in the camper so maybe we should stop turning the breakers off since we are not really cranking the gen up under a full load!! BTW we have 50 amp in our camper. The sound has never returned. We may need to get our service guy to replace the 50 amp breaker at the generator. Think we will put our pantry back together and wait and see. Will check on contacts replacement. Maybe we should just bypass the EMS since we really don't need it here with our constant power source. We are totally running on the big generator; no shore power here.