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Simplest battery monitor and shunt? Advice for non-expert

profdant139
Explorer II
Explorer II
I have seen references in various threads to shunts and battery monitors. I have searched the archives for a very basic "how to" and have come up empty. Youtube has some instructional stuff, but it tends to be fairly technical.

A little background info -- my battery sits in a box on the tongue of my trailer. I am not an electronics expert at all. What I am looking for is a fairly easy, fairly inexpensive way to monitor the capacity of my battery on a real time basis.

I'm guessing that I will have to install the monitor inside the trailer and run wires to a shunt installed on the negative cable near the battery.

In your opinion, which is the most basic and inexpensive monitor? Are shunts sold separately from the monitors? What gauge cable does the shunt/monitor require?

Thanks in advance for your advice and expertise!
2012 Fun Finder X-139 "Boondock Style" (axle-flipped and extra insulation)
2013 Toyota Tacoma Off-Road (semi-beefy tires and components)
Our trips -- pix and text
About our trailer
"A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single list."
68 REPLIES 68

3_tons
Explorer III
Explorer III
“So that is now my question -- for those of you who are fans of Victron-type monitors, how do you deal with the problem of AHDS ("Amp/hour dwindle syndrome")?”

You’re being distracted by a clever marketing tactic which glosses over the weakness inherent with the Smartgauge voltage-tap only meter design (what’s their fairy dust??) …You’ll find no more accurate a meter than a shunt based meter, and since you have FWC batteries, a budget meter should easily do the job (an even more sophisticated meter req’d for LFP), this with zero problems tracking SOC - and if you’re of the persuasion that the batts capacity decline will result in a perceptible inaccuracy over a time, then just simply re-program to a slightly lower capacity in a few years…But after about 14 yrs of measuring my former FLA SOC’s with a shunt based Xantrex LinkLite meter I have some difficulty relating to your perceived concern…However, I might well agree if we were talking about something like the Mars Rover 🙂

3 tons

Skibane
Explorer II
Explorer II
pianotuna wrote:
Skibane, that's why it needs no shunt.


Measuring the battery voltage 1500 times per second doesn't explain why it needs no shunt.

What we're seeing here is two unrelated facts - and then an inexplicable claim that one of them is why the other exists.

Fact: The capitol of South Dakota is Pierre.
Fact: Some pizzas contain anchovies.
Claim: Pierre is the capitol of South Dakota because some pizzas contain anchovies.

profdant139
Explorer II
Explorer II
Well, I am learning a lot and have (as usual) learned myself into a corner. I was leaning toward an Amp/hour counter, like the Victron. (Am I right about that -- is that the main advantage of the Victron over the voltage-based monitors? I certainly want to know how many amp/hours I've got in the tank!)

But then I went to the Smartgauge site and started to plow my way through the article Don referenced above. And I came to this significant passage:

"The problem with traditional Ah or Coulomb counters is keeping them accurate. As batteries age their capacity changes, the charge efficiency changes as does the Peukert’s constant. A battery is an ever moving target, so the 100Ah battery you bought three years ago may now only be a 75Ah battery."

I'm going to ignore Prof. Peukert -- I only use one battery at a time. (I know, I know -- I am leaving money on the table by not using the batteries in parallel -- but I just like the rock-solid safety of using one and holding another as a spare, just in case.)

But the big problem is that I really don't know, and won't know, the true amp/hour capacity of my dumb lead-acid deep cycle battery. When it's brand-new, it's rated at 110 a/h, which means I can draw it down to about half of that without getting a pain in my anode (or whatever it is that happens when you over-discharge an old-school FLA battery).

But as the article points out, FLAs degrade over time, even when we baby them by never going below 12.1 volts (or 50% state of charge).

So that is now my question -- for those of you who are fans of Victron-type monitors, how do you deal with the problem of AHDS ("Amp/hour dwindle syndrome")?

That article goes on to say, by the way, that you can determine if your capacity is dwindling by conducting a 20 hour load test. The author says that no one really does that, in the real world.

My guess is that if you have lithium batteries, you don't have to worry about this phenomenon.

Bottom line -- if actual battery capacity is a moving target, then an amp/hour counter may provide a misleading over-estimate of the remaining juice. And if I have to indulge in guesswork, I can just whip out my cheap old-school multi-meter, measure the voltage, interpolate state of charge, and call it done!

Thanks again for all of the expert input - I know that this is a surprisingly touchy subject, and reasonable minds can differ about all of this. Battery care is both a science and an art!
2012 Fun Finder X-139 "Boondock Style" (axle-flipped and extra insulation)
2013 Toyota Tacoma Off-Road (semi-beefy tires and components)
Our trips -- pix and text
About our trailer
"A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single list."

pianotuna
Nomad III
Nomad III
Skibane wrote:
pianotuna wrote:
Skibane wrote:
pianotuna wrote:
Skibane wrote:
pianotuna wrote:
Hi,

If you are NOT using Li batteries the very best meter may be the smartgauge. It actually tracks the "real" capacity. It checks the voltage several thousand times per minute.

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/


I don't look at my meter several thousand times per minute.

Why would my meter need to make several thousand battery voltage measurements every minute?


Read about how it works at this link: https://marinehowto.com/smartgauge-battery-monitoring-unit/


There isn't anything on that page which explains why it needs to measure battery voltage several thousand times a minute.

The word "minute" doesn't even appear on that page.


It checks 1500 per second. When I was in school a second was part of a minute. But perhaps they don't teach that anymore.


Why does that matter?

Why does my battery meter need to check its voltage 1500 times per second?

How is this a meaningful feature, and not just techno-babble?


Skibane, that's why it needs no shunt. If you want more information ask them, not me. Merry Christmas.
Regards, Don
My ride is a 28 foot Class C, 256 watts solar, 556 amp-hours of Telcom jars, 3000 watt Magnum hybrid inverter, Sola Basic Autoformer, Microair Easy Start.

3_tons
Explorer III
Explorer III
IMHO, Smartguage’s explication seems more like hyperbole and marketing…How a simple Voltage only design can accurately compute SOC leaves me guessing …. FWIW, I’ll stick with what I empirically know from repeated load testing that really, accurately works…

3 tons

Skibane
Explorer II
Explorer II
pianotuna wrote:
Skibane wrote:
pianotuna wrote:
Skibane wrote:
pianotuna wrote:
Hi,

If you are NOT using Li batteries the very best meter may be the smartgauge. It actually tracks the "real" capacity. It checks the voltage several thousand times per minute.

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/


I don't look at my meter several thousand times per minute.

Why would my meter need to make several thousand battery voltage measurements every minute?


Read about how it works at this link: https://marinehowto.com/smartgauge-battery-monitoring-unit/


There isn't anything on that page which explains why it needs to measure battery voltage several thousand times a minute.

The word "minute" doesn't even appear on that page.


It checks 1500 per second. When I was in school a second was part of a minute. But perhaps they don't teach that anymore.


Why does that matter?

Why does my battery meter need to check its voltage 1500 times per second?

How is this a meaningful feature, and not just techno-babble?

Boon_Docker
Explorer III
Explorer III
LOL

pianotuna
Nomad III
Nomad III
Skibane wrote:
pianotuna wrote:
Skibane wrote:
pianotuna wrote:
Hi,

If you are NOT using Li batteries the very best meter may be the smartgauge. It actually tracks the "real" capacity. It checks the voltage several thousand times per minute.

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/


I don't look at my meter several thousand times per minute.

Why would my meter need to make several thousand battery voltage measurements every minute?


Read about how it works at this link: https://marinehowto.com/smartgauge-battery-monitoring-unit/


There isn't anything on that page which explains why it needs to measure battery voltage several thousand times a minute.

The word "minute" doesn't even appear on that page.


It checks 1500 per second. When I was in school a second was part of a minute. But perhaps they don't teach that anymore.
Regards, Don
My ride is a 28 foot Class C, 256 watts solar, 556 amp-hours of Telcom jars, 3000 watt Magnum hybrid inverter, Sola Basic Autoformer, Microair Easy Start.

Skibane
Explorer II
Explorer II
pianotuna wrote:
Skibane wrote:
pianotuna wrote:
Hi,

If you are NOT using Li batteries the very best meter may be the smartgauge. It actually tracks the "real" capacity. It checks the voltage several thousand times per minute.

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/


I don't look at my meter several thousand times per minute.

Why would my meter need to make several thousand battery voltage measurements every minute?


Read about how it works at this link: https://marinehowto.com/smartgauge-battery-monitoring-unit/


There isn't anything on that page which explains why it needs to measure battery voltage several thousand times a minute.

The word "minute" doesn't even appear on that page.

3_tons
Explorer III
Explorer III
2oldman wrote:
Matt_Colie wrote:
While as an installer, I love the idea of the Victron Smart Shunt, it concerns me that it needs a smartphone.
I only wish every device had an app - and eventually they will. What bugs me is having to fork out more money just for a monitor for my inverter. And my smartphone doesn't see much seawater, or any water.

My phone is an integral part of being just about anywhere. I'm not 'camping' and getting away from it all, I'm just living somewhere else.


Victrons BMV 12 doesn’t require a
smart phone

2oldman
Explorer II
Explorer II
Matt_Colie wrote:
While as an installer, I love the idea of the Victron Smart Shunt, it concerns me that it needs a smartphone.
I only wish every device had an app - and eventually they will. What bugs me is having to fork out more money just for a monitor for my inverter. And my smartphone doesn't see much seawater, or any water. It takes about 8 seconds to fire up the Victron app.

My phone is an integral part of being just about anywhere. I'm not 'camping' and getting away from it all, I'm just living somewhere else.
"If I'm wearing long pants, I'm too far north" - 2oldman

3_tons
Explorer III
Explorer III
Skibane wrote:
pianotuna wrote:
Hi,

If you are NOT using Li batteries the very best meter may be the smartgauge. It actually tracks the "real" capacity. It checks the voltage several thousand times per minute.

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/


I don't look at my meter several thousand times per minute.

Why would my meter need to make several thousand battery voltage measurements every minute?


I check the Smartguage meter out,
and having no shunt it appears to be strictly voltage based…Maybe I missed it, but it looks like they are keeping their SOC methodology a well kept secret (I donno??).

3 tons

Matt_Colie
Explorer II
Explorer II
While as an installer, I love the idea of the Victron Smart Shunt, it concerns me that it needs a smartphone. Many of my clients shut off the phone and pack it in a Pelican box on departure. These devices are not know to love sea water.

I don't have one because I really like the old Bogart Trimetric staring me in the face and being hard to ignore. If I have to fire up an app to know the status of the house bank, that is just too inconvenient for me as I have enough to do already.

Matt
Matt & Mary Colie
A sailor, his bride and their black dogs (one dear dog is waiting for us at the bridge) going to see some dry places that have Geocaches in a coach made the year we married.

2112
Explorer II
Explorer II
pianotuna wrote:
Hi,

If you are NOT using Li batteries the very best meter may be the smartgauge. It actually tracks the "real" capacity. It checks the voltage several thousand times per minute.

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/
Balmar sells the Smartgauge in the US.

It appears to have been replaced with the SG200. Same features and includes LiFePO4 capability. Very impressive system. I couldn't prove this but it appears to communicate using a CAN network.
2011 Ford F-150 EcoBoost SuperCab Max Tow, 2084# Payload, 11,300# Tow,
Timbrens
2013 KZ Durango 2857

pianotuna
Nomad III
Nomad III
Skibane wrote:
pianotuna wrote:
Hi,

If you are NOT using Li batteries the very best meter may be the smartgauge. It actually tracks the "real" capacity. It checks the voltage several thousand times per minute.

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/


I don't look at my meter several thousand times per minute.

Why would my meter need to make several thousand battery voltage measurements every minute?


Read about how it works at this link: https://marinehowto.com/smartgauge-battery-monitoring-unit/
Regards, Don
My ride is a 28 foot Class C, 256 watts solar, 556 amp-hours of Telcom jars, 3000 watt Magnum hybrid inverter, Sola Basic Autoformer, Microair Easy Start.