Diesel vs gas......................

[blt2ski]

OK folks, there have been a few to many diesel vs gas threads that have shall we say gone to "Hell and a hand basket"! So if all of you would put in you BEST, no flaming reasons for going gas vs diesel, pro and con, I will either leave your thread, or copy and paste pertinant info to the 4 posts of pro and con of diesel or gas. This can include the GM 8.1 vs Dmax or Ford V-8/10 vs PSD etc too.

Be real and honest in you answers, not hear say, flaming etc PLEASE!

If posts are good ones, I will leave, if inflamatory or trolling in nature, they will be deleted! I will get this stick'd to the top for future parusing for those that need this type of info.

Added 6-23-04

We are getting closer to answers I am looking for etc.

Stuff like Ken's - T-Bone posts are good. There are a few others of you that have not posted, some with a 9 point question and answer type to figure out how you went with one or the other. If you are one of those, PLEASE repost in this thread. I may have to look up whom has done this and PM you, but if you think this is you, you now know what to do.

Also, for those of you with $ per gallon for either fuel right now, I would prefer to see a post with ...."in my area, diesel is typically .10 less than unleaded" then explain your numbers. As currently in the Seattle area, diesel and unleaded are any where from 2.05 -2.30 per gallon, with mid test .10 more and premium about .20 more, with equal high low splits. Two weeks ago those prices were upwards of .30 -.40 per gallon more. people were posting $ per gallon that were for me. "I wish" If someone is reading your post a year from now, they may want to know where your paying 1.65, when the price of fuel is over $3 per gallon. Let's keep prices out of it if possible.

Bert and tin tipi, got into a good discusion on the pros and cons of RPM's, drive train etc. I would prefer to NOT see the quote of the other in responding threads, maybe just write a quick wording of re tranny gearing, instead of the whole 40 words or so in that paragragh, so the repsonse is shorter if possible quicker and easier to read etc.

I have deleted some 15+/- posts, that were off topic etc. Please note, I am trying to keep this at the top, as the ONLY gas/diesel thread in this area. So if one is trying to decide, we do not have to go thru this BS any more. As such, I will be deleting ANY future posts close to resembling this type of topic. I may have to change "this" title to a better one, if one has a better sounding title, to be more positive, better claification, let me know here, or in a PM/e-mail, what ever you feel most comfortible with.

Again thank you for all of you that are keeping responses positive, etc.

Also we could use a few more positive reasons to go gas, as many can see I have both gas and diesel, both have a place! Both have positive reasons to buy that fuel, lets keep the threads etc to that purpose only!

Marty

[hermant]

LASTLS1 wrote:
Options to consider. Deisel is .10 more a gallon. My new F350 6.0 Powerstroke gets between 8-11mpg. That is empty no towing. I really think I could get the same milage with a gas engine. After having a 7.3 powerstroke for 5 yrs I'm REALLY disapointed with this new engine. Also for some reason it smells BAD!!! As far as Chevy or Dodge I don't know. I would recommend the older 7.3 power stroke. Better mileage and better for pulling heavy loads. Hope this helps, Andy.

Lastls1,

If you're only getting "8-11mpg" empty, it sounds like something is wrong. You should do half again better than that on average unless you have a severe case of lead foot. Maybe you ought to have that beast looked at. JMHO.

Tom

[LASTLS1]

Options to consider. Deisel is .10 more a gallon. My new F350 6.0 Powerstroke gets between 8-11mpg. That is empty no towing. I really think I could get the same milage with a gas engine. After having a 7.3 powerstroke for 5 yrs I'm REALLY disapointed with this new engine. Also for some reason it smells BAD!!! As far as Chevy or Dodge I don't know. I would recommend the older 7.3 power stroke. Better mileage and better for pulling heavy loads. Hope this helps, Andy.

[BertP]

Hi Paul,

Yes, that is quite the hill. I thought that the Coquihalla was bad, but I don't think it has a hill that long. For that matter, I don't think that the Grapevine in California has a single incline that long. There are plenty of 6% grades, but they are relatively short compared to Kelowna.

I wasn't disappointed in the DMax's performance on that hill. Yes, I would have liked to blast up it in OD, but 3rd is OK too 🙂 For the first time, though, I am seriously considering adding a chip to my truck. I have been looking at the juice with Attitude, but I really like the new A2. Anyone else looked at the A2 yet?

Bert

[Paul_Clancy]

BertP wrote:
hindle_az -
And, no, a diesel will not always hold OD. I came out of Kelowna BC a couple of weeks ago in my 3500 dually D/A and a 10,000 - 11,000 lb 5er on back. Going up a 6 - 8% grade, the best I could do was around 52 mph in 3rd gear. As soon as I crested the grade, the tranny grabbed 4th, but it wouldn't coming up the hill.

Bert

Hi Bert...small world,
That is a heckuva climb up the connector. I did it a week ago in my da with 6000lb 5th and it held 4th @110 all the way up. Had 1/8th tank of fuel left when I hit langley. Gas truck was nearly empty at Merrit. If I went to a larger 5th I'd add the edge ez module to hold 4th. My small block gasser with the same load nearly expired on the same grade, overheat , stink etc.. I'm very happy with the D/a 2500. Never going back to gas.

[hindle_az]

BertP wrote:
hindle_az - Your reference to a gasser of the same displacement "without forced induction" struck me as a little misleading. I simply wanted to point out that a gasser will produce far more power per unit of displacement than a diesel without a turbo. And, there are still quite a few gassers in cars that are turbo'd from the factory. If they turbo'd the truck gassers in the factory, the cost would be a lot less than you think. If I add a turbo to a gasser on my own, the cost will be very high but not if it is done at the factory.

As for the tranny shifting, that is a tranny problem, not an engine problem. If the truck couldn't hold the hill in OD, then the tranny should not shift intoo OD. Whether there is a gasser or diesel behind that tranny is irrelavent.

And, no, a diesel will not always hold OD. I came out of Kelowna BC a couple of weeks ago in my 3500 dually D/A and a 10,000 - 11,000 lb 5er on back. Going up a 6 - 8% grade, the best I could do was around 52 mph in 3rd gear. As soon as I crested the grade, the tranny grabbed 4th, but it wouldn't coming up the hill.

Lynn Rupper - Your engine has less power than mine, yet you are able to climb a 6% hill in direct with a heavier trailer than I have? It is possible if the tranny ratios allow it, but mine wouldn't. When my tranny grabbed 4th, the rpm dropped from 3000 to 2400. I don't have the power curve for the LLY in front of me, but I think it develops a max of around 250 HP at that rpm. It would appear that that hill demanded more than 250 HP, so my tranny couldn't upshift.

Bert

I agree from the factory would be cheaper then a retro fit. I also agree that horsepower and torque would be as good if not better then the Diesel.

Once again I never said a Diesel will hold OD up any grade.

So why doesn't the commercial trucking industry move in that direction???? To be honest it's not that deep for me and I don't really care.

What I do know is what is available as a consumer and what the capabilities are for the options out there and there are pro's and con's to both solutions.

[hindle_az]

kennard04 wrote:

hindle_az wrote:
BertP, I said struggling because after it downshifted got back up to speed and went back into overdrive a couple of miles later it would downshift and then repeat this pattern over and over. It was struggling!!!

Bottom line is the truck couldn't maintain the speed in overdrive. A diesel would have. Period.

a diesel will pull any grade in OD ? Come on man, any blanket statement surely will have plenty of holes in it. Gassers rev, diesels don't rev as much but if you'll look at the rpm range of the new Ford 6.0, it's MUCH higher revvin than the 7.3 and the DMax/Cummins. HP is made by multiplying torque times rpm. You can have all the torque in the world and go slowly up a hill. But you'll need rpm to stay at speed, rpm and hp.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I've never said a Diesel will pull any grade in OD. My point was in the same situation my truck doesn't down shift and pulls OD just fine with the trailer. Obviously with a steep enough grade the truck shifts down as any truck would pulling or hauling a load. However, I have the same truck as my friend with a Diesel and have a simliar size/weight trailer and have towed over the same route many times and always pulls OD in cruise control at about the same speed 70-75 no problems. That was my point.

[Lynn_Rupper]

Hey Bert, my Dodge 2500 is a 4x2, reg cab so probably weighs about 1000lbs less than your 3500 D/A. I just stick it in 5th and hold till it gets there. I have to back off the throttle on most 6% grades due to high rpm. I've only been on one grade that I had to keep it in 4th gear, but I started from a dead stop and I think it was between 6-8%. From what I've read on the cone type performance air filter I have, is that it is supposed to add about 25hp and 15ft/lbs. So I figure I'm at about 325hp and 575 ft/lbs. I would love to put a Banks dual exhaust on the truck. My exhaust necks down to 3 inches before entering the stock muffler.

P.S. A manual 6spd makes a lot of difference in the mountains. You can hold any gear as long as you don't lug the engine or over rev the RPM's. It also comes down the other side in 5th gear at 50/55mph with the exhaust brake engaged.

[BertP]

hindle_az - Your reference to a gasser of the same displacement "without forced induction" struck me as a little misleading. I simply wanted to point out that a gasser will produce far more power per unit of displacement than a diesel without a turbo. And, there are still quite a few gassers in cars that are turbo'd from the factory. If they turbo'd the truck gassers in the factory, the cost would be a lot less than you think. If I add a turbo to a gasser on my own, the cost will be very high but not if it is done at the factory.

As for the tranny shifting, that is a tranny problem, not an engine problem. If the truck couldn't hold the hill in OD, then the tranny should not shift intoo OD. Whether there is a gasser or diesel behind that tranny is irrelavent.

And, no, a diesel will not always hold OD. I came out of Kelowna BC a couple of weeks ago in my 3500 dually D/A and a 10,000 - 11,000 lb 5er on back. Going up a 6 - 8% grade, the best I could do was around 52 mph in 3rd gear. As soon as I crested the grade, the tranny grabbed 4th, but it wouldn't coming up the hill.

Lynn Rupper - Your engine has less power than mine, yet you are able to climb a 6% hill in direct with a heavier trailer than I have? It is possible if the tranny ratios allow it, but mine wouldn't. When my tranny grabbed 4th, the rpm dropped from 3000 to 2400. I don't have the power curve for the LLY in front of me, but I think it develops a max of around 250 HP at that rpm. It would appear that that hill demanded more than 250 HP, so my tranny couldn't upshift.

Bert

[Lynn_Rupper]

2003 Dodge Ram 2500 HO CTD, 6spd, Reg Cab, 4x2.
Highway: 23.5/mpg at 55mph, 21.5/mpg at 70mph
Town: 18.5/mpg
Towing: 12,000 lbs, 11.5/mpg at 60/65mph

Power Climbing: 12K lbs Trailer, 6% grade, 5th gear, 70mph 3/4 throttle (3000rpm)

Engine: Stock 305hp, 555lb/tq
Goodies: Banks exhaust brake, performance air filter

[hindle_az]

BertP, I said struggling because after it downshifted got back up to speed and went back into overdrive a couple of miles later it would downshift and then repeat this pattern over and over. It was struggling!!!

Bottom line is the truck couldn't maintain the speed in overdrive. A diesel would have. Period.

[hindle_az]

BertP, why do you think I said (Naturally Aspirated) because I know the Diesel's are Turbo'd.

I'm sure that without the turbo you wouldn't make near the torque that they do. That doesn't change the fact that Diesel's are turbo'd from the factory and the gassers are not. Turbo the gasser and now you just spent damn near the same amount for the Diesel upgrade but you still get piss poor gas mileage. You have to change your gearing and with the turbo you better start putting in the exspensive stuff. No more 87 octane or you will be knocking at the sight of the first hill.

So where are your savings after all that. Don't know about other places but here Diesel is about 30 cents cheaper then premium.

Uhhh....of course that might change tomorrow. LOL


BarryPh1, personally I believe with a trailer of that size you could go with a Titan or F-150 and be fine. However, if you decide to upgrade your trailer then you might be unhappy in the future. If you know this is it then a 2500 might be overkill not worth the extra dough.

[BarryPh1]

Well this is great, I am looking at purchasing a 250 or 2500 series truck in the near future, and I am unsure of which truck or gas vs. diesel to go with, and now more confused than ever from all the posts I have read. From the posts I have read, which have been many, most tend to lean toward the diesel as far as an economical standpoint.

This will primarily be my work vehicle, which will not involve towing, just running around town, stop and go, stop and go, with maybe one camping trip planned every month to month and a half. Is it still smart to go route of a diesel, trailer only weighing 5000 lbs., or go gas?

Then I have the BIG question of "Do I even need an 250 or 2500 series truck for a camper of my size, should I drop back down to a 150 series? (TT is an 06 Outback 25RS-S with a weight as I said of around 4800 to 5000 lbs)

[BertP]

hindle_az wrote:
LOL...sure the same gear ratios will put out the same RPM but there is NO WAY a gasser of the same displacement (without forced induction) is going to pull anything of substantial size in comparison with the Diesel counterpart unless it's running lower gears.

Before you laugh too much, you should have a look under the hood of your truck. See that round rusty looking thing on the top of the engine at the back? That is your turbo charger. How do you think your diesel would stand up against a gasser of similar displacement if both of them were naturally aspirated? That 6.0l gasser would blow the doors off your truck even if it was pulling 10,000 lb up a 6% incline and you were running empty if your turbo died.

hindle_az wrote:
I have a GMC2500HD duramx and rode with a guy that pulls a simliar size trailer as mine also running a GMC but a gasser. His truck was constantly shifting and struggling to maintain 70MPH on somewhat on flat grades with a small head wind. My truck in the same situation would be in overdrive with cruise control and getting 5 to 6 more MPG. Can you imagine what would happen if it was running the same gear ratio of my diesel? The Diesel's can pull the taller gear ratio because they have the torque that simply isn't there with a gasser hence the better mileage, less shifts, etc...

Why do you say "struggling"? A gasser generally develops its power at higher rpm than a diesel, so it would be appropriate for the gasser to downshift before the diesel. That does not mean it is "struggling", just that it is doing what it is supposed to do.

Also, notice that I said "generally". There are many diesels available now and more being developed that produce their power at 4,000 or more rpm.

hindle_az wrote:
Obviously everything has pro's and con's but if you do any decent amount of towing with a large trailer Diesel wins on paper everytime.

If you can't deal with the smoke, dirty pumps, noise then get the gasser.

Then, by your own admission, diesels do not win every time. Many people do not like the stink or noise of diesels or the mess always found around the diesel pumps at gas stations. The GM 8.1l gasser will pull with any unmodified diesel available today from any manufacturer. This is not as cut and dried an issue as many would like people to believe. If you like diesels, great, get one. If you don't, great, buy a gasser. There are pros and cons to both.

Bert

[hindle_az]

Oh, and added cost of Diesel option.

[hindle_az]

BertP wrote:
tjcocker - It sounds like you have a nice truck now. But, how much of the difference you feel towing with the new truck vs the old one is because it has a diesel engine and how much is because it is an F250 vs an F150? The F250 is a much more substantial vehicle than the F150 - that's not knocking the F150, just recognizing that the F250 is bigger and heavier than the F150 in almost every respect. Even if the two trucks had exactly the same engine and tranny, you would notice a big difference.

kenoncooch - What you say is true, but I spend a lot of time in the right lane on grades as well and I have a diesel. I know that there are many people who would have you believe that my 3500 CC Dually D/A will pull a 15,000 lb trailer up a 45* grade in OD at 75 mph. The truth is it won't. I have spent a fair amount of time in 4th and even 3rd going up long steep grades pulling my 10,000+ lb 5er. Also, the gassers rev at exactly the same rpm as the diesels at highway speed if they have a tranny with the same (or close) OD ratio behind them. The 1500HD I had with a 6.0l gasser revved at the same rpm as my DMax on the highway. Yes, a gasser will downshift earlier than a diesel, but that doesn't mean that a diesel won't downshift.

Bert

LOL...sure the same gear ratios will put out the same RPM but there is NO WAY a gasser of the same displacement (without forced induction) is going to pull anything of substantial size in comparison with the Diesel counterpart unless it's running lower gears.

I have a GMC2500HD duramx and rode with a guy that pulls a simliar size trailer as mine also running a GMC but a gasser. His truck was constantly shifting and struggling to maintain 70MPH on somewhat on flat grades with a small head wind. My truck in the same situation would be in overdrive with cruise control and getting 5 to 6 more MPG. Can you imagine what would happen if it was running the same gear ratio of my diesel? The Diesel's can pull the taller gear ratio because they have the torque that simply isn't there with a gasser hence the better mileage, less shifts, etc...

Obviously everything has pro's and con's but if you do any decent amount of towing with a large trailer Diesel wins on paper everytime.

If you can't deal with the smoke, dirty pumps, noise then get the gasser.