Electric vehicles

[DutchmenSport]

this is long, and I put it under "towing" since there is an interest in electric towing vehicles and they may impact our futures.

I've been following the many threads and topics surrounding the subject of electric vehicles. I'm a 100% skeptic that true electric vehicles, especially trucks for towing RV trailers and such, will ever work successfully.

Well, here's a real, true blue situation for a "no vote" from me.

The big hoopla-and-hollar in Indianapolis all Summer has been the building of the "Red line" down town Indianapolis, which is a dedicated lane of traffic for the new IndyGo busses. The new IndyGo busses are all electric.

Well, there's a fly in the ointment now! It turns out, with cold weather (It got down to 5 degrees last night, yes, Nov 13), the batteries won't hold a charge! HA! Millions of dollars spent and now the busses won't hold enough charge to even finish a single run.

Here's a link to the Channel 6 television article: Click here.

But not knowing how long the article will be on-line, the text is below:


IndyGo electric buses having battery problems, can't handle the cold

INDIANAPOLIS — The IndyGo electric buses are already showing signs of trouble as the temperatures plunge. It's a problem Call 6 Investigates first exposed in March, and now it's happening.

Once the temperatures took a dip below 50 degrees, the electric buses began having problems holding a charge.

The city's Red Line system is under pressure to keep its promised schedule of buses showing up on time. It's a challenge as Indy's weather is getting colder.

In the past two weeks, as the thermometer hit 50 degrees and below buses which left the garage fully charged fell victim to the cold.

KEEP UP | IndyGo Red Line Project |

Their 'SOC,' which stands for 'State of Charge,' became too low to complete their route, and they were pulled out of service to be recharged.

The buses are manufactured by China-based 'BYD,' which stands for 'Build Your Dreams.' Other cities have returned BYD buses, and yet IndyGo seemed committed to the bus manufacturer company.

"At the end of the day, we have a contract," Bryan Luellen, IndyGos VP of Public Affairs, said. "They have promised to deliver a solution that will work for our application. If we were to make a decision to send those buses back, that means we would have to stop at Red Line service. And we are committed to providing Red Line service, and the company is committed to holding their part of the deal in the contract."

Call 6 Investigates obtained information which shows at least nine buses unable to keep a full battery charge since November 1, and requiring replacements to take their place on the Red Line:

1971:20%
1976:20%
1988: 16%
1985: 18%
1972: 20%
1976:25%
1984: 20%
1992: 20%
1998:24%
IndyGo says its been aware that this was going to happen.

That's why the bus manufacturer BYD is offering to install two charging stations to help address the problem.

IndyGo says BYD will spend $4 million on that project at no cost to taxpayers.

"So, each time the bus reaches this en-route charging station at the end of the road, it will charge for about ten minutes, and that will basically allow that bus to operate and definitely out there on the road for up to 15 hours, potentially," Luellen said.

By: Rafael Sánchez


IndyGo Red Line.JPG
INDIANAPOLIS — The IndyGo electric buses are already showing signs of trouble as the temperatures plunge. It's a problem Call 6 Investigates first exposed in March, and now it's happening.

Once the temperatures took a dip below 50 degrees, the electric buses began having problems holding a charge.

The city's Red Line system is under pressure to keep its promised schedule of buses showing up on time. It's a challenge as Indy's weather is getting colder.

In the past two weeks, as the thermometer hit 50 degrees and below buses which left the garage fully charged fell victim to the cold.

KEEP UP | IndyGo Red Line Project |

Their 'SOC,' which stands for 'State of Charge,' became too low to complete their route, and they were pulled out of service to be recharged.

The buses are manufactured by China-based 'BYD,' which stands for 'Build Your Dreams.' Other cities have returned BYD buses, and yet IndyGo seemed committed to the bus manufacturer company.


"At the end of the day, we have a contract," Bryan Luellen, IndyGos VP of Public Affairs, said. "They have promised to deliver a solution that will work for our application. If we were to make a decision to send those buses back, that means we would have to stop at Red Line service. And we are committed to providing Red Line service, and the company is committed to holding their part of the deal in the contract."

Call 6 Investigates obtained information which shows at least nine buses unable to keep a full battery charge since November 1, and requiring replacements to take their place on the Red Line:

1971:20%
1976:20%
1988: 16%
1985: 18%
1972: 20%
1976:25%
1984: 20%
1992: 20%
1998:24%
IndyGo says its been aware that this was going to happen.

That's why the bus manufacturer BYD is offering to install two charging stations to help address the problem.

IndyGo says BYD will spend $4 million on that project at no cost to taxpayers.

"So, each time the bus reaches this en-route charging station at the end of the road, it will charge for about ten minutes, and that will basically allow that bus to operate and definitely out there on the road for up to 15 hours, potentially," Luellen said.

RECENT | IndyGo owed thousands due to Red Line fare delays |


The new charging stations are expected to be installed in January, which on average, is the coldest month in Indiana.

"We're not going to pay a discounted price, but each of these buses out there in the marketplace, this is new technology," Luellen said.

"As the technology continues to evolve and we look at placing our next order, we will make some tough calls," Luellen said. "We will have to look at whether we exercise existing options with BYD or whether we go out to bid (and) have another manufacturer provide these vehicles."

Each one of the Red Line buses is $1.2 million.

IndyGo is waiting for the buses to pass federal inspection before paying the bill.

IndyGo submitted the following statement to Call 6:

I’m sure you remember the news from last winter when the cold temperatures began impacting our range testing. Over the winter, we worked with BYD and they have been good partners in providing resolution. In May we announced the resolution: inductive charging on route ( https://www.indygo.net/indygo-finalizes-new-strategy-to-charge-electric-buses/).

Since we knew the inductive charging would take months to manufacture and install, we modified our service delivery strategy. Every bus assigned to the Red Line each day is scheduled for around 200 miles on average. On weekdays, the schedule calls for 8 buses to come back to the garage and recharge.

This Wednesday, an additional 4 buses did come back to the garage for a charge. This happened partially due to weather, but the big change is that on Sunday the 27th, we implemented a new driver schedule. This means operators who had not previously driven the Red Line are now on the route.

Driving these electric vehicles and getting the most range out of them does require a different driving style. The buses are equipped with regenerative technology— what we call “regen.” The regen slows the bus by capturing the energy back from the spinning wheels. Letting the regen provide primary braking force is a key strategy for extending the range. This is a change for operators who are used to driving on diesel buses. Our training and operations team are actively coaching operators on the impact driving style has on vehicle range. Our team are out on the route to help increase efficient driving behavior.

What’s important to note is that we have anticipated these range shortages, and have built processes to protect the transit service. Making sure that a bus arrives every 10 minutes on the Red Line is paramount for our operations team. We have buses at the garage on charge to replace buses that may become depleted. Adopting advanced technology is a learning curve for any organization. We have built buffers into our operating plan.

While the colder weather does pose challenges, we have a strong operating plan.

[thomas201]

Read Bob M.'s "Tesla Battery Range in Sub-Zero and Snowy Conditions" on the Teslarati web site. If you have to do everything wrong, no shore power to preheat when cold with snow on the road look for a 57% reduction in range. His average was more like 40%. Google it for yourself. It kills ICE cars too, but gas stations are more available. https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-battery-range-sub-zero-snowy-conditions/

[Groover]

Tesla has a proven track record of batteries going over 300,000 miles with less than 10% degradation which still leaves them with a longer range than anything else on the road. Even though that is over 20 years for the average driver Tesla is still shooting for over a million miles and may already be there. Unfortunately, it is going to take several years to prove that.

From what I have heard other brands are not doing so well. My son's Leaf has lost about 30% with only 50,000 miles on it. The new Leafs have a totally different battery and will probably do better but not as well as a Tesla.

[time2roll]

philh wrote:
One HUGE glaring error in the article, they did not include the cost of battery replacement.

I think the assumption would be to never replace the battery same as most people will never replace the ICE. Either way it typically cost more than the vehicle is worth at that point so you sell for what you can get.

Tesla battery is expected to be still in service at 200,000 miles and not many even drive an ICE that far. You might be the exception but that is not the point.

I drove a Chevy Sprint 240,000 (sold) and my F150 just hit 200,000 (still have). If the 5.4 motor burns up I doubt I would replace it but maybe.

[philh]

pianotuna wrote:

philh wrote:

Please cite your source for this data

Hi Phil,

I am unable to find the link--it was some months ago.

However I did find this:

https://www.2degreesinstitute.org/reports/comparing_fuel_and_maintenance_costs_of_electric_and_gas_p...

{sigh}
Liars
**** Liars
Statisticians

One HUGE glaring error in the article, they did not include the cost of battery replacement.

Their annual maintenance expense is comparing an average ICE (think older vehicles) to newer BEV vehicles, bad comparison.

My daily drive is 12 years old, and I have put very little into maintenance. One set of brakes, oil changes, and fuel. Everything else, is comparable to BEV.

[time2roll]

msmith1.wa wrote:
So what it looks like to me is the battery pack in the busses is under sized for what they want it do.

Yes I believe BYD installs at least two different battery sizes. City may have tried to save a few $$.

[msmith1_wa]

I own a Chevrolet Bolt EV. What I have learned since owning it is that the battery temperature needs to be maintained somewhere around 70 degrees. So when it is cold ou the battery needs to be warmed. The colder it is the more energy it takes to keep the battery warm. Also heating the passenger compartment takes a lot of energy from the battery, more than AC in the summer.

So what it looks like to me is the battery pack in the busses is under sized for what they want it do.

[pianotuna]

philh wrote:

Please cite your source for this data

Hi Phil,

I am unable to find the link--it was some months ago.

However I did find this:

https://www.2degreesinstitute.org/reports/comparing_fuel_and_maintenance_costs_of_electric_and_gas_p...

[philh]

pianotuna wrote:
I was comparing new to new. My Hyundai Elantra (2013), which I enjoy, had a 5 year warranty. In order to keep that, I had to follow their recommended service. It was between 700 and 1000 per year to do so.

That sounds like a HORRIBLE "deal".
5 vehicles since 2007... still own the '07. Other than oil and filter changes, not one single repair that wouldn't also be present on BEV vehicle. Tires (granted the Charger and Chally eat more rubber than a BEV), brakes, couple of chassis or electrical repairs, which a BEV could also have.

[philh]

pianotuna wrote:

Over a 5 year period a Bev costs 40% less than an Ice, including the purchase price. This estimate is based on 'cradle to grave' data.

Please cite your source for this data

[pianotuna]

I was comparing new to new. My Hyundai Elantra (2013), which I enjoy, had a 5 year warranty. In order to keep that, I had to follow their recommended service. It was between 700 and 1000 per year to do so. I bought at a reduced price as it was a demo.

Expensive? Well, not when they had to replace the short block.

Now that I'm off warranty it will not get much more than oil changes, tires, brakes, and windshield wipers.

[gbopp]

DutchmenSport wrote:
I'm a 100% skeptic that true electric vehicles, especially trucks for towing RV trailers and such, will ever work successfully.

That's probably what they said when Henry Ford started selling the Model T.

[fj12ryder]

I read about this extensive service on ICE vehicles, and honestly I keep my vehicles for 8-10 years and my money spent isn't that much. As far as a 5-year period, pshaw. I've had my cheapo Hyundai for 2 years so far and spent a grand total of $5 for a tail light bulb, air filters, oil filters, and oil. Wait a minute, I did buy two windshield wipers.

I bought it used with 24,000 miles, and paid less than $9500. It now has 36,000 miles, gets around 30 mpg. I can easily see it going another 3 years with about the same cost. Although I may need brakes and tires in a couple years.

So I should have been able to get an EV for around $5000?

[pianotuna]

philh wrote:
Third factor, an electric vehicle costs more to produce, a lot more. Govt subsidies have masked it until now. That is changing, and customers are voting with their pocket book.

Hi Phil,

Over a 5 year period a Bev costs 40% less than an Ice, including the purchase price. This estimate is based on 'cradle to grave' data.

The Ice dealers make a lot of money from service--and it not an accident that specialized tools are required.

Bev service requirements are much lower--essentially tires and items such as windshield wipers. Because of regenerative braking, pads and rotors may last a lot lover. Life span of the entire vehicle most likely will be far longer.

When we get to electric trucks it may be that the initial price is lower than an ice.

[wildtoad]

Batteries in all flavors hate cold. People hate cold. Vehicles with only batteries with need to provide both momentum and heat in the winter cooling in the summer. I’m sure at some point the technology will provide a solution. Putting overhead power lines on all interstate hiway, secondary roads seems a bit radical and ugly. Electric only vehicles are good in some situations. A hybrid where a power source (propane, hydrogen, ... ) can provide sufficient power the vehicle and recharge the batteries at the same time may be useful.