Increasing Tongue Weight on Nissan NV3500 (or in general)

CatonsvilleFred wrote:
Really good insight. I've talked to some other folks via PM and other forums who believe that the weight limit is without a WD hitch and that a WD hitch effectively increases it; though no one knows by exactly how much.

Since Nissan recommends a WDH when towing over 5000#, I'm guessing the 870# tongue weight assumes the use of a WDH.

The table below gives the percentage increase reflected in Ford's Weight Carrying versus Weight Distributing numbers for 2014.

The Navigator L gains the least, the Explorer gains the most, and all of the F-series trucks are in between. The median value is 200%.
Based on these numbers, I find it very difficult to establish any correlation between TV parameters and gain in allowable tongue weight.

Column 1 = Max tongue weight for "weight carrying"
Column 2 = Max tongue weight for "weight distributing"

600 _870 145% Navigator L
600 _890 148% Expedition EL
600 _920 153% Expedition/Navigator
850 1400 165% F-250/350 SRW 6.7
850 1500 176% F-350 DRW 6.2
500 1000 200% E-Series Van/Wagon
600 1250 208% F-250/350 SRW
850 1850 218% F-350 DRW 6.7
200 _450 225% Flex/MKT
500 1130 226% F-150
200 _500 250% Explorer

Since this is the same hitch they're putting on the cargo van and they list the cargo van at a 950 lb. tongue, I'm going to assume that the hitch is rated for at least this much as long as I get all other axles/ratios/gross weights in line. That will be more than enough for what we want to pull (an ultra-light bunk house).

I think it's entirely possible that the only reason the cargo van and passenger van have different tongue weights is because they have different "towing capacity" and the tongue weight simply is taken as 10% of towing capacity.
I think your assumption about the receiver is a safe assumption.

Ron

Ron Gratz wrote:
It might just be coincidence, but ---

The SAE J2807 test standard defines procedures and requirements to determine Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR) and calculate corresponding Trailer Weight Rating (TWR) for any tow-vehicle.

The testing protocol specifies:

4.4.2.4 Trailer Tongue Weight (Conventional Trailers)

Ballast should be applied to the trailer in a distributed manner such that the trailer tongue weight is 10% of total trailer weight ±0.5%, or ±5 kg (11 lb), whichever is greater, at a nominally level attitude as described in 4.4.2.8. This is intended to provide a nominal longitudinal center of gravity (cg) position of the ballasted trailer that is 10% (of the effective tongue length) forward of the trailer axle(s) centerline.

Therefore, it seems that a manufacturer who is claiming compliance with J2807 cannot specify an allowable tongue weight which exceeds 10% of the "Trailer Weight Rating" -- unless they do their testing at a trailer tongue weight which is greater than 10% of total trailer weight.

For several years, Ford has been specifying "Max. Tongue Weight" to be 10% of "Max. Trailer Capacity".
An example is in the chart at the bottom of page 25 of the 14RV & TRAILER TOWING GUIDE.

Jeep also defines "Max. Trailer Tongue Wt." as 10% of the "Max. Gross Trailer Wt."

IMO, it is possible that those manufacturers who specify maximum tongue weight as 10% of maximum trailer weight have not established a physical basis for limiting the tongue weight.
Rather, it seems that their 10% tongue weight limit simply might be a weight used in a test procedure which establishes a value Trailer Weight Rating.
I guess it could be possible that their vehicles are fitted with receivers which are certified for a combined load consisting of a longitudinal force equal to the max trailer weight and a vertical force equal to the max tongue weight.

Really good insight. I've talked to some other folks via PM and other forums who believe that the weight limit is without a WD hitch and that a WD hitch effectively increases it; though no one knows by exactly how much.

Since this is the same hitch they're putting on the cargo van and they list the cargo van at a 950 lb. tongue, I'm going to assume that the hitch is rated for at least this much as long as I get all other axles/ratios/gross weights in line. That will be more than enough for what we want to pull (an ultra-light bunk house).

Fred

CatonsvilleFred wrote:
2) The cargo version of this van with no seats can tow 9500 w/ a 950 lb. tongue rating... From talking with Nissan, it has the same receiver as the passenger version... Which means the receiver isn't the component creating the 870lb limit... and so if its not the receiver and its not the RAWR what is it?

It might just be coincidence, but ---

The SAE J2807 test standard defines procedures and requirements to determine Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR) and calculate corresponding Trailer Weight Rating (TWR) for any tow-vehicle.

The testing protocol specifies:

4.4.2.4 Trailer Tongue Weight (Conventional Trailers)

Ballast should be applied to the trailer in a distributed manner such that the trailer tongue weight is 10% of total trailer weight ±0.5%, or ±5 kg (11 lb), whichever is greater, at a nominally level attitude as described in 4.4.2.8. This is intended to provide a nominal longitudinal center of gravity (cg) position of the ballasted trailer that is 10% (of the effective tongue length) forward of the trailer axle(s) centerline.

Therefore, it seems that a manufacturer who is claiming compliance with J2807 cannot specify an allowable tongue weight which exceeds 10% of the "Trailer Weight Rating" -- unless they do their testing at a trailer tongue weight which is greater than 10% of total trailer weight.

For several years, Ford has been specifying "Max. Tongue Weight" to be 10% of "Max. Trailer Capacity".
An example is in the chart at the bottom of page 25 of the 14RV & TRAILER TOWING GUIDE.

Jeep also defines "Max. Trailer Tongue Wt." as 10% of the "Max. Gross Trailer Wt."

IMO, it is possible that those manufacturers who specify maximum tongue weight as 10% of maximum trailer weight have not established a physical basis for limiting the tongue weight.
Rather, it seems that their 10% tongue weight limit simply might be a weight used in a test procedure which establishes a value Trailer Weight Rating.
I guess it could be possible that their vehicles are fitted with receivers which are certified for a combined load consisting of a longitudinal force equal to the max trailer weight and a vertical force equal to the max tongue weight.

Ron

I really doubt that you are transferring the full rated weight of the bars in hitch weight. Those numbers are basically for reference, i.e. the 1500 lb bars can handle more weight than the 1000, etc. The only way you can know for sure how much weight you are transferring is to get actual axle weights from your van and trailer. (since trailer axle weight will increase with WD bars engaged)

A few years ago I helped set up a Ford F550 rescue truck towing a 7000 lb trailer with a 900 pound tongue weight. The truck was slightly over rear GAWR so we used a 750 lb WD hitch. We were only able to transfer about 300 pounds off the rear axle, which was just enough. IIRC about another 200 pounds went to the trailer axle. These numbers will vary with the distance between the hitch ball and both truck and trailer axles, and possibly other factors. The only way to know for sure is to weigh it.

I guess for the sake of clarity, I should elaborate a bit more on the Blue Ox 1000 lbs vs the 1500 lbs bars (in case it helps someone else).

I originally had the 1000 lb bars on there which from what the LazyDays guy told me would essentially be able to remove up to 1000 lbs of weight from the hitch and distribute it back to the trailer. All I know is took the thing to the CAT with the trailer fully loaded and my GCWR was like 16100. The NV 3500 has a GCWR of 16000 for reference. My tongue was 2100 which was waaaayyy over the 875 that the manual stated. I completely freaked out but what the LazyDays guy told me was that with the way the Blue Ox works, I had 1000 lb bars on so essentially I had 1100 tongue weight. Still over the 875. I could even tell it was too much - there was a dip in the rear wheel well and it just didn't feel right when towing. After talking with LazyDays they got me 1500 lbs bars which meant that my hitch would be 2100 - 1500 = 600 lbs on hitch if I had the bars on all the way (obviously you don't WANT the bars on all the way like this but just FYI). After this I tried with the chain on 8 and it was still too much sway, link 9 felt perfect, wheel wells are aligned, tows like a dream.

So best as I can figure, the 875 lbs in the instruction manual is still about all you want to put on the car but (at least with Blue Ox) you might need to do some calculating to take the WD into account.

That all bring said I would HIGHLY recommend the Blue Ox SwayPro with either 1000 lbs bars or if you are doing a trailer with maybe 7500 lbs GVWR or more the 1500 lb bars. NOTE I'm NOT an expert on this by any means, just what I can say from my research, discussions with LazyDays mechanics, Nissan mechanics and my own experience after towing like 5000 miles. PLEASE do your own research! Just leaving these notes as they may help someone who was completely lost with the specs like I was in January :)

ElementZero wrote:
So just one more question - is the tongue weight always 10% of the maximum towing capacity? I just ask because on the Passenger NV3500 the towing capacity is 8700 and the tongue weight capacity it 870 but on he NV3500 cargo I saw that the towing capacity is 9500 and the tongue capacity is 950. Just wondering for the sake of knowing.

Thanks for the insight!

The 10% is something that Nissan seems to be doing when making up numbers. This is not usual, most other manufacturers don't do it that way, tongue weight is more often derived from hitch at attachment point limitations.

That 800 pounds difference in towing capacity reflects the weight of the seats, trim and other passenger equipment in your van. This shows that the 8700/9500 is really for an empty van, and anything loaded in the van subtracts from towing capacity.

The real number to look at is GCWR - actual weight of your loaded vehicle.

In another class of vans, my E-350 passenger van has enough GCWR that it can tow 6000 pounds empty. It has enough GVWR that I can carry 3000 pounds. But I can't do both at the same time. If fully loaded, what I can tow drops to about 4500.

You need to work from GCWR for what you can tow, and GVWR vs your load to figure out tongue weights. I suspect you will find that your real world capacity to tow a RV with your family on a trip is a whole lot less than those maximum tow ratings.

Trip back from Michigan two weeks ago, had to work my way around the wreck of a midsize SUV and its flipped TT, sized at about maximum towing capacity, maybe a little more. I travel a lot and see too many of these wrecks.

CatonsvilleFred wrote:
The wording of this implies to me that Nissan *thinks* that a WD hitch effectively distributes the tongue weight in a manner that would allow for increased tongue weight over what would be allowed WITHOUT a WD system. This is contrary to what I have read here and in other threads - but we really need to get inside the heads of the folks at Nissan who put a tongue weight spec inside of the owner's manual without any obvious justification.

I fully agree with Nissan, and would challenge anyone here that states otherwise.

The max ultimate tongue weight should be determined by leftover payload (payload - cargo = available tongue). On a 3500 class van, this could be something ridiculous like 2000 lbs!

Whether or not you can achieve that max number, is dictated by your GAWRs and safe front-rear axle weight distribution. In other words, even if you're within rear GAWR, you don't want a 25/75 front to rear distribution.

This is where a WD hitch comes in. It won't change your max ultimate tongue weight, but rather, it alters HOW that tongue weight is loaded between the F and R axles.

Keep in mind, in the DOT world, there's no such thing as "tongue weight". It's not a legally enforced weight. All they care about is axle and tire limits. "Tongue weight", is a dummy consumer spec to help non-pro drivers stay within their axle limits.

ElementZero wrote:
Yeah the wording is not very descriptive. I wound up going to my towing dealer (LazyDays in Tampa FL) and talked with them about it. Basically the Nissan NV 3500 is a 1 ton truck and the 870 rating is basically for the truck WITHOUT a weight distribution hitch. Once you put the weight distribution hitch on you go by that and basically you'll run into a problem of hitting the 16,000 lbs weight limit for the truck and the trailer before you hit some issue with too much weight on the hitch (at least, I did).

I wound up buying a Keystone 3290bh travel trailer that has a 8000 GVWR. We now full time in the trailer and have for two months now. I have a Blue Ox SwayPro hitch that (originally) had 1000 lbs bars on it but it caused too much issue with weight so I had LazyDays switch them to 1500 lbs bars and it has worked great with no sway and no noticeable issues with the rear of the van dragging or anything (wheel wells are level). I put the chains on link 9 (I tried 8 and there was too much sway). My total weight (at least, last time I weighed it which included a half full fresh water tank (opps)) was 16100 lbs and the trailer at 8100 - so yeah, right on the limit (or a little bit over but meh) of what I /should/ be towing.

I have now towed this trailer 4853 miles - all the way from Orlando, Florida to Maine and back to Pennsylvania (where I currently am) - even in the mountains of Vermont it towed very solid (just make sure you put the tow mode on). I have not had to get any leafs installed in the springs nor have I had to get a transmission cooler - hottest I've ever seen the transmission get was about 1/3 full on the temp gauge. I have a Tekonsha P3 brake controller set at 8.3 and I haven't touched it since we left, been fine (When the trailer was empty from factory I had it set on 7 just FYI).

Let me know if you have any questions about it, hopefully that answers anything you might be worried about or if not I'd be glad to get more specific. :)

This is really helpful information and it is more or less what I expected... I wish instead of just throwing numbers up in the air, Nissan could have explained the reasoning behind those numbers in terms of especially how things would change if you removed some of the seats--which many people who are towing would be likely to do with the van.

It was lazy (or risk-averse) authorship in the owners manual to set everything in stone instead of actually explaining the limiting components.

Glad to hear your situation is working out. We're looking at a lighter trailer but I'm glad I've got room to work with the tongue weight.

I guess I should also mention that I removed one half of the back seat for the dog to have a place to sit as well as get some extra weight room. Those seats are ridiculously heavy although I never weighed one @.@.

Yeah the wording is not very descriptive. I wound up going to my towing dealer (LazyDays in Tampa FL) and talked with them about it. Basically the Nissan NV 3500 is a 1 ton truck and the 870 rating is basically for the truck WITHOUT a weight distribution hitch. Once you put the weight distribution hitch on you go by that and basically you'll run into a problem of hitting the 16,000 lbs weight limit for the truck and the trailer before you hit some issue with too much weight on the hitch (at least, I did).

I wound up buying a Keystone 3290bh travel trailer that has a 8000 GVWR. We now full time in the trailer and have for two months now. I have a Blue Ox SwayPro hitch that (originally) had 1000 lbs bars on it but it caused too much issue with weight so I had LazyDays switch them to 1500 lbs bars and it has worked great with no sway and no noticeable issues with the rear of the van dragging or anything (wheel wells are level). I put the chains on link 9 (I tried 8 and there was too much sway). My total weight (at least, last time I weighed it which included a half full fresh water tank (opps)) was 16100 lbs and the trailer at 8100 - so yeah, right on the limit (or a little bit over but meh) of what I /should/ be towing.

I have now towed this trailer 4853 miles - all the way from Orlando, Florida to Maine and back to Pennsylvania (where I currently am) - even in the mountains of Vermont it towed very solid (just make sure you put the tow mode on). I have not had to get any leafs installed in the springs nor have I had to get a transmission cooler - hottest I've ever seen the transmission get was about 1/3 full on the temp gauge. I have a Tekonsha P3 brake controller set at 8.3 and I haven't touched it since we left, been fine (When the trailer was empty from factory I had it set on 7 just FYI).

Let me know if you have any questions about it, hopefully that answers anything you might be worried about or if not I'd be glad to get more specific. :)