Sad about Livin Lite Camp Lite Products

[delosholly]

We have a great Livin Lite model 10.0 TC. We bought this product because of its non-wood construction and all aluminum exterior/framing, to include the roof.

Now since Thor bought-out LL, they have, in my opinion, diminished the quality of the product line. I just learned that all new TCs and other RVs made by LL will have TPO roofs over AZDEL, or something like that. So wood cabinet faces, TPO roofs, and fewer axles on some TT models...

While I understand that many RVs use TPO roofing, again in my opinion, an all aluminum roof is better and will last longer. The company has also stopped taking customizing requests. I just wonder what the future holds for the brand.

So Sad!!

[silversand]

Ticki wrote:
BTW , it's an old custom among roofers , who ever drops a hammer has to buy the beer

I've never heard that one. Great :B

Yes, our camper (indeed, the entire rig) gets stored in a climate-controlled facility every winter (except for one). The camper typically goes "inside" mid October to Nov 3rd (we usually have 1 to ~3 snow storms during this period) when the temps fall below appx 20F during daytime. The camper comes out roughly April 10th to May 4th (mostly mid April). So, the storage usually averages 5.5 months of the year. The camper sees appx 1~3 snowfalls and an ice storm maybe once every ~3 years in our driveway during spring.

The big unknown with TPO roofing membrane is: ...its ability to withstand very searing temperatures for its life expectancy (ie. heating days above 100 deg F). Life expectancy can be anywhere from 15 to 35 years for TPO membrane when installed to manufacturer's specification. So, I know that we have many Outfitter owners on this Forum, who store their TPO-roofed units out in the searing heat of the Southwest. I've never heard of any issues with the membrane. Any long-time TPO roof owners care to chime in?

[ticki2]

silversand wrote:


...our TPO roof was installed during manufacture of our truck camper back in Feb/March 2005 (for pick-up by us at the factory in May 2005), and after 11 years of use, it still looks like new (despite a small "dent" in the TPO due to my dropping of a 10 LB steel tree pruning head, from a height of ~21 feet, onto the roof).

Silver , you have mentioned in the past that you are fortunate enough to have climate controlled storage for your camper . Approximately how mush of it's 11 years has it spent in the elements ?

BTW , it's an old custom among roofers , who ever drops a hammer has to buy the beer .:B

[Steve_in_29]

wvabeer wrote:
I have had only one TPO roof, it was on a 2006 Gulfstream Cavalier FEMA trailer. I puchased it in 13 so the roof was 7 years old. I replaced that roof and there wasn't much dry 1/8" luan left so I replaced it with 7/16" OSB and 90 mil EPDM. The TPO I took off was of low quality ,thin almost looked like painted canvas. Thats is why I called it garbage. I hope its of way better quality now.

I would venture that wasn't TPO. Also the key to your comment was "FEMA trailer" as I am quite sure MANY corners were cut in the construction of what was considered a one-time use, disposable item.

TPO is an RV Industry standard and has been shown to be up to the task when the correct material has been properly installed.

[wvabeer]

silversand wrote:

wvabeer wrote:
I guess I got one of the good ones with the aluminum roof. That TPO is garbage.

...our TPO roof was installed during manufacture of our truck camper back in Feb/March 2005 (for pick-up by us at the factory in May 2005), and after 11 years of use, it still looks like new (despite a small "dent" in the TPO due to my dropping of a 10 LB steel tree pruning head, from a height of ~21 feet, onto the roof).

You should be aware of the changes in TPO formulation over the years, and the lapse of the patent (I believe in 2010), that allowed numerous manufacturers to jump into the TPO manufacturing fray.

Carlisle SynTec Inc., the manufacturer of our TPO membrane, changed their formulation in ~2007, to, "...enhanced ultraviolet and heat-aging stabilizers intended to improve long-term membrane performance." Then, after the expiry of patent, reportedly new manufacturers jumped into the TPO game with their own formulations...there was talk that a 2010 revision to ASTM D6878 (membrane heat testing, to increase from 240 F for 28 days, to 275 F for 56 days) by the TPO manufacturers, was supposed to be voted on by ASTM voting members....I don't know if this was ever adopted.

We have the pre formula change TPO chemistry from Carlisle SynTec, allowing for a less complicated lap sealant application (one part, not 2 part process).

Anyhow, it is up to the RV buyer to do their due diligence vis-à-vis the various RV components (shell, roof, windows, siding, frame, floor and appliances) when shopping for a new unit.

On edit: ....as an afterthought, many people get TPO confused with EPDM rubber roofing membranes...very, very different products and very different puncture, tear and UV-A & B resist.

I have had only one TPO roof, it was on a 2006 Gulfstream Cavalier FEMA trailer. I puchased it in 13 so the roof was 7 years old. I replaced that roof and there wasn't much dry 1/8" luan left so I replaced it with 7/16" OSB and 90 mil EPDM. The TPO I took off was of low quality ,thin almost looked like painted canvas. Thats is why I called it garbage. I hope its of way better quality now.

[silversand]

wvabeer wrote:
I guess I got one of the good ones with the aluminum roof. That TPO is garbage.

...our TPO roof was installed during manufacture of our truck camper back in Feb/March 2005 (for pick-up by us at the factory in May 2005), and after 11 years of use, it still looks like new (despite a small "dent" in the TPO due to my dropping of a 10 LB steel tree pruning head, from a height of ~21 feet, onto the roof).

You should be aware of the changes in TPO formulation over the years, and the lapse of the patent (I believe in 2010), that allowed numerous manufacturers to jump into the TPO manufacturing fray.

Carlisle SynTec Inc., the manufacturer of our TPO membrane, changed their formulation in ~2007, to, "...enhanced ultraviolet and heat-aging stabilizers intended to improve long-term membrane performance." Then, after the expiry of patent, reportedly new manufacturers jumped into the TPO game with their own formulations...there was talk that a 2010 revision to ASTM D6878 (membrane heat testing, to increase from 240 F for 28 days, to 275 F for 56 days) by the TPO manufacturers, was supposed to be voted on by ASTM voting members....I don't know if this was ever adopted.

We have the pre formula change TPO chemistry from Carlisle SynTec, allowing for a less complicated lap sealant application (one part, not 2 part process).

Anyhow, it is up to the RV buyer to do their due diligence vis-à-vis the various RV components (shell, roof, windows, siding, frame, floor and appliances) when shopping for a new unit.

On edit: ....as an afterthought, many people get TPO confused with EPDM rubber roofing membranes...very, very different products and very different puncture, tear and UV-A & B resist.

[Vinsil]

jimh425 wrote:

run100 wrote:
I expect to be paid fairly for the job I perform for my employer and I am willing to pay a fair price for products and services and extra for higher quality stuff.

I agree. Unfortunately, the markup you pay at one dealer versus another doesn't transfer to the people making the RV or automobile. As long as there is so much buffer in the RV/Auto prices, it makes sense to shop.

For RVs we are talking about 10s of thousands of dollars saved or even 100s of thousands for the big RVs. There are a few dealers that list the actual price in the ads, but not many.

I'd rather there be one price everywhere instead of playing a game, but as long as there is a game, many of us will play it.

Yup. Is not my fault the RV industry as well as the auto industry sets the pricing structure up as it is. When Saturn came out with their no haggle pricing my friend of mine bought one cause "he doesn't like to play the game". I told him good for him and the proceeded to barter over 5k off a new car (this was the mid 90's).

He felt he got a good deal, I knew I did.

I also saved 7k off my camper....and I'm sure for the deal I got some else walked in and paid sticker....I don't pay MSRP for most things, the value of the dollar is not strong and our state government thought I needed a pay cut by passing a minimum wage law pushing it to almost $15 bucks an hour. Economics....for some it is an impossible subject to get.

[jimh406]

run100 wrote:
I expect to be paid fairly for the job I perform for my employer and I am willing to pay a fair price for products and services and extra for higher quality stuff.

I agree. Unfortunately, the markup you pay at one dealer versus another doesn't transfer to the people making the RV or automobile. As long as there is so much buffer in the RV/Auto prices, it makes sense to shop.

For RVs we are talking about 10s of thousands of dollars saved or even 100s of thousands for the big RVs. There are a few dealers that list the actual price in the ads, but not many.

I'd rather there be one price everywhere instead of playing a game, but as long as there is a game, many of us will play it.

[lonegunman]

run100 wrote:
Oh my gosh! You are absolutely right! When I read and hear of consumers calling and/or emailing practically every rv dealer in the country trying to save another $100 on their new rv, it makes me wonder how any of them even stay in business. In fact, rv dealers come and go all the time in the Phoenix area. It's a difficult market.

What's sad, is how many consumers do not compare apples to apples and expect the same price on higher quality items, or ones with more elaborate options.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,There is no free lunch.

I shopped for my TC and saved THOUSANDS, not a hundred bucks. I'm not in the least bit ashamed to save THOUSANDS of dollars. Same goes for my truck, I paid about 20% under sticker for that little investment. All it took was a little effort and a couple of hours of research.

The only thing you prove by blindly paying full retail it that you are a terrible shopper. I worked to hard for my money to squander it needlessly. The average commission salesman is trying to cheat you out of every dollar possible, the smart consumer is working hard to keep as many of her/her dollars as possible.

When the quality or quantity of a product diminishes and the price remains the same it fools no one. The reason you get a 3qt "gallon" of ice cream is because there is a price point where people will decide to do without a product. People are not inclined to buy a $9 dollar gallon of ice cream. If you make a product you have to decide a price point and try and hit that mark. It works for ice cream, cars and truck campers.

I think you are comparing a few apples to oranges.

[Grit_dog]

Well don't get too choked up over it eh........unless you have an interest in the company.

[run100]

mkirsch wrote:
The buying public by and large doesn't notice cost cutting measures, and even if they do, are more accepting of them than price increases.

This is why you see things like 3-pint "half gallons" of ice cream, and 12oz boxes of cereal where they used to be full pounds. Costs went up big time, but the buying public DOES NOT CARE. You're a crooked money grubbing piece of garbage if you try to make any sort of profit at all.

Oh my gosh! You are absolutely right! When I read and hear of consumers calling and/or emailing practically every rv dealer in the country trying to save another $100 on their new rv, it makes me wonder how any of them even stay in business. In fact, rv dealers come and go all the time in the Phoenix area. It's a difficult market.

What's sad, is how many consumers do not compare apples to apples and expect the same price on higher quality items, or ones with more elaborate options. In addition, companies doing business in high priced areas like Phoenix, have much higher overhead to cover and shouldn't be expected to compete on price with a business in another state with significantly lower overhead.

Someone recently posted how they felt $1,000 profit on the sale of a new truck camper was plenty for the dealer. With that kind of margin, their lights would be out in no time.

All I know is, I expect to be paid fairly for the job I perform for my employer and I am willing to pay a fair price for products and services and extra for higher quality stuff. There is no free lunch.

[run100]

mkirsch wrote:
The buying public by and large doesn't notice cost cutting measures, and even if they do, are more accepting of them than price increases.

This is why you see things like 3-pint "half gallons" of ice cream, and 12oz boxes of cereal where they used to be full pounds. Costs went up big time, but the buying public DOES NOT CARE. You're a crooked money grubbing piece of garbage if you try to make any sort of profit at all.

Oh my gosh! You are absolutely right! When I read and hear of consumers calling and/or emailing practically every rv dealer in the country trying to save another $100 on their new rv, it makes me wonder how they even stay in business. In fact, rv dealers come and go all the time in the Phoenix area. It's a difficult market.

Someone recently posted how they felt $1,000 profit on the sale of a new truck camper was plenty for the dealer. With that kind of margin, their lights would be out in no time.

All I know is, I expect to be paid fairly for the job I perform for my employer and I am willing to pay a fair price for product and services and extra for higher quality stuff. There is no free lunch.

[rfporzio]

I am also a lucky owner of one of the first and now the only 5.7 built for the compact truck. Evidently Thor dropped the 5.7 line. I'm assuming due to sluggish sales. Long Live Aluminum!!

[mkirsch]

Consider that most likely, Livin' Lite had money troubles. If they were solvent and profitable, they never would have sold out to a large manufacturer like Thor.

Like pretty much every company in existence, Thor is in it to make money. They are not a charity. A division has to make a certain margin, or it has to be closed down. They are not a charity. They are not in it to break even.

To make their new division profitable, Thor has two choices:

1. Raise prices.
2. Reduce costs.

Decades of data from the business sector shows that #1 just doesn't work. People won't tolerate any more than small incremental price increases, no matter how legitimate, justified, or necessary.

The buying public by and large doesn't notice cost cutting measures, and even if they do, are more accepting of them than price increases.

This is why you see things like 3-pint "half gallons" of ice cream, and 12oz boxes of cereal where they used to be full pounds. Costs went up big time, but the buying public DOES NOT CARE. You're a crooked money grubbing piece of garbage if you try to make any sort of profit at all.

[trail-explorer]

Thor is the new Fleetwood of the RV industry.