Towing a small 5th wheel with a 1/2 ton truck

[redwingnc]

I am thinking of trading in my TT for a 5th wheel.... I have a Dodge Ram 1500, 4.7L V8 with towing package. The specs show that I should be able to tow 7300 lbs.

Do you see any problems with towing a 6300-6500 Lb. 5th wheel?

Thanks,

[Eng208]

redwingnc wrote:
Thanks for the response -- payload rating is 1670. I have taken into consideration the "stuff" I will put in the trailer, so I know I can't buy one more than about 6300-6400 lbs.....there will be just 2 people using it.

May have already been addressed, didn't have time to read through 5 pages of threads to check. Where are you getting the 1670 lb payload? I don't see what configuration truck you have, but I do know that figure is only about 100 lbs from my new 2500 diesel Ram payload. I highly doubt your 1500 is going to have that kind of payload unless it is a regular cab 2wd short bed. You have to weigh your truck, then subtract that from the GVWR to figure payload.

[goducks10]

There's only about a 200lb difference between the 5.7 Hemi Ram and the 3.0 diesel Ram. Just go to the Ram 1500 towing guide and pick your model. I choose the Big Horn and the 3.0 has 204lbs less payload. 1205lbs to 1409lbs.

[texasdiver]

camp-n-family wrote:

new Ram 1500 diesel, especially in the 2x4 versions

You can drop that from the "able" list. The payload is as low as 859lbs on some body styles up to a little over 1300lbs! From another post;

http://www.rv.net/forums/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/27531792.cfm

Well, OK. I didn't actually look that one up. I was just listing it as an example of an efficient engine. Why is the payload so small? Is it an especially heavy engine? Or are they just tossing it into especially lightweight trucks to juice the mileage?

That said, there are definitely Ford and GM half ton trucks available with payloads exceeding 2,000 lbs and that only promises to increase with the new lighter body trucks coming out, especially from Ford. A lot of people are going to be buying them and I expect a lot of people will be using them for towing.

[camp-n-family]

new Ram 1500 diesel, especially in the 2x4 versions

You can drop that from the "able" list. The payload is as low as 859lbs on some body styles up to a little over 1300lbs! From another post;

http://www.rv.net/forums/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/27531792.cfm

[texasdiver]

kzspree320 wrote:
I think what he was trying to say above was if you buy a small enough fiver that a half ton truck might marginally work, then you could get the heavier components and additional payload capacity of the 3/4 ton gas truck for very little extra. It was an oranges to oranges (gas to gas) comparison. Although I love my Cummins, you don't necessarily need a diesel if the fiver is small enough that it might to able to be pulled by a half ton truck. A lot of the 3/4 tons actually cost less than many maxed out half tons, but can carry much more payload. Good luck.

That makes sense to some extent. Although as someone shopping for a truck and camper package it seems there are really 3 logical "tiers" so to speak.

1/2 Ton. One can pair a reasonably we'll equipped 1/2 ton that has adequate engine and payload with a smaller lightweight 5th wheel. Although one would want to keep careful eye on the payload numbers. Some possible choices might be the Ford EcoBoost or new Ram 1500 diesel, especially in the 2x4 versions. The advantage is a more agile and economical daily driver. And considerable cost savings. Not everyone wants a giant camper, especially for infrequent or weekend type use. Although someone going down this route might better consider a bumper pull trailer. Something like a 30' airstream with an efficient 1/2 ton truck is a hard to beat combo.

3/4 or 1 ton SRW. A whole lot of people are driving around with medium weight 5th wheels towed by 3/4 ton or 1 ton SRW diesel trucks. Lots of argument about whether this is ideal. But fact of the matter is that the majority of 5th wheels in 2000-3000 lb pin weight and lower teens towing weight are being hauled around by 3/4 ton diesel SRW trucks. Or better yet F350/3500 SRW trucks. This seems to be the standard option and going this route will probably run $20-$30 grand more for truck, camper, heavier hitch, etc. This route leaves one with the biggest truck that can be reasonably be driven around as a daily driver for most folks. For me it would be the biggest truck I could possibly park in my garage which is one of my requirements.

1 ton Dually. This it the heavyweight option that will to most 5th wheels that should be towed and I suspect the way to go for those who are living the full time or near full time lifestyle with heavy trailers piled full of possessions. If one lives in the country and has limitless parking space this sort of truck is appealing. But for a lot of urban and suburbanites with limited parking space and need for daily driving in more congested environments this is a less appealing option. I simply have no way to park a DRW truck and so simply can't contemplate buying one.

Yes one can certainly buy a bigger truck than one needs. I've seen 1 ton diesels pulling little12' popups. And people say you can never have too much truck. But I think it is quite reasonable to shop for any of the above matched sets. If circumstances change one can always buy something different in the future.

[kzspree320]

I think what he was trying to say above was if you buy a small enough fiver that a half ton truck might marginally work, then you could get the heavier components and additional payload capacity of the 3/4 ton gas truck for very little extra. It was an oranges to oranges (gas to gas) comparison. Although I love my Cummins, you don't necessarily need a diesel if the fiver is small enough that it might to able to be pulled by a half ton truck. A lot of the 3/4 tons actually cost less than many maxed out half tons, but can carry much more payload. Good luck.

[texasdiver]

goducks10 wrote:

texasdiver wrote:
I think this is a reasonable topic and actually quite timely for me in that my wife and I want to upgrade from a popup to a 5th wheel. For us this means getting both a new camper and a new tow vehicle.

There are a growing number of 5th wheels that are advertised as 1/2 ton towable. The Light models from Open Range, for example. There is one we like, the BHS305 model that for which the specs are dry weight of 7900 lbs and dry pin weight of 1400 lbs.

At the same time, there are some 1/2 ton trucks at the upper end of the payload range that are clearly capable. For example, a 2014 F150 Ecoboost 4x4 Lariat with the crew cab and payload package has a max payload rating of 2300 lbs. And the new 2015 F150 is supposed to have increased payload ratings due to the lower body weight.

If I am in a position of buying both a new truck and 5th wheel I can probably save $10 grand on the truck by going with a 1/2 ton model over a big diesel. And I can probably save $10 grand or more by going with a smaller and lighter trailer. So it comes down to a question of whether it is worth it to us to go big and expensive when we really aren't full timers and the truck is going to be my daily commuting vehicle.

Now one obviously isn't going to want to pair any old 1/2 ton with any of the lighter 5th wheels. But if one is carefully shopping for both a truck and trailer at the same time I do think there are reasonable combinations that can be put together if one is mindful of payload.

You're on the right track. Only issue with 1/2 ton/5'er towing is you limit yourself to certain models. Buy going to a 3/4 ton you can really broaden the selection. Only draw back is the 3/4 ton will get less mpg while not towing. Depending on how much DD you do it may or may not break the bank. Towing wise both will get nearly the same mpg. To really do it right and be able to get in the better selection of 5'ers you need the HD F150. Which you will have to order. Even finding just a Max Tow version will be tough without ordering. The ride won't be much different than a 3/4 ton. Also it needs to come with the 3.73 gears. So mpg will be closer to the 3/4 ton. Not knowing you situation very well it's really hard to say what would work best.
1/2 tons and 5'ers are always a give and take situation. Usually not enough truck to do what you want. You usually have to get a smaller 5'er than what you may really like. Not always but more than likely.
I would suggest doing a build out with the HD F150 and a 3/4 ton. probably a lot closer than $10,000. In fact by doing a build out the HD F150 Super Crew 4x4 Lariat 6.5 bed came out to $47,065 and the same in a 3/4ton 4x4 Lariat Crew Cab 6.5 bed came out to 47,315. I added no options, I just put in Lariat for each. I'm guessing other options would be similarly priced.

I was talking about going diesel. Seems like the majority of folks who dive 100% into buying a dedicated 3/4 ton or 1 ton tow vehicle end up going with the diesel. By the time you are done spec'ing out a diesel F250 or F350 with a Lariat level trim it seems like you are more into the $60,000 range or at least $10 grand more than an equivalent-trim level F150. Same goes for RAM and GM trucks.

I suppose one could indeed get a 1-ton gas truck for 5th wheel towing. However if one is buying a truck for the purpose of towing a large 5th wheel it seems that the pretty universal recommendation is diesel for the low-end torque and performance in the mountains.

At this point we are just starting the shopping process but I will look long and hard at how much camper we really need and give serious thought to a smaller and lighter rig paired with a new 1/2 ton that is set up properly for towing and payload. Especially something like the Ecoboost which should perform better in the mountains than the traditional gas V8. But that is a lot different than thinking any random 10-year old 1/2 ton is ready to do the same.

[rhagfo]

NC Hauler wrote:
I would recommend one thing to anyone purchasing a 5er or TT, please use the units GVW, not it's "dry" or "empty" or "shipping" weight....it's not realistic...People will load up 5er with pots', pans, dishes, dry goods, clothes, outdoor chairs and on and on...It would probably be best to take worse case scenario and use the units GVW, whether you load to that or not...one won't know until they've weighed it, loaded....I would also take the units GVW to figure out how much pin weight one will put in the bed of their truck..(approx. 20% of the 5ers GVW, to get a ballpark idea)....Now, go from there...These "dry pin weight's' really don't do one much good unless you're going to tow the 5er the way it was shipped with nothing in it, but what it came with....If one decides to carry water with them, (some fresh water), weight can start adding up....

X2
X3
X4

No one TOWS DRY!!!!!

If you insist on starting at DRY Weight add 1,000 to 1,500# for STUFF. Otherwise you will never come close.

[NC_Hauler]

I would recommend one thing to anyone purchasing a 5er or TT, please use the units GVW, not it's "dry" or "empty" or "shipping" weight....it's not realistic...People will load up 5er with pots', pans, dishes, dry goods, clothes, outdoor chairs and on and on...It would probably be best to take worse case scenario and use the units GVW, whether you load to that or not...one won't know until they've weighed it, loaded....I would also take the units GVW to figure out how much pin weight one will put in the bed of their truck..(approx. 20% of the 5ers GVW, to get a ballpark idea)....Now, go from there...These "dry pin weight's' really don't do one much good unless you're going to tow the 5er the way it was shipped with nothing in it, but what it came with....If one decides to carry water with them, (some fresh water), weight can start adding up....

[goducks10]

texasdiver wrote:
I think this is a reasonable topic and actually quite timely for me in that my wife and I want to upgrade from a popup to a 5th wheel. For us this means getting both a new camper and a new tow vehicle.

There are a growing number of 5th wheels that are advertised as 1/2 ton towable. The Light models from Open Range, for example. There is one we like, the BHS305 model that for which the specs are dry weight of 7900 lbs and dry pin weight of 1400 lbs.

At the same time, there are some 1/2 ton trucks at the upper end of the payload range that are clearly capable. For example, a 2014 F150 Ecoboost 4x4 Lariat with the crew cab and payload package has a max payload rating of 2300 lbs. And the new 2015 F150 is supposed to have increased payload ratings due to the lower body weight.

If I am in a position of buying both a new truck and 5th wheel I can probably save $10 grand on the truck by going with a 1/2 ton model over a big diesel. And I can probably save $10 grand or more by going with a smaller and lighter trailer. So it comes down to a question of whether it is worth it to us to go big and expensive when we really aren't full timers and the truck is going to be my daily commuting vehicle.

Now one obviously isn't going to want to pair any old 1/2 ton with any of the lighter 5th wheels. But if one is carefully shopping for both a truck and trailer at the same time I do think there are reasonable combinations that can be put together if one is mindful of payload.

You're on the right track. Only issue with 1/2 ton/5'er towing is you limit yourself to certain models. Buy going to a 3/4 ton you can really broaden the selection. Only draw back is the 3/4 ton will get less mpg while not towing. Depending on how much DD you do it may or may not break the bank. Towing wise both will get nearly the same mpg. To really do it right and be able to get in the better selection of 5'ers you need the HD F150. Which you will have to order. Even finding just a Max Tow version will be tough without ordering. The ride won't be much different than a 3/4 ton. Also it needs to come with the 3.73 gears. So mpg will be closer to the 3/4 ton. Not knowing you situation very well it's really hard to say what would work best.
1/2 tons and 5'ers are always a give and take situation. Usually not enough truck to do what you want. You usually have to get a smaller 5'er than what you may really like. Not always but more than likely.
I would suggest doing a build out with the HD F150 and a 3/4 ton. probably a lot closer than $10,000. In fact by doing a build out the HD F150 Super Crew 4x4 Lariat 6.5 bed came out to $47,065 and the same in a 3/4ton 4x4 Lariat Crew Cab 6.5 bed came out to 47,315. I added no options, I just put in Lariat for each. I'm guessing other options would be similarly priced.

[texasdiver]

I think this is a reasonable topic and actually quite timely for me in that my wife and I want to upgrade from a popup to a 5th wheel. For us this means getting both a new camper and a new tow vehicle.

There are a growing number of 5th wheels that are advertised as 1/2 ton towable. The Light models from Open Range, for example. There is one we like, the BHS305 model that for which the specs are dry weight of 7900 lbs and dry pin weight of 1400 lbs.

At the same time, there are some 1/2 ton trucks at the upper end of the payload range that are clearly capable. For example, a 2014 F150 Ecoboost 4x4 Lariat with the crew cab and payload package has a max payload rating of 2300 lbs. And the new 2015 F150 is supposed to have increased payload ratings due to the lower body weight.

If I am in a position of buying both a new truck and 5th wheel I can probably save $10 grand on the truck by going with a 1/2 ton model over a big diesel. And I can probably save $10 grand or more by going with a smaller and lighter trailer. So it comes down to a question of whether it is worth it to us to go big and expensive when we really aren't full timers and the truck is going to be my daily commuting vehicle.

Now one obviously isn't going to want to pair any old 1/2 ton with any of the lighter 5th wheels. But if one is carefully shopping for both a truck and trailer at the same time I do think there are reasonable combinations that can be put together if one is mindful of payload.

[NC_Hauler]

...and all that was based on DRY weight, which is useless, as you implied....To the OP, as stated above, to an extent...use the GVW of a 5er you're looking at and take 20% of that weight and that'll give you a ballpark of what you might put in the bed of your truck as far as pinweight goes.....(payload get's eaten up fast)..

[APT]

Skip the Ram web site for specs. I doubt you have a base model work truck. Look at your truck for this sticker, as equipped. Or weight it.



Dry pin weight is the amount of weight that your truck's suspension has to support. It connects to a receiver that mounts in your truck bed such as this:

. The weight is very close to centered on the truck's rear axle. The receivers tend to weigh 150-250 pounds, again, centered weight on the rear axle.

Dry weight spec is just that, as the trailer is shipped plus options. Some options are mandatory and not included in the spec. My RV was shipped 320 pounds heaver than the MFR rating. Then you add stuff. Food, clothes, cooking supplies, towels, toys, spare parts, tools, etc. Anything added in front of the RV axles adds weight (non 1:1 though) to your truck's suspension. I estimate if you add 1000 pounds of stuff, camping gear, etc, then at least 300 pounds will be added to the truck's suspension. So, that's 1000+ pounds dry, plus 200 for receiver, plus 300 for % of added stuff. Oh my, 1500 pounds already.

If you insist on a 5er, how about that Scamp 19?

[kzspree320]

redwingnc wrote:
Please explain dry pin weight -- is that the hitch in the truck?

Here are the specs from the Ram website for my vehicle:

TIRES P265/70R17
ENG 4.7L V8
TRANS TYPE A5
TRANS 545RFE (DGQ) SPD AUTO
AXLE (it lists both 3.55 & 3.92...don't know what mine is)
GVWR 6700
PAYLOAD 1670
BASE WT 5008...Front 2858....Rear 2150
GAWR Front 3700.....Rear 3900
GCWR 12,500
MAX TRAILER 7300

Tell me if my thinking is incorrect:

The 5er I'm looking at is just over 6100 lbs dry; assume 1000 lbs of "stuff", so 7100 lbs. Assuming I stay within the payload with the hitch & other "stuff", + 2 people, am I not within the 7300 max trailer and the 12,500 GCWR?

This is the lightest 5er I can find...if it not a safe situation, I guess I will have to go back to looking at another TT.

Thanks so much for your help...like I said, this is my first attempt at a 5er, and I don't want to start off with a bad move:-)

Let's not just look at tow rating. The main limiting factor for half tons is payload so let's work that math.

You state your trucks payload is 1,670 lbs. If you assume the fifth wheel hitch itself and all install hardware weigh about 200 lbs, then we are down to 1,470 lbs. As a general rule of thumb, fifth wheels have pin weights that are about 20% of loaded weight. Your loaded weight is 7,100, so 20% is about 1,420 lbs. You are now down to about 50 lbs for everything you want to put in the truck plus all people. If your people plus stuff weigh 500 lbs, then you are 450 lbs over GVWR.

My truck loaded ready to camp with fiver (2500 Dodge CTD) is about 200# more than its GVWR, but it's also about 300-400# less than its RAWR. Without working the numbers its hard to know, but I suspect you will be over the RAWR of your truck (given that your rear axle rating is only 200# more than your front axle rating).

You state your RAWR is 3,900 lbs. Subtract the hitch weight 200 and pin weight 1,420 and you have about 2,300 lbs left. Take half of weight of passengers and cargo (if you assume 500 lbs then that's about 250 lbs). Subtract that and you are about 2,050 lbs. Go to the truck scales with your truck and see what the rear axle weight is without any of this stuff listed. Is it less than 2,050#? If its 2,500# empty, then your rear axle weight when loaded should be about 450# more than RAWR. You just have to weigh it and do the math with actual weights.

While I don't mind being several hundred lbs more than the trucks GVWR, I would never exceed the RAWR. Often the RAWR limiting factor is the trucks tires. Exceeding the axle weight ratings is a real safety concern.

I hope this helps. Good luck.

[Wes_Tausend]

...

You might get a different attitude on a 1/2 ton truck forum. This may not be the best forum to ask this. Many of the folks that post here regularily, have purposely oversized trucks and tend to give a firmly biased opinion that everyone should have such a truck. They will be the first to insist, "You cannot have too much truck". Sorta true in a limited sense. That said, I am just as guilty by owning a larger 3/4 ton truck.

But I know that a smaller 1/2 ton truck can work just as well if the transmission cooler and tires are up to it. The engines are often the same, and they don't count anyway until one considers, "How fa$t do you want to go?" That is an old racers adage, but it also applys to towing performance. You cannot have too much engine if all it does is tow, but you sure can have too much engine as a daily driver. Unless you own OPEC.

I think you would find the rig acceptable, primarily since you seem to already have realistic expectations. The weight almost has nothing to do with it here since it is not really a safety problem to exceed suggested weight guidelines within reason (+500# load capacity, +1500# GCWR). It is heartily recommended to stay within tire ratings by upgrading rear tires as some other have done. Tires are pretty much the lone safety issue. The rest is merely increased wear on smaller driveline components.

TRIVIA:
My buddy had a 20 foot low-profile 5vr that he pulled with a 1/2 ton F-150 Ford with a smog '80's 302 cubic inch V-8 in it. It worked great for me when I borrowed it to go to Medora, but he became upset when it overheated climbing in the Black Hills. The 5vr was made for a mid-size Dodge Dakota, mind you.

So my buddy bought an F-250 with the V-10 in it. I once followed him to a campsite with my wifes Impala, and had to gas it to keep up in stop-and-go traffic. It literally was hard to tell the camper was even hooked up to his oversize truck.

Then he bought an older, 8K dry, TALL 32+ foot 5vr. He couldn't believe the severe loss in performance, and he even looked to make sure he didn't have stuck trailer brakes. It wasn't the weight or brakes, but the wind. Now it wouldn't have mattered much if he'd bought a F-350, or F-450, it still would tow the same. Maybe worse uphill, since both bigger trucks themselves weigh more with the same power (sometimes less power w/similar de-rated V-10 engine).

I thought his rig was just fine, still snappy actually. Towing is different than running empty, and it can be hard to get used to. Some guys never get over it. Before I retired, I worked for a railroad, and there is nothing more ponderous, or slower on land, than 18k HP towing a load that weighs 25+ times the 600 ton tow vehicle. I think it has permanently biased me to accept slow towing.

Wes
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