What's wrong with too much tongue weight?

[flintsters]

I understand that too little tongue weight will lead to sway and that the target is between 10-15%, but are there any consequences to having more than that? I don't have concerns with my payload or WDH since I purposely purchased more than I'd need to keep myself well within the safe zone. I guess I'm wondering if it's best to air on the side of too much rather than too little while we're traveling and don't have access to scales.

[myredracer]

flintsters wrote:
When I hook up the TT the front of my truck fenders does not change whether WDH is engaged or not.

That doesn't seem right. Is that with the TT coupler sitting on the ball? Fender height measurement is with a TT unhooked vs. sitting on the ball. I'm running close to 100% weight restoration on the steer axle on our '09 F250 and am about 1/4" from unloaded fender height and IIRC, front rises about an inch before the WDH is engaged. I played around with various settings overall and found this better for sway. Newer trucks specify less weight restoration (50%?) but I *think* it is okay to go higher if wanted.

What frame is on the Jay Feather? Is it a Norco BAL like other Jayco models? Looks like it from photos. The BAL frame is completely different than Lippert frames in that they use a special type of rivet instead of welding. I've read in the past that there are some concerns about too high TW and/or over-tightening a WDH as it is hard on the BAL A-frame to main frame connection.

flintsters wrote:
I am still trying to figure out the WDH, however, because it seems like I am getting more movement back there then I feel like I should. Seems like when I get up around 55-60 it feels like a little sway and also happens a fair amount with passing trucks.

I asked the same question about TW above 15% a few years ago and got the same answer - no problem as long as you aren't exceeding any max. ratings, the WDH rating is correct and WDH can be properly adjusted. Our TT was just under 15% TW the last time I weighed it. I'd rather be on the high side of average rather than under.

You need to go to a scale to get all your weights (3 pass method).*If* you happened to be at the max. 7500 lbs on the TT GVW, the 1200 lb rated spring bars/WDH would mean max TW would be 16%. I think being that high is pretty uncommon, especially on an ultralite TT. Note that depending on holding tank location, towing with one or more full tanks can affect TW and towing/sway.

If your question is related to sway and how the TT feels going down the road, there are other things that can contribute. Air pressure is one and should run max sidewall psi on the TT tires. Higher psi on the truck tires when towing can help. I run 80 psi on the rear and 75 on the front. TT should be level when hooked up to slightly nose down. I found that slightly nose down was better and had to get a ball with 1" rise to accomplish that.

Once you have done all the "right stuff", you should be able to tow all day long on the interstate and have negligible to zero sway. To go a step further, shocks on the TT and better shocks on the TV can make a dramatic improvement. Took me a while to get everything all sorted out (including Bilsteins on truck and shocks on trailer) and now have no sway and also excellent handling on twisty/bouncy secondary highways.

A photo of truck and trailer hooked up and from a distance and another one of the WDH setup close up might help.

[JBarca]

A point to bring to the discussion.

It has been mentioned that a semi trailer or a 5th wheel tows better than a conventional bumper pull trailer because they have high tongue weight. While both setups do have high TW or pin weight in this case, TW is not the largest factor involved on why those setups tow more stable.

Think about how those setups are made?

A gooseneck trailer is in this same category. And yes, in those 3 examples the words, trailer sway is about totally eliminated. But it is not the fact they have high TW.

A larger factor then the TW is the difference of the rear overhang of the tow ball behind the rear axle of the truck. On a semi, gooseneck or a 5th wheel, the distance from the truck rear axle to the trailer pivot point is very small. On a conventional TT using a bumper pull hitch, the rear overhang is very large. 50 to 65" is common.

Look here, this will help show the effect if you have ever seen the PullRite travel trailer hitch. http://www.pullrite.com/products/pullrite-worry-free-travel-trailer-towing

Here are some pics of from one of my very good friends Less Adams. He used this for a while on his F250 and his TT.




The pivot point is approx 6 to 8" behind the rear axle of the truck. Not 65" behind it if he was using a standard WD hitch.

The weight that the truck is holding from the TT is actually less when using the PullRite then a conventional WD hitch. This is due to the long tongue addition on the trailer. The actual TT tongue weight has not increased very much other then the raw weight of the Pullrite hitch that is connected to the ball coupler. Yet the camper tows with no sway. It is not the fact of high TW, it is the lack of rear overhang.

Think about it, TW has nothing to do with this situation when using a PullRite hitch. The same camper TW only changed a little but the truck rear overhang reduced a lot.

For a conventional TT, the PullRite is the best no sway hitch as it mechanically eliminates the root cause of the problem. Large rear overhang. Even this style trailer hitch needs proper TW to operate correctly, but it does not need high TW.

Hope this helps

John

[gmw_photos]

Just a note I forgot to include, my travel trailer in the above picture is around 580-600 tongue. The horse trailer is about 140 pounds more than that. With the horse trailer I have to crank the blue ox WD hitch tighter.
Both handle very well. Lots of miles with both.

As an aside comment, my experience the Frontier is a very much under-rated little truck. The 4.0L V6 makes good torque from 2800 to it's peak at 3900 and will pull a six percent grade, on cruise control at 60 mph, 3200 rpm. I tow in fourth gear ( six speed manual ). 150K miles, approx 50K miles towing. Original clutch.

No doubt the pay-low/poe-poe are about to go ballistic on me here, but that's ok. I know what works out here in the real world.

Back to the original point of the thread, I like to set up to around 12 to 15% tongue. If I had a trailer that was significantly higher than that, I'd move some weight to a position over the axles. Not behind the axles, but over the axles. Set up that way with a correctly adjust WD hitch, my experiences have been good.
I feel "too much" TW can cause the rear suspension of the truck to "bounce" too much as it is forced to stroke thru it's travel by the excessive weight.

[valhalla360]

gmw photos wrote:
which is why horse/stock trailers pull so nicely. The axles are kicked much further back compared to a travel trailer

The difference with your picture, is
- The TT center of gravity is likely close to the center of the main box.
- The center of gravity on the horse trailer with a couple of horses in the trailer is probably 2/3 of the way back.

So to get similar tongue weights, you need to move the wheels back on the horse trailer.

In general terms as long as you stay within the weight limits, more weight on the tongue is better. As mentioned this is why 5th wheels with 20-25% pin weight tow so nicely and semis push that to around 50% with the wheels all the way to the back. Of course, this is balanced with 5th wheels and semis needing much beefier suspensions to pull the same size trailer.

But taken to an extreme, there may be parts that normally aren't considered that could fail. Say you got a big commercial truck and hitch that could handle a 2500lb tongue weight and then shifted everything forward in your trailer to make that happen...I would be worried that the A-frame may not have been designed to handle that kind of load.

[centerline]

both too heavy and too light can cause sway issues, depending on the length of the trailer, the weight, and the amount of overhang past the trailer axle, and the wheelbase and weight of the tow vehicle.
with an otherwise matched trailer and tow vehicle, normally, too little tongue weight will cause sway issues..
too much tongue weight can cause severe control issues when braking, because the amount of weight pushing down on the bumper behind the rear wheels, takes weight off of the steer axle.. this can cause the front wheels to lock up before enough braking force is applied to slow the vehicle down.. as well as steering issues when accelerating...

anyone who has used a trailer in their younger years to haul hay from the field to the barn has probably experienced where the heavy tongue load causes the front wheels to be so light, you cant even get the front of the pickup to turn very sharp, because they just slide. this may be in the extreme, but there is no real indicator that there is a dangerous amount of tongue load until you experience the effects, and traveling down the road at 50+ mph is NOT the time you want to experience them.

[ken56]

I have a GMC 2500, my trailer is 10k gvwr and I am close to that for camping. Trailer came with cheapie Trailer King tires that I put about 3k miles on them camping, longest trip one way 700 miles. Trailer had what I call a wiggle and I could feel it when the big trucks passed me and when the wind blew a little bit. Changed the tires to the Goodyear Endurance on the trailer and I don't feel that any more. Both had an E rating but big difference in sidewall stability.

Next thing is how heavy duty are the shackles and equlizer on the trailer suspension? If you have the plastic bushings could they be worn out? The suspension will get a little loose when they do. Think about upgrading to a wet bolt and bronze bushings type. Made a noticable difference in my last trailer when I did it to that one. Plastic/nylon bushings don't take long to wear out and get sloppy.

[gmw_photos]

which is why horse/stock trailers pull so nicely. The axles are kicked much further back compared to a travel trailer

[Huntindog]

colliehauler wrote:
You will never see a semi with the axles in the middle of a trailer. Most of the weight is over the drive axle, physics. This allows the best handling and stability. In the world of TT this is not always feasible it's a compromise between handling and not overloading the tow vehicle. That's the same reason 5th wheels will always handle better then a TT. More tongue weight will always produce better handling up to the point the tow vehicle is overloaded then it has a negative effect. The laws of physics don't change because you want it to.

X2 We have a winner!

There are some good reasons behind the 10-15% rule. 10% is the minimum for a safe tow.
15% is the limit for most equipment. TV, hitch,TT frame etc.

If your equipment is up to it, then there is no problem with exceeding 15%.

[colliehauler]

You will never see a semi with the axles in the middle of a trailer. Most of the weight is over the drive axle, physics. This allows the best handling and stability. In the world of TT this is not always feasible it's a compromise between handling and not overloading the tow vehicle. That's the same reason 5th wheels will always handle better then a TT. More tongue weight will always produce better handling up to the point the tow vehicle is overloaded then it has a negative effect. The laws of physics don't change because you want it to.

[rbpru]

It is the old story, numbers do not lie. I have made many guesses, estimates and calculation on tongue weight; only to be surprised by the CAT scales.

Load your rig for the road including dogs, cats and camp gear etc. Weigh the TV and TT. Disconnect the TT and re-weigh the TV. The difference in the combined TV axel weights is the load your TV is seeing when you add the TT.

Now you have the unload truck axel weights, the loaded truck axel weights and the trailer axel weight.

You know that with the WD hitch installed, 1. How much weight was added to the TV axles. 2. The axle weight of the TT.

So, if you add the TT axel weight plus the TV weight gain and divide it into the TV weight gain. It tells you the percentage of load that the WD hitch is transferring to the TV.

It sounds more complicated than it really is and they are the real numbers.

As for sway issues a host of reasons come to mind; suspension, tire pressure, TT nose up or nose down, to name a few.

Good Luck

[Huntindog]

As a general rule: TW is your friend. The more the merrier.... So long as the components carrying the load are within their limits.

I am over 15% a lot. I want to be. My equipment can handle it, so I have that luxury.
The reason I like a lot of TW is that a TT is different than many other types of trailers.
Weights can shift around quite a bit in the course of a trip. Water leaves the fresh tank and ends up in the black/grey tanks. Propane gets consumed and that weight disappears. Clothes get dirty an leave the closets/drawers and end up elsewhere. food gets consumed, and many other items can move around. So someone that is trying to cut it close on TW with 10-11% due to TV limitations can easily find themselves with too little TW.

My present TT is an extreme example. It has FOUR 42 gallon waste tanks. I also carry a 5 cubic foot freezer on the rear rack full of food. That is on top of all of the usual stuff that can move around.

I have a stout TV (2011 Silverado CC D/A dually, so I don't sweat the little stuff. My rig is solid as a rock... always.

[Lantley]

The capability of the TV has a lot to do with it.
An F-250 might not fair so well with a 1800# TW trailer. However a F-350 dually can handle the heavy TW.
Assuming the weight is not excessive enough to cause the trailer to self destruct. Than the tow vehicle will determine when the weight is excessive for a given combo.

[dodge_guy]

I had too much in my current trailer. I was at 1500 lbs and I had stability issues. Moved some stuff around and got that down to 1200 and it is a very well setup combo. My trailer is 9200lb loaded.

Once it’s weighed you can get the tongue weight down to 12% which is best for towing.

[Lwiddis]

I second Ken's question: "Do you know the weight rating of the receiver on your tow vehicle?" I know my Tahoe is 600/1,000. There is a downside to an overloaded receiver of course.