Forum Discussion

Explorer II

Jul 23, 2014

Follow-up to our troubles at Freedom Shores (Isla Aguada)

****** Update October 16, 2014: Great news: William from the Freedom Shores RV park contacted us recently and agreed to cover our damages! Thanks Freedom Shores!
******

Not sure why the original topic is closed: I emailed the RV.net webmaster and he asked me to start a new topic.

Here is the original topic regarding our electrical troubles at Freedom Shores (Isla Aguada) earlier this year and the Freedom Shores management's reply in the same topic:
http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/27768876.cfm

Since I didn't have a chance to reply before the topic was closed, I wanted to provide some answers here:

1) To those who took offense to my statement; "Interesting business ethics down in Mexico! "; I'm sorry. I didn't express myself very clearly.
There are crooks everywhere; otherwise there wouldn't be as many lawyers around. What I meant with my statement is that, if this happens in a U.S. campground, you have a recourse as a customer to contact the B.B.B., or in the worst case, get yourself a lawyer to get compensation from the RV park if they are found liable.
As far as I knew, there is no BBB down in Mexico and customers are much less protected than they are in Europe or in the U.S., hence my statement. Another poster on the original topic has made me aware of the Mexican consumer protection agency 'PROFECO'. I am in process of filing a complaint with them against Freedom Shores.

2) To William's reply (William is the son of Thelma, the owner of Freedom Shores), posted under his user name 'Memito6662':

- When we arrived at the park, Thelma was out and we were checked in by another employee who gave us the choice between an oceanfront space or a space on the side next to the central building. We didn't choose the oceanfront space since the other spaces were/are cheaper.
While we were setting up at the space, the only other RV guest at the time (a Canadian) walked by us with his dog and since we have a dog, we started talking. He informed us that when he checked into his oceanfront site, he noticed a grounding issue at his site (which upon notifying Thelma of the issue, Thelma hired an electrician who came out and fixed the issue), but he was lucky it didn't cause any issues inside his RV.
We plugged into our site and as said, the incorrectly wired outlet killed our converter and microwave/convection oven.
We complained to the employee on site who asked us to wait until Thelma returned. She came back a few hours later in the afternoon and called an electrician, who came out shortly later the same day and confirmed the incorrectly wired outlet. He fixed the outlet right then and there. It turns out that when an electrician came out when the Canadian complained about a ground issue, that electrician only checked and fixed any electrical issues on the oceanfront sites.
In any case, the Canadian's electrical issue was a ground issue, not the issue that we encountered on our site.
Thelma acknowledged the fault and offered to reimburse us for our expenses. We were to get back in touch with her once we knew how much it would cost; which was upon our return to the U.S. as we didn't find an RV store in Merida or in another location in Central America (where we traveled until June).

Upon our return to the U.S., I inquired at Princess Craft in Round Rock, Texas (where we purchased our truck camper right before leaving on the trip) what the cost is to replace the converter and microwave and attempted to contact Freedom Shores several times. When William finally contacted us, he said it is our fault.

- While talking with Thelma before we left, she complained to us that it is so hard to find good vendors (i.e. a qualified electrician) in Isla Aguada, because it's such a small place; so she keeps running into electrical issues.
Hence, it is hard to swallow that William is acting like it is our fault when his mother is the one who told us about the electrical issues and agreed to reimburse us.

- Another RV'er who stayed at Freedom Shores in September 2013 confirmed that when they were there, that Thelma was aware that the park had electrical issues, since there was an electrician doing apparently major work. (which I cannot confirm; I'm relying on the other RV'ers posting)

- I definitely agree with other posters here who argue that, as an RV'er, you shouldn't be required to know how to handle a multi-meter or even use it.

As a conclusion, William basically commented on my original posting the same way as he spoke to us on the phone.
I'm glad that he took the time to post his opinion here so at the very least all the readers here can make up their own mind as to what is the right thing to do for an RV park, and also to see what you can expect if you run into any trouble while staying at Freedom Shores.

It's not about the money for us; it's about the principle of the matter.
I still think that we are entitled to getting full reimbursement of our converter and microwave/convection oven, but we only asked for half. Hopefully we will be able to get some justice done by working with the Mexican consumer protection agency.

91 Replies

MEXICOWANDERER
Explorer
Sep 04, 2014
It helps to use common sense when figuring out whether or not to pound a ground rod here or there.

I've camped in a total of three parks where when I checked the outlet, hot and neutral were NOT oriented correctly on the receptacle.

Permit me to tell you of a real story. First hand, not someone else, not theory or conjecture, or regulations out of a NEMA or NEC manual. Reality...

BOCA de IGUANAS, JALISCO year 2002

I was offered the parking space behind the bodega blocking the view to the beach. Good price several months long term. Checking the receptacle I found it to be cracked and corroded. Went to the office. Told them I had a new receptacle free. They said mañana. But the next day the the camp worker did show up, was a good kid and we had fun changing the outlet. Had to cut six inches off the wires to not find almost pure green powder. Wire gauge was standard 14 gauge stranded. The kid had a hell of a time trying to curl the wire round the screws so I got some #6 spade terminals and crimped them onto the live wires. This is what nitrile exam gloves are all about. Job done but no ground wire, I asked permission to pound an 18" long 1/2" diameter varilla, (rebar) into the ground and clip my chassis to the rod. I was given permission. Into the ground it was driven the wet down with a couple of buckets of salt water.

Two months passed, then one afternoon, everybody started yelling. Smoke was pouring out of the ground in half a dozen areas. Then power went out.

The brother in law of the owner worked on the main panel, three phase 100 ampere CFE standard regulation. The IDIOT reversed neutral and L1, neutral and L2 and neutral and L3 in all three panels.

Guess what? When you reverse neutral ground there is NO FREAKIN' BREAKER. NO PROTECTION on the hot side to ground. No problem you say? Neutral will be protected by the breaker even though the polarities are reversed.

EL WRONGO

MUFAS meaning service drops must have a ground round before the breaker panel. This is a CFE regulation and they are strict as hell about it.

So the park burned up each and every junction point. Yeah! All those high tech twist and tape junctions.

The #8 ground wire on my rig sacrificed itself. The shore power cord neutral was fried. The neutral buss in the breaker box was discolored.

But it saved me from getting a deadly shock. The converter in my rig had a neutral to chassis ground fault. Never would have known it had not neutral been reversed with phase hot. Death by electrocution or helping a kid and two more workers fix all the blown junction points.

Sorry. I prefer to stay alive.

(Oh what a shame, a heart attack and he was so young).
iguana07
Explorer II
Sep 04, 2014
Pounding ground rods can differ, if the soil is hard enough a chipping hammer won't even work. I know I did it off and on as a lineman. We used hydraulic 60 or 90#jack hammers with four foot rods, you won't see any one pounding an 8 foot rod, those are laid in trenches. That's why we pounded in a few depending on our readings and tied them together.
I added a secondary elect. panel at home and had to lay a 4foot rod and tie it into the copper water lines for my ground.
Navegator if you read my post I did not say you pounded ground rods.
briansue
Explorer
Sep 04, 2014
I also always test and have found many outlets in Mexico that are grounded. Normally it is not a green wire but a bare copper wire that is used for ground.

It is almost impossible to pound a long ground rod in by hand - which is why I mentioned the "chipping hammer" above - it will pound the rod in all the way in just seconds.
navegator
Explorer
Sep 04, 2014
At the house I soaked the ground for four days and then used a long drill the ones used to run wiring through the walls to drill a hole for the copper rod and it still took some doing to sink that rod, but the inspector checked it and was very satisfied that it was as code says it should be.

I am not to worried about having a dedicated ground as long as I have a dedicated NEUTRAL line, for many years in Mexico and still today they only run two lines one hot and one neutral and that is all you are going to get.

I will repeat.

I ALWAYS CHECK BEFORE I PLUG INTO ANY OUTLET FOR A HOT AND A NEUTRAL ANYWHRE I HAPPEN TO BE USING MY RV IN CANADA, THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA OR MEXICO.

navegator
Bumpyroad
Explorer
Sep 04, 2014
briansue wrote:

In residential construction the standard used to be to pound an 8 foot length of 5/8” copper rod straight down into the ground.

when I read about those pounding rods into the ground I thought years back I had read that it had to be 6-8 ft or so to be worth doing. I found it difficult to pound a 2 ft rod in, more or less an 8 foot piece.
bumpy
navegator
Explorer
Sep 04, 2014
Mexico follows the electric code from the US but not the new code they go by the old code from the 1940 to maybe 1960's, the indutry today is following the US code they can not afford to have all those robots and have bad wiring and no grounds, etc.

RV parks on the other hand do not follow any code, all they need are two wires, color does not matter as long as it goes where it has to go, I have seen wiring that had the same color all over and with out a mutimeter you could not make sense of what was what, I gues they had a sale on black color wire.

I have made some adapters to use when I find that there are 2 hot wires and one neutral on a "30" amp outlet, no ground.

As far as my RV is concerned if I have a 120Vac hot and a NEUTRAL I have power, it is when the Neutral is not present that I will not hook up at all, the ground in my RV is also hooked to the NEUTRAL of the incoming line.

At the house when I rewired I intalled a code copper rod into the ground and hooked the green wires to the rod and the copper water lines and to the white neutral on the boxes, in the RV I some times do not have the luxury of havin a dedicated ground since there is none at the power source.

I have the roof airconditioner, the rear ladder the truck chasis and the steel cage of the "house" and the green wire from the 120Vac in the RV and cable hooked to a ground strap that hangs under the truck and gets replaced when worn, for lightning protection, I am trying to give the lightning bolt a path away from us inside, if some of the electrical equipment loses the smoke and we are not hurt so be it, they can be replaced, my wife or cat can not.

navegator
briansue
Explorer
Sep 04, 2014
The National Electric Code in the US can get very complicated. I do not know about code in Mexico – most we see does not appear to comply with codes we are aware of in the US.

In residential construction the standard used to be to pound an 8 foot length of 5/8” copper rod straight down into the ground. This is almost impossible to do by hand unless you are pounding into sand. A trick is to use a “chipping hammer” (see web address below – they usually cost from $300 to $800 – can be rented in the US). But if you were to put something like this in the ground in an RV park you would probably want to get it back (they are not cheap) and pulling one out can be more difficult that putting one in. With today’s electronics it is possible that some residences might require a more substantial ground than the old standard – I do not know for sure.

When you get into commercial electric it gets more complicated. As near as I can tell it is acceptable under certain circumstances to use METAL water pipes (preferably copper) that are known to travel underground for at least 20 feet. Some code stuff can be found at website I list below if someone wants to try to figure it out.

The reason for not pounding rebar into the ground which was brought up in this thread is the risk of hitting an electric line or a water pipe. Unless you know what is below where you are penetrating the earth it may not be a good idea to risk this. It may be possible to determine where the electric and water going to your hookup might be going in the ground – this would be on an case by case basis.

Some years ago I found a 5 foot length of stainless steel rod ½” diameter that was sold as a temporary ground rod. I cannot remember where I got it. I have not had to use it so far. So far in Mexico (and the US) I have been able to find another space/site within an RV park that has good ground if the first one I am assigned does not pass my tests. I do know how to use a multimeter to test all this stuff but not everyone does nor should they be expected to. We previously brought up some ways to do most of the tests and the tools needed. Below is a web address that might shed more light on all of this.

There are ways to test how good your ground is but as far as I know it requires special equipment and I do not know how to do it.

Today’s RVs are loaded with electronic devices – and most of us have computers in our RVs. We have had our inverter fried (I think it could have been a nearby lightning strike but never sure). As mentioned, today’s refrigerators and inverters and microwaves and clocks and far too many components to name all have some kind of electronics in them. Electronics are usually pretty delicate – they run on low power – so it does not take much to overpower and burn them up. I am trying to stay away from technical talk. Quite a few years ago we had lightning take out half our entertainment system. A TV antenna up high can be an attraction for lightning. One of mine got hit twice – outside my house.

If you are connected in any way to shore power and there isn’t a known good ground then you may be increasing your chances of a lightning strike. I am not sure how susceptible to lightning a free standing RV might be. A ground rod can provide some margin of safety.

We need to be aware of protecting ourselves and our equipment. Most of the places we have been in Mexico have had OK electricity (even grounded outlets) but we have been places where electricity is bad and not safe. By this I mean specific spaces in specific parks – this is not about the power company and the electricity they supply. But we test every outlet we plug into just to make sure. Much of this was explained in previous posts in this thread. We have found bad outlets and bad power in the US as well.

http://www.ecmag.com/section/safety/dirt-ground-rods

http://www.psihq.com/iread/strpgrnd.htm

http://rvsafety.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/AC_Electrical_Safety-GS.pdf

http://www.dewalt.com/tools/hammerdrills--hammers-compact-sds-rotary-hammers-d25330k.aspx
navegator
Explorer
Sep 03, 2014
I call some IDIOTS idiots because they are idiots, only an idiot passes my RV in a blind curve and there is a vehicle comming in the other direction.

Only an IDIOT hooks the water hose and procedes to wash the electrical pedestal, including the outlets and can not figure out why there was a big BBBZZZZFFOOM and sparks and now there is no more electricity in that part of the park.

Some people are Idiots and will not learn no matter what, like the know-it-all at work!

There are naturally slow persons and the there are fast persons some are fast some are slow that is OK with me.

An idiot is one that does not learn from theire mistakes and does not listen to reason or instructions.

navegator
navegator
Explorer
Sep 03, 2014
The unit is a 2001 year.

Refrigerator 12 Vdc cirquit board
Water heater 12Vdc cirquit board
Cabin heater 12Vdc and themostat is also 12Vdc cirquit boards

Television 12Vdc and 120Vac
Microwave 120Vac
Coffee maker 120Vac

The battery charger has no big electronics 120Vac input and 12Vdc out put
If I turn the house battery switch off the fridge, water heater, cabin heater do not work! I have shure guard permanentlly hooked to the RV and it works!

I--DO--NOT--POUND--REBAR--RODS--IN--THE--GROUNDE--ANY--WHERE--AT--ALL!!!!!!!

Mexicowanderer is the one that pounds rebar in the ground!!!

I always check that any outlet that I am going to plug in has a 120Vac hot and a NEUTRAL in the USA I also check for a ground THERE ARE NO GROUNDS IN MEXICO as in little green wires I use a FLUKE MD73AS3 600V CAT-II 300mA to 10A and monitor the vltage with a volt meter in the galley.

The OP hooked to a voltage source that was not hooked correct and some equipment got damaged, I have never had any damage ever in any of my VW's or my present RV, I CHECK BEFORE PLUGING.

ALL I AM STATING IS THAT DRIVING REBAR INTO THE GROUND CAN BE A POTENTIAL ELECTROCUTION IF THEY DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

MEXICOWANDERER HAS MORE THAN ENOUGH KNOWLEDGE TO BE ABLE TO DO THIS CORRECTLLY

I have encoutered every combination of misswired outlets while travelling in Mexico and a few in the States, ALLWAYS CHECK BEFORE YOU PLUG IN!!!

navegator
iguana07
Explorer II
Sep 03, 2014
Navegator why do you keep calling people "Idiots" not nice! As far as I can tell you are not completely correct on your methods either. Over twenty years ago while I was a lineman for the phone company we had to supply grounds to our aerial system. We would drive ground rods near the telephone pole then take readings until we hit or came close to our designated ohm reading. We would then run ground wire from the rods which were connected together with copper connectors up the pole and tie on to our strand wire. This was all to protect the customers in case of "power line which is above the strand" came in contact with our cables. As far as wet we occasionally would have to wet the ground and rods to get a better reading. Trick that was taught by the old timers, not really a good idea. We never drove rods without having had look ups first.
I do not recommend driving ground rods. You need to make sure you are getting the amount of ground you need, so without the proper equipment your just guessing. If your system is not properly grounded you can easily fry your electronic equipment,also you stand a chance of your rig being the ground and you could get a nice charge.
I do not hook up to any power source without taking my readings for voltage,reversals and opens. If there is a problem and it can be fixed which I have done in Mazatlan once, I will hook up, otherwise I do not take the chance.