Winnebago Electric Motorhome on a F-53 chassis

Chainwright,

Did you read time2roll's link? Here in Massachusetts they talk about being allowed to spend $45 million dollars to put in some 3,500 charging stations by 2025. Ok, we're not a big state, but 3,500 charging stations is a trivial amount even for our miniscule state. Although, this is at a cost of over $12,000 per station. AND, that doesn't include the cost of the charging station, that's just running the power to a pad someplace from a transformer. The land owner who partakes in the program has to BUY the charging stations themselves. Eversource is only going to bring the power in and meter it. The business will have to pay the other expenses. What is the ROI for a company to do this? I have no idea, but perhaps you do?

Of course, they don't mention ANYTHING about where this power will come from. The distribution network is an important piece of the puzzle, but unless you've got the electrical power in the first place, it sort of a moot point. I wouldn't take that link as an "all positive" support at all.

And another thing that bothers me is that Eversource is projecting this project out to 2025 here in Massachusetts. That's 7 years away!!! This technology is changing rapidly. What guarantee is there that a charging station installed in 2018 will be usable by vehicles manufacture in 2025? Or 2024? Or 2023? Or even 2020? As far as I know, there is NOT a single charging standard which ALL EVs use, is there? I thought there were at least 2 or 3 major standards. So, it's more than just having a charging station available, you have to have access to a charging station which will work with your vehicle. And once your vehicle gets "too old" will there be retro charging stations available. The model years of vehicles in our family are 2004, 2003 & 2001, and I expect to have ALL of them for at least the next 5 years. I have 100% confidence I'll be able to buy gasoline anywhere in the country to operate any of those vehicles. IF an EV was manufactured in that era, would it's charging technology still be available? In what numbers?

As an engineer, may recommendation was that the VERY FIRST THING ALL prospective manufacturers of EVs should have done was to have a summit and decide on the charging system they would employ. Agree on a common standard. Musical instrument manufacturers did this in the early 1980's with the Musical Instrument Digital Interface (MIDI), which is STILL a viable standard. Even though it's dated, it is still used and supported 100%. Computer manufacturers did the same with the Universal Serial Bus (USB) back in the mid-1990's. Those standard were adopted by ALL major players in the market and EVERYONE benefitted from that collaboration. It's been revised and modernized, but it always offered backward compatibility so that devices made in the 90's would still function. How enticing would ICE vehicle's be if Fords could only run on BP gas, Toyotas only on Texaco and Cadillac's on Sunoco? A lot of the luster would've been gone.

One last thing, looking at that 7 year timeframe, wasn't it within the last 7 years that we, as consumers, were told and encouraged to buy "3D Televisions" because this was the coming thing? Hmmmm....try to buy one now. They are no longer manufactured. Oh, then a few years later, there were those "Curved screen" TVs we all NEEDED. Those are gone too!

My point being that this technology is evolving rapidly and modern industries have a very poor record of caring about customers using older equipment. Your cable company will tell you: "You need a new modem!" "But this one is only 3 years old!". "Doesn't matter, you need to meet our new protocols." "But I don't need the benefits of your new protocols." "Sorry, your old modem won't work with our new system." Or Apple, or Microsoft. Both of those companies have extensive records of changing their products and if your equipment is too old, their answer is for YOU to buy new equipment. Heck, I have an iPad that worked fine until Apple sent out an OS update, and now applications which worked FINE the day before and for several ipads BEFORE this one, NO LONGER WILL WORK. Same hardware! Apple changed something in their OS, they KNEW what they were doing, and didn't care. Oh, and let's not forget the Apple updates that were purposely slowing down older units to encourage customers to buy newer, faster devices. Will they do the same with EV's? "Hmmmm....my Tesla doesn't seem to have the same zip it had before." "Oh, you need to trade it in for version 2.0 to take advantage of all the new enhancements we've added to the software." "But, I don't NEED those enhancements, it was working fine for my use." "Trust me, we know best about what you need. Just give us your money." Probably a bit far-fetched. Or is it? The truth is, we don't know for sure.

It's those types of issues which cause me a great deal of concern about the rapid widespread implementation of EV technology. The technology should be allowed to mature on it's own. Spending billions of dollars to force it before the technology & infrastructure is ready is very costly. The old "Haste make waste" adage.

Again, I LOVE the technology. As a gear-head mechanic through my college years, I LOVE the performance that comes with the EV technology. But when I buy an expensive item like a motorhome, house, car, major appliance, I expect it to be viable for a time period measured in decades, not 5-7 years.

I'm not trying to sound negative, but I've "invested" enough of my money over the years in the "bleeding edge" technology of home computer evolution. I have neither the ambition nor the dollars to do that with EVs.

Still a good thread. For those of you with extra deep pockets to fund all of these experiment, feel free. I wish I didn't have to help it with my electric bill, but I guess I don't mind doing my part for the cause. :)

~Rick

wildmanbaker wrote:
Max, what point are you trying to make here? You seem to be arguing with everybody, in the face of facts, and the laws of physics. You seem to be talking down to people who comment on the posts, not necessarily against you, but realistically. The comments do not seem to be trying to tear down whatever the market is trying to come up with, remember the market is trying to GET YOUR MONEY. So, the people are without hope? Just what hope are the people running out of? Am I or any other posters against EV, or Hybrids, that's a no for me, and probably others, but we are more realistic about if it is possible or not at this time. Come on, lighten up, you will live longer, and be happier. I'm just like everyone else, I am wrong a lot, and will be many more times. Happy NEW YEAR.

wooow wooow, hold up sport. Just because you cite some laws of physics that doesn't make you an authority on the matter like some here are trying to make themselves look. And if you want to talk FACTS, you have to look at ALL the facts not just the "Convenient" ones. The "Dirty" facts that no one wants to talk about because they're so hung up on their Darling Political systems. For yrs Universities have been coming up with technologies and designs and inventions of transportation devices that can go 1k mi or 2k mi on a gallon of gas, a solar panel, 3-4 gallons of water and the list goes on. MIT, GT, Univ in Australia and Canada and so on. Then Big oil buys up the plans and designs and you never hear about them again. The big oil lobby and Auto lobby paying off everyone to not pass a bill that will benefit Newer technologies. Legalized corruption. No Sir, That's the REALITY right there, the one you like to pretend that doesn't exist. In my previous posts, maybe not this thread, I said that ICE will be prohibited in most of the rest of the world by 2030, but THAT seems to have flown right over you detractors' heads. I never said this is going to happen tomorrow. I'm not an Engineer but some with no credentials to their names sure come on here and act like they are. The newer technology we have today will be even better in 2025-2030 and many of us, or the people on here to day "bashing" it won't even be around to see it, but they're sure doing a good job at bashing it.
Now.........You wanna go have that beer or what. lol

time2roll wrote:

Rick Jay wrote:
This has been an interesting thread to read, both Pro & Con. Thank for the entertainment.

As a self-proclaimed pragmatist, this is the problem I see. If EVERY passenger vehicle and RV/Truck on the road today would be replaced, free of charge, with an electric vehicle, commerce in this country would STOP. Why? The electrical distribution infrastructure is not there to supply that much electricity. Even if just a small portion of all vehicles could be replaced, we'd be in a lot of trouble.

It doesn't matter if the perfect electric vehicle technology (1,000 mile range/10 minute recharge) is available IF there's no way to charge them.

The good thing is that all these EVs are not going to drop in 30 days. More like 10 to 30 years. Electric distribution and generation has time to adapt and grow as needed. All the utilities I know of are actually on board with EVs and cannot wait to supply the bulk of energy for most transportation.

https://www.eversource.com/content/ema-c/residential

Ahh, thank you, like a breath of fresh air.

Rick Jay wrote:
This has been an interesting thread to read, both Pro & Con. Thank for the entertainment.

As a self-proclaimed pragmatist, this is the problem I see. If EVERY passenger vehicle and RV/Truck on the road today would be replaced, free of charge, with an electric vehicle, commerce in this country would STOP. Why? The electrical distribution infrastructure is not there to supply that much electricity. Even if just a small portion of all vehicles could be replaced, we'd be in a lot of trouble.

It doesn't matter if the perfect electric vehicle technology (1,000 mile range/10 minute recharge) is available IF there's no way to charge them.

The good thing is that all these EVs are not going to drop in 30 days. More like 10 to 30 years. Electric distribution and generation has time to adapt and grow as needed. All the utilities I know of are actually on board with EVs and cannot wait to supply the bulk of energy for most transportation.

https://www.eversource.com/content/ema-c/residential

Max, what point are you trying to make here? You seem to be arguing with everybody, in the face of facts, and the laws of physics. You seem to be talking down to people who comment on the posts, not necessarily against you, but realistically. The comments do not seem to be trying to tear down whatever the market is trying to come up with, remember the market is trying to GET YOUR MONEY. So, the people are without hope? Just what hope are the people running out of? Am I or any other posters against EV, or Hybrids, that's a no for me, and probably others, but we are more realistic about if it is possible or not at this time. Come on, lighten up, you will live longer, and be happier. I'm just like everyone else, I am wrong a lot, and will be many more times. Happy NEW YEAR.

Valhalle
I guess this where me and you disagree which is ok. But I've lived in Europe 30 yrs. 150 mile is a long distance in Europe.

"A positive attitude doesn't change the laws of physics. So far no one is close."
Wow what noble reply. So, how do you know this? Popular Mechanics? Are you a automotive or aeronautical or Engineer who attends conferences on the subject 2 or 3 times a yr? No one is close to what? we're not looking for perfection. Just something that gives you 300-400 miles per tank/charge, 20-30 mpg/Miles per "what ever the source is" and curbs our emission by a considerable percentage.

Why did LPG NEVER take over a large part of the market? they've had this technology in Europe of over 45 yrs. They'd take a LPG tank put it in the trunk and hook it up to the motor (very simplified version) and after practically running out petroleum they switch over to LPG through a switch up front by the steering wheel, and get another 140 miles extra. Why didn't we Expand on that technology?

"It's not nearly as dark as some would have you believe. Most of the doom and gloom is from people with a vested interest in making you believe it will be doom and gloom. "

Uhm yeeeah. You're that person.

"RV's and big trucks really aren't the best place to start."

Who said they WERE the best place to start? We've been discussing EV's and hybrids and other forms of energy in these forums for yrs. EV's have been around since 1896. We should be beyond EV's at this point.

Soo, Mr Savant, you really haven't offered anything Positive. No nothing, just negative nit picking and tearing down whatever the market is trying to come up with to get away from ICE's. Do you have anything POSITIVE to contribute? ANYTHING that will leave people with some HOPE? ANYTHING?

Rick Jay wrote:
This has been an interesting thread to read, both Pro & Con. Thank for the entertainment.

As a self-proclaimed pragmatist, this is the problem I see. If EVERY passenger vehicle and RV/Truck on the road today would be replaced, free of charge, with an electric vehicle, commerce in this country would STOP. Why? The electrical distribution infrastructure is not there to supply that much electricity. Even if just a small portion of all vehicles could be replaced, we'd be in a lot of trouble.

It doesn't matter if the perfect electric vehicle technology (1,000 mile range/10 minute recharge) is available IF there's no way to charge them.

It seems all of the government funds are going into EV research and "green energy" alternatives. But solar & wind power can't even supply a significant portion of the demand we have now, let alone when millions of EVs are running around.

And even if we COULD create the needed energy with solar & wind, HOW is it going to get distributed to where it's needed? The current electrical grid is incapable of doing so. And utilities, as regulated bodies, are limited as to how much they can increase their rates, so that limits them as to how many dollars they can spend on improvements to their infrastructure. It's a catch-22 situation.

The utility infrastructure in many parts of this country, electric & natural gas specifically, is very old and in need of major overhaul. We had a very serious natural gas incident here in Massachusetts earlier this year, partly blamed on the old gas pipelines and equipment.

Money needs to be spent to fix this, but it's not as "glamorous" as a shiny new EV or a field of photovoltaic panels, so it's easy to sway the politicians to support the new technology, and just keep letting the utilities patch the old infrastructure piece-meal. There are technologies which COULD provide the electricity needed (more nuclear and fossil fuel plants) but those aren't the "popular" options now. Their construction is so riddled with government regulations, it takes forever to get them approved and built, IF they get approved.

The generation of and the pipelines to get the electrons to the vehicles have to be modernized. Until that happens as a concerted, NATIONAL effort, this technology will have very limited appeal. What will be the appeal of buying a $100,000 vehicle when you have to make the decision each hot summer's night to either turn on your home's Air Conditioner or recharge your vehicle so you can get to work?

As an Electrical Engineer (>35 years...dang....I'm getting old too! LOL), I'm fascinated by the technology that is before us. But as a pragmatist, the technology has to be able to "fit" into the societal infrastructure(s) we have. Or, we have to be prepared to invest huge amounts of money to change those infrastructures to accommodate the new technology. I don't see many signs of this occurring, so that casts serious shadows over widespread implementation of EV use.

As an aside, off-topic, sort of parallel topic to ponder...can you imagine if the internal combustion engines were just now under development and the developers were trying to approve them for street use? I envision conversations such as this: "What do they use for fuel?" Gasoline. "Never heard of it, is it dangerous?" Hell yeah, very explosive. "OK, How are you going to get it to these vehicles?" Oh, that's easy. We're going to build a distribution network from refineries, to depots and then transport them by over-the-road trucks to stations on street-corners around the country, and they're going to store thousands of gallons of this stuff in underground tanks!. "DENIED!!!" LOL, it would never happen. Fortunately, we developed that technology back in a time that was far less regulation driven. But the EVs are, to some extent, facing a similar uphill battle. They NEED a new electrical distribution infrastructure.

Good thread, though. Very thought provoking.

Happy New Year to All!!!

~Rick

Very well put...thank you Rick. As the "older" EE here I agree with everything you point out. I get into many discussions with my friends and neighbors regarding solar and wind power, and most really think we can replace all of the fossil fuel and Nuke plants with the above easy-peasy. I hate to burst their bubble, but when I explain how many panels they would need to run their home, PLUS the batteries for night and very cloudy weather they begin to understand. I hope one day we do get there, but, independent of the oil and gas lobby, we are still 10-20 years off at least....Happy New Year!!

Al

This has been an interesting thread to read, both Pro & Con. Thank for the entertainment.

As a self-proclaimed pragmatist, this is the problem I see. If EVERY passenger vehicle and RV/Truck on the road today would be replaced, free of charge, with an electric vehicle, commerce in this country would STOP. Why? The electrical distribution infrastructure is not there to supply that much electricity. Even if just a small portion of all vehicles could be replaced, we'd be in a lot of trouble.

It doesn't matter if the perfect electric vehicle technology (1,000 mile range/10 minute recharge) is available IF there's no way to charge them.

It seems all of the government funds are going into EV research and "green energy" alternatives. But solar & wind power can't even supply a significant portion of the demand we have now, let alone when millions of EVs are running around.

And even if we COULD create the needed energy with solar & wind, HOW is it going to get distributed to where it's needed? The current electrical grid is incapable of doing so. And utilities, as regulated bodies, are limited as to how much they can increase their rates, so that limits them as to how many dollars they can spend on improvements to their infrastructure. It's a catch-22 situation.

The utility infrastructure in many parts of this country, electric & natural gas specifically, is very old and in need of major overhaul. We had a very serious natural gas incident here in Massachusetts earlier this year, partly blamed on the old gas pipelines and equipment.

Money needs to be spent to fix this, but it's not as "glamorous" as a shiny new EV or a field of photovoltaic panels, so it's easy to sway the politicians to support the new technology, and just keep letting the utilities patch the old infrastructure piece-meal. There are technologies which COULD provide the electricity needed (more nuclear and fossil fuel plants) but those aren't the "popular" options now. Their construction is so riddled with government regulations, it takes forever to get them approved and built, IF they get approved.

The generation of and the pipelines to get the electrons to the vehicles have to be modernized. Until that happens as a concerted, NATIONAL effort, this technology will have very limited appeal. What will be the appeal of buying a $100,000 vehicle when you have to make the decision each hot summer's night to either turn on your home's Air Conditioner or recharge your vehicle so you can get to work?

As an Electrical Engineer (>35 years...dang....I'm getting old too! LOL), I'm fascinated by the technology that is before us. But as a pragmatist, the technology has to be able to "fit" into the societal infrastructure(s) we have. Or, we have to be prepared to invest huge amounts of money to change those infrastructures to accommodate the new technology. I don't see many signs of this occurring, so that casts serious shadows over widespread implementation of EV use.

As an aside, off-topic, sort of parallel topic to ponder...can you imagine if the internal combustion engines were just now under development and the developers were trying to approve them for street use? I envision conversations such as this: "What do they use for fuel?" Gasoline. "Never heard of it, is it dangerous?" Hell yeah, very explosive. "OK, How are you going to get it to these vehicles?" Oh, that's easy. We're going to build a distribution network from refineries, to depots and then transport them by over-the-road trucks to stations on street-corners around the country, and they're going to store thousands of gallons of this stuff in underground tanks!. "DENIED!!!" LOL, it would never happen. Fortunately, we developed that technology back in a time that was far less regulation driven. But the EVs are, to some extent, facing a similar uphill battle. They NEED a new electrical distribution infrastructure.

Good thread, though. Very thought provoking.

Happy New Year to All!!!

~Rick

Chainwright wrote:
You keep bringing Long ranges up. AGAIN, it's a global economy, Winnebago, thor, Coachmen et al. don't just build MH's for America anymore. AGAIN for you 150 miles is Nothing, in other Major markets, it's ALOT.

Where are these markets? I spend a good bit of the year in Europe and have rented and hung out with the local RV crowd...150 miles is still very marginal range at best and it's not uncommon to put in a few hundred miles per day.

I don't want to deviate too much, but MY main objective is to keep progressing, my objective is to get away from the ICEs that we've been using for decades. I'm all for Innovation. Y'all have compelling arguments AGAINST the New technologies but In all Y'all INFINITE knowledge do y'all have any compelling arguments FOR (PRO) any Knew Technologies?

A positive attitude doesn't change the laws of physics. So far no one is close.

Now to CITY buses: I've lived in A lot of major cities, Yes many still use Catenary Electric power, but most use LPG. Never heard of Hybrid city buses, but hey, who am I, I'm not an expert, I'll give y'all the benefit of the doubt. But yeah, whatever happened to a LPG MH concept?

I'm marginally involved in transit for work. LPG never took over a large part of the market. Diesel was always the go-to work horse for buses but hybrid has taken the lead. Battery works for some low speed short distance routes but still has limitations. Cantenary is generally limited to very high volume routes...usually light rail rather than buses as it's a big expense to install and maintain.

The objective (at least for me) was never to TOTALLY eliminate the use of oil (petroleum), but instead of being almost totally dependent on it why not cut our current usage in viable areas and curb global emissions by 50-60% if possible and where possible?

It's very simple. Live in a tiny well insulated apartment walking distance to work and don't travel.

Again Y'all have some compelling arguments Against just about everything that modern and futuristic technologies are coming up with Today. But at the rate we are going, It's not about the HERE and Now, I have to look to the future because I have a son, and if I present him with YOUR outlook, it makes for a dark future without hope. Also, Some of you seem to be savants in this area or maybe just Well read, But I see the strides and progress that Mercedes, BMW, Peugeot, Toyota, Honda, tesla (et al) Engineers are making and coming up with, yet you come on here and pretty much bad mouth everything that these engineers come up with. So who should I Listen too??? What are YOUR credentials, what are YOUR achievements in this arena? who seems to be more expert in this area you or the Engineers from MB, BMW and so on? Where do their experties and expert knowledge exceed yours?
Now......where do you propose the auto/transportation industry should focus their Research on?
JMHO, hope no one is offended or taking it personal.

It's not nearly as dark as some would have you believe. Most of the doom and gloom is from people with a vested interest in making you believe it will be doom and gloom.

RV's and big trucks really aren't the best place to start...they really need the large power plants and the long range...even local delivery trucks do north of a 100-150 miles per day with heavy loads.

Passenger cars are where the big benefits can be found. Plug-In-Hybrids are a greats solution, even a modest 30 mile range will result in 80-90% of miles driven being electric but when you need to go farther, you can all without the flaws of a pure electric.

Chainwright wrote:


Your Regular cabs at Red McCombs start at 36K MSRP. But this is pretty much a Crewcab. I'm talking MSRP with out discounts and Rebates. But I double ck'd on Red's website. What's your source?

Ford website.