Reese DC question - frame height

myredracer wrote:


Related to this, I read the (long) thread on the DC setup a couple of months back. Excellent read. I am going to the opportunity to mount the cam arm brackets better this time with shims to account for the difference in the radii of the A-frame and bracket. I've noticed these brackets have moved a bit which I don't like. Will check square and true, etc. at the same time. I have a feeling the threads on the 4 bolts holding the brackets on may be slightly damaged so am going to order some new ones to be safe. Not sure if I can use a tap and similar bolt without having to use the Reese one.

If the frame is 1/8" tube I would not use the self tapping bolts and my shim would be 1/4" steel plate with a radius ground in for the DC mount - like this:

Ya, I added them, the fish plates and supports right across from side to side on all 3 hangers after seeing all the threads on here. Thise frames really are just bent sheet metal, calling them "I BEAMS" is a bit of a joke.

Next time I have the chance I want to check out the Arctic Fox frames, they still make there own.

myredracer wrote:


I've seen the photos where the Reese hitch head can clash with the lower front of the A-frame. I know you can get a 1" raised ball, but if that isn't enough? I haven't been able to find info or pics of an A-frame on an 8" frame. I just don't know if there is anything to worry about yet or if there could be geometry and clearance issues.

Our A-frame consists of tubing now and I assume the new one will be too. WDH was bought new last year and seems to be all made in China components. Not a question in this discussion, but I bought a 2nd pair of spring bars (1200 lbs) that are 1/2" longer then the 800 lb ones.

There are properly rated 2" hi rise tow balls. On my vintage HP trunnion bar head, Reese tech service said I could use a 2" hi rise ball if I needed to. I only needed a 1" hi rise ball and a 1/4" heavy washer creating 1 1/4". I have the 3 piece welded head on this camper.

Your new all cast one piece HP trunnion bar hitch head has a higher boss on the top to gain more ball nut clearance. That helps lower the hitch head, and if needed you can confirm with Reese if they will allow a 2" hi rise ball on the new all cast 1 piece head. I feel they will, however you can confirm. Again this would be a 1st step "if" you have an 8" tall A frame which I doubt you will. I will see if I can hunt to find the 8" tall cargo trailer frame with the DC.

Once you get the info on the A frame size, report back and we can start prepping for that.

You mentioned up-sizing the WD bars to 1,200# bars. Yes, the 1,200#'ers can be longer than the 800#. I have seen that too on mine. You just need to adjust properly for it.

Which leads to the installation of the hitch. Will you be mounting the DC or will the dealer? Unfortunately I have seen too many not installed correctly. It seems drilling on the DC can be a handful if not understood correctly. They drill it on in the wrong spot... If you are going to do it, let us know I'll pass along some pointers.

Another heads up is if your new A frame is rectangular tubing and you are going to 1,200# bars/TW, a heads up about the need for bolting on snap up's and preventing tube frame crush, both at the DC area and the snap up. Several members with 1,000# and up TW's have had the bent snap up unless they bolt on the snap up and add a form of anti tube crush plate. Not all tube A frames are created equal. The tube thickness can vary. Here is one members recent tube frame crush problem. This is the worst I have seen. Not saying you will have this, but for sure something to try and prevent before you get into it. His post starts out with setup and ends up with frame crush Dual Cam Setup

If you search on bent snap ups you should turn up some of the other snap up issues. Reese now puts it in the instructions about bolting on the snap-up of heavier TW's.

Hope this helps

John

Fisherguy:

Those little gussets should help a lot to stiffen up the side to side movement. 2x2 tubing to the underside of the bottom flange also helps. They'll do anything to save weight I guess.

It would be nice to be able to look at the underside of frames to see how they designed and welded the cross-members but they're closed up with the coroplast so you can't see a thing. I've seen a few photos of 2x2 from left to right I-beams just tacked in place. Then you add some side to side movement and you'll get some cracks.

myredracer wrote:
Just to clarify, my question is what are we going to get with 8" tall I-beams for height of the A-frames? And if it's over 6", is there going to be issues?

If 6" I-beams have 5" A-frames, would 8" A-frames have 7" tall A-frames or could they be 6"? Or maybe they mount the coupler a bit lower?

myredracer wrote:
You can find lots of tech. info. on axles from Alko and Dexter but with frames, there's nothing.

Hi again RedRacer,

You have 2 areas of question, the A frame and the hitch setup. I will address each separately and start with the A frames.

An 8” tall main frame rail is large for a 7,000# GVWR camper. It is not a bad thing, you said it was special order so good for you. I would rather have HD then light in a frame. Just because you have an 8” main frame rail does not mean you will have an 8” tall A frame. And odds are you will not. As I said in my prior post, I have 10” main frame rails and a 6” tall A frame.

That said, yes I have seen an 8” A frame on a TT, not common however this was a 10,000# GVWR area camper. The loaded TW drives it to 8" most of the time. And we had a cargo trailer here on RV.net a number of years ago a member wanted to get a DC to work on an 8” A frame. The cargo trailer being a low rider trailer was an issue to get the DC to work however it was overcome with proper setup of the hitch.

You mentioned if 6” I beams have 5” A frames then does 8” main frame rails have 7”? Well it does not work that way in practice. I have seen 5” main frame rails with a 5” A frame, 5” main frame rails with a 4” A frame, 6” main frame rails with 4” A frame etc. And as I said I have a 10” main frame rail with a 6” A frame. There is no exact industry standard.

About the only thing close to somewhat standard in the RV industry on TT A frames is, most are setup on a 50 degree inclusive angle of the A frame. And that is about it other than using many use a 2 5/16” tow ball. Some small TT's use a 2" ball. Everything else is whatever the frame designer wants to use.

The main frame rails may be made from the RV industry I shape, (notice I did not say I beam) or 2 stacked rectangular tubes making 10 to 12” tall main frame, or channel iron etc. Then there is the hangers if you are on leaf springs which have many different lengths and mounting methods. Add to that the axle on top or bottom of the spring, low slung axles and then different length springs with a different arch height. Then there are tire diameters and does the camper have a slide or not to name a few of the combinations to work through.

All those combinations create the right tire bump clearance above the tire to the bottom inside of the fender and the top of the axle tube to the bottom of the main frame rail. Now the main frame rail heads all the way to the front of the camper with many being a simple straight shape. Some of the ultra-lights even taper the main frame rails to save weight.

Once you get to the front of the camper there is a header that ties the left and right main frame rail together and to help hold up the front of the camper. Now you need to attach the A frame to the main frame. Here again we have several different methods on how to attach the A frame and then the ball coupler to the A frame. Again I have not been able to find a published standard on how to build a TT frame. That said, there are a few common methods in the more traditional approach. Some A frames attach under the frame rails, some A frames go through the header and there are multiple ways to go through the header.

See this link to a post I did a few years ago asking if anyone knew what the rating of their A frame was. How big a WD bar can you use and what is the max tongue weight it can hold before failure. Well no one that I have found yet has posted about that as it is not a commonly know rating. I do know Jayco on some of their light weight TT frames puts a sticker of max 1,000#WD bars right on the A frame. And I semi recall a Forest River new Back Packer series TT with a sticker too. Those stickers came from prior experience of bent ultra-light A frames from too heavy a WD bar. This link will show you several campers in the 7,000# GVWR range and how the A frame attaches to the camper.

TT A Frame Ratings

You stated you have 5” tall A frame now on your existing camper. If I understood that right. Since your new one will have a HD frame, they may up size the A frame to 6” however I doubt it will be more than this. And if it is 8”, OK you can still make it work but I really do not expect a 7,000# GVWR camper to have an 8” tall A frame.

The ball coupler, there are more 2 common mounting methods of the ball coupler on a TT that I have seen. I admit, I have not seen all of them... and do not declare I have. What I am going to say is not the absolute, so let’s call it "common".

Ball couplers on a TT for the most part are on the top or the bottom of the frame. There are others, some in the middle, however they are not as common. The different methods are used to somewhat establish a workable ball height to mate up with the truck and how the camper frame was made. Again back to the combinations of tire size, frame size, axle on top or bottom of springs, slides/no slide, to name a few and then how the A frame was attached to the main frame rails. The designer can pick a ball coupler to help hit the target of the ball on the back of the truck.

For the sake of this reply, we are only talking about TT's and TT's that use a WD hitch. There are a number of other style ball couplers and some used on a TT, but not as common as the 2 I'm going to show. Each of these create a slightly different setup of the DC and Reese WD hitch.

Here is the top mount, a common method used as many brand campers. It welds on the top of the A frame. There are several manufactures of these, Fulton is one of them. I think your existing coupler is on top.

Fulton ball coupler

Another is Shelby ball coupler

And Atwood Mobile ball couplers See page 24 of the PDF.

Here is one of mine with the ball coupler on top


The other somewhat common us a bottom mount coupler. Jayco uses this a lot with their larger slide camper setups. This is one of my camper buds, Turk2500’s setup


Both have different needs for the DC setup. However both can be made to work including an 8” tall A frame. That one is a little tougher, but doable.

Once you find out how tall your new A frame will be, is it C channel or rectangular tubing and is the ball coupler on top or the bottom we can hone if you need to buy any special hitch parts to make your existing Reese WD hitch and DC work with it.

I’ll address the WD hitch in the next reply.

Hope this helps

John

PS. You mentioned something on TT frames not being much posted, there are some posts, mainly stemming from a frame failure, A frame failures or twisted spring hanger brackets. I see FisherGuy joined in, he had the web crack issue. I beefed up my frame so that I shape lower flange problem would not occur and how to deal with long hangers. See here. TT Spring Hanger Stiffening (Long, lots of pics)

Ya, I had some issues with my Dexter frame, cracks above the centre spring hangers but I reinforced it like crazy, better than factory now and the newer ones come with little corner gussets on the bottom to stop the cracks.
We go off the pavement quite a bit though.

One thing I wouldn't do is let the dealer setup your hitch for you, from what I've read on here most dealers have no idea how to do it properly. Just get it home, have a good look at it, grab a beer and think about it, plan the whole thing out before you drill any holes in the frame, you don't wanna have to do it twice.
Enjoy the new trailer.

Fisherguy wrote:
Why don't you just ask the dealer or manufacturer what the A Frame is made with? Once you get that you'll find lotsa detailed threads on the Reese dual cam, John is the guru with them on here ann he helped me out a LOT with setting up mine.
What brand trailer are you getting?

I asked the dealer yesterday and he needs to chase somebody down at the factory. It's a year newer version of the same KZ TT we have now - old is 261RKS, new is 262RKS. This is not a normal setup for my particular unit from KZ. Not sure if it is KZ who specs every detail on a frame or it's Lippert who does. For the 2014 model year, KZ has a bunch of new things either standard or as options. Barrel ceiling, slam latches on compartment doors, frameless windows, and more. We've also ordered theater seating (in place of the sofa)and solid surface counters this time around so it is going to be awesome this time. :C

Oh man, have I done lotsa reading here on the Reese setup! Not a quick read for sure but very thorough and the best on the planet. Learned a lot from it.

I just don't want to head out to the dealer to pick up our new TT only to find that our present setup won't work. You can find lots of tech. info. on axles from Alko and Dexter but with frames, there's nothing.

Why don't you just ask the dealer or manufacturer what the A Frame is made with? Once you get that you'll find lotsa detailed threads on the Reese dual cam, John is the guru with them on here ann he helped me out a LOT with setting up mine.
What brand trailer are you getting?

Just to clarify, my question is what are we going to get with 8" tall I-beams for height of the A-frames? And if it's over 6", is there going to be issues?

If 6" I-beams have 5" A-frames, would 8" A-frames have 7" tall A-frames or could they be 6"? Or maybe they mount the coupler a bit lower?

I've seen the photos where the Reese hitch head can clash with the lower front of the A-frame. I know you can get a 1" raised ball, but if that isn't enough? I haven't been able to find info or pics of an A-frame on an 8" frame. I just don't know if there is anything to worry about yet or if there could be geometry and clearance issues.

Our A-frame consists of tubing now and I assume the new one will be too. WDH was bought new last year and seems to be all made in China components. Not a question in this discussion, but I bought a 2nd pair of spring bars (1200 lbs) that are 1/2" longer then the 800 lb ones.

OK, 5" "tall" A frame with ball coupler on top. Got it. I had a setup like that and have a bunch of pics of the setup to give some pointers. You have plenty of ground clearance so no problem there.

Do you by chance know if you have C Channel or rectangular tubing A frame? The A frame can be different than main frame rails and often time is. The 5" is an available C Channel size, rectangular tubing might be a custom order or it's and RV thing and made for the RV industry.

Before I type a bunch on the wrong needs for the setup, let me know if you know, if you are on C Channel or tubing. There are different needs for both. I can do both , it's just less confusing if I know going in.

By any chance do you have a pic of your WD hitch and the DC? It can even be the pile of parts on the floor or mounted on your older camper. Reese made several vintages of trunnion bar WD hitches/DC and I want to make sure I give you the right setup tips per the vintage.

Also what year did you buy the hitch and DC? I can sometimes hone in on the year it was bought as to what possible vintages they are.

HD frame under a 7,000# GVWR camper, yes that is an interesting thing to talk about. First off, good for you! I myself would be real interested in this. On line or off.

Hope this helps

John