2016 Toyota Tundra to come with Cummins diesel

I think Toyota's biggest problem is exemplified by the xenophobe mentality we see on this forum. People that won't buy a Toyota because they think its a "foreign vehicle", even though it has consistently been the most American truck since the 2007 model year. There are some people that are too ignorant to reason with. They will NEVER buy a Tundra, even if it had 1000 HP, 2000 lbs/ft torque, got 35 mpg towing and cost $20,000 fully loaded. Toyota will never win over these idiots. They complain that Toyota's profits go back to Japan (minus import taxes, sales tax, property tax, wage taxes, etc etc), even though they could buy Toyota stock and make money off Toyota's profits. These are often the same people that rave about the billions of dollars in bailout money that the US gov't (IE, our tax dollars) gave to GM. Personally I would rather get the taxes we get from Toyota and let the profits go back to Japan than spend BILLIONS of dollars propping up a flawed business. One doesn't create excess money and its BAD... the other costs billions of tax dollars and is GOOD? I don't understand.

X2. Amen.

Gotcha, I understand completely what you mean. When they first came out, they had some good commercials, showing how tough they are, how much weight they can pull, how good the brakes are, etc etc. Since then I haven't really seen any commercials for the Tundra.

I think Toyota's biggest problem is exemplified by the xenophobe mentality we see on this forum. People that won't buy a Toyota because they think its a "foreign vehicle", even though it has consistently been the most American truck since the 2007 model year. There are some people that are too ignorant to reason with. They will NEVER buy a Tundra, even if it had 1000 HP, 2000 lbs/ft torque, got 35 mpg towing and cost $20,000 fully loaded. Toyota will never win over these idiots. They complain that Toyota's profits go back to Japan (minus import taxes, sales tax, property tax, wage taxes, etc etc), even though they could buy Toyota stock and make money off Toyota's profits. These are often the same people that rave about the billions of dollars in bailout money that the US gov't (IE, our tax dollars) gave to GM. Personally I would rather get the taxes we get from Toyota and let the profits go back to Japan than spend BILLIONS of dollars propping up a flawed business. One doesn't create excess money and its BAD... the other costs billions of tax dollars and is GOOD? I don't understand.

Then you have your truck buyers that will only by their brand. The people that will only buy a (insert Big 3 brand here) and would never even consider another brand of truck. Again... Toyota could make a better product for a better price that has better power, better towing and better economy, but they won't buy it cause they have always been a (insert Big 3 brand here) truck owner.

I think that Toyota knows that American truck buyers are fiercely loyal and it was going to be hard to break into Ford/GM/Ram's market shares. I don't think they ever meant to sell huge numbers of trucks. They seem fairly happy selling 100,000 Tundra's a year for the time being. They originally wanted to sell about 200,000 a year (and did in 2007 before the economy tanked) and never really got back on track.

Time will tell if Toyota decides they want to double their sales or not. I love my Tundra. If they sell a true 3/4 ton (8800 lbs GVWR or higher) for a competitive price then I will really consider buying another one in a couple years. If not, I will be forced to pick from a smaller pool of 3/4 ton vehicles.

Toyota made a very good mini truck and at some point raised their own bar so to speak and came out with a full size 1/2 ton truck for that market. It improved to the latest Tundra model which could be considered a HD 1/2 ton. IMO they knew they wouldn't surpass domestic big three in sales but even their piece of the pie is profitable.
The new Cummins is perfect for their next move up into the 9k-10k GVWR size 3/4 ton size truck.

A Cummins in a Toyota. No one thought it possible when Toyota was a mini truck.

Toyota has had a long enough run to make a dent in 1/2 ton sales. If they were to pass say Ram in truck sales then you could take them seriously. But they maintain 5th place behind Ford, the GM twins, and Ram. Putting a Cummins motor in one isn't going to shake things up like the high mpg Ram 1500 will. I agree with the above post that Toyota entering the 3/4 ton market will be fruitless. No doubt they will sell enough to make it profitable, but will never beat out any of the big 3.
I will say that I feel Toyota makes a very good 1/2 ton truck, but lets face it there is such an underlying USA made customer base and loyalty to the big 3 that even if Toyota made an HD 1/2 ton like the HD Ford F150 with say 2300lbs of payload with the 5.0 Cummins it will never take enough sales away from the big 3 to matter.

otrfun...FWIW, and as a Toyota car and Tundra person, excellent dissertation, and I agree.

X2! Couldn't agree more. This year was Toyotas chance to catch up and compete with the new 2014 Tundra, but they fell far short. A new (and ugly) grill, tailgate and interior on the old platform is not a new truck.

The old platform is excellent but is getting long in the tooth. Simply adding cylinder deactivation to improve mileage slightly and upping the payload would have done wonders and improved sales without costing much.

The use of a Cummins in the truck verifies the above post as well. It's a marketing ploy to attract more domestic buyers. Why else would they use it instead of one of Toyotas own proven diesels?

otrfun...FWIW, and as a Toyota car and Tundra person, excellent dissertation, and I agree.

spoon059 wrote:

otrfun wrote:
Toyota has a marketing problem with their 1/2 ton truck---which can't be ignored.

I must have ignored it... what is their marketing problem?

If you like 'em, own 'em, it's an easy thing to do--lol!

First off, let me say I'm not on some kind of vendetta against Toyota or the Tundra. Believe it or not, I've owned two new Tundras during the last few years. They're good, reliable trucks.

If you read all of my posts ref this whole Tundra/Cummins/3/4 ton scenario you'll see a theme that I've stuck to. I'm not on some random mission to bash Toyota. The reality is, after sales of the 2007-2013 Tundra fell far short of expectations, after their grand plans for annual sales of 200,000 trucks a year crumbled, they've lost their way and really don't know how to posture themselves in the market place.

All one has to do is watch the Ford, Chevy, Ram, and Toyota truck commercials on TV to get an idea of what I'm talking about. It is so obvious what each manufacturer is trying to offer. Ford and Chevy boast about their trucks being the mainstream of the commercial truck world---out there in the oil fields, construction sites doing real work. Which they are and the sales numbers prove it. Ram boasts about "Guts, Glory, Ram", "Ram Tough", and brag about all their class-leading numbers---which are substantial across their entire line---and a big reason for their huge success of late. Then there's the Tundra commercial . . . it shows a suburban family working around their yard, going to Home Depot, dragging logs through their backyard, with no mention of one competitive feature. The commercial has a confusing theme. It just shows some of the cool things you can do with any truck in your spare time. For the macho truck crowd it's laughable.

In a nutshell, this is the Toyota Tundra's marketing problem. What image are they truly trying to present? In all honesty, the only marketing card they can play with any sense of credibility is the reliability card. It's a huge card, and IMO the only reason they've been able to sustain sales at their current levels. Toyota's goal is to simply hold on to their current market share.

Let's go back in time a bit. In 2000, Toyota, IMO, made a strategic error when they used a "band-aid", piece-meal, engineering approach for their new 2000 Tundra. All they did was basically convert a Tacoma into a 1/2 ton truck and stick the Tundra nameplate on it. When Toyota introduced the 2007 Tundra 7 years later, they had a terrible time jettisoning this reputation and image even though they had completely re-engineered the entire truck and (and at that time) had industry leading specs. I'm sure if they had to do it over again they would do things much differently.

So, to bring my position full circle, let's say Toyota entered the 3/4 ton truck segment. If they didn't want to repeat the 2000 Tundra fiasco, they'd have to come out with their guns blazing with a full-line, full featured 3/4 ton truck line. That is a huge undertaking of such massive financial proportions it absolutely boggles my mind. Toyota has already shown their unwillingness to invest heavily in the 1/2 ton Tundra, why on earth would they try do so in the much smaller, much more competitive 3/4 ton arena? For argument sake, let's say they did come out with the 5.0 Cummins and marketed it as a 3/4 ton truck. Yes, from a numbers perspective it would fill an important "void" which I've elaborated on in several previous posts. However, from a 3/4 ton marketing perspective they would be destroyed by the "numbers game" (payload, tow, HP, torque, etc.)---absolutely destroyed by the Big 3 in every category except MPG. Now, take the SAME TRUCK we just discussed and market it as 1/2 ton truck. Guess what, ALL these marketing problems go away. Same truck, but now it's a kick-ass, class leading 1/2 ton truck with all the numbers to prove it.

As I mentioned time and time again, if Toyota (or Nissan) can obtain 2000 lbs. payload, 12,500 lbs. tow capacity, and low-mid 20's highway MPG, with the 5.0 Cummins in a 1/2 ton platform, then they'll have a class-leading truck. Otherwise, if it's marketed as a 3/4 ton, it might as well bend over . . . and take it, like a wimpy 3/4 ton truck should.

Again, same truck, but different marketing.

In closing, I hope I've shed a clearer light on my position. Marketing is huge part of a truck's success. It's a lot more than numbers.

otrfun wrote:
Toyota has a marketing problem with their 1/2 ton truck---which can't be ignored.

I must have ignored it... what is their marketing problem?

JIMNLIN wrote:

otrfun wrote:
2. How can Toyota (or Nissan) seriously compete in the 3/4 ton market when they're not competitive in the 1/2 ton market? Big 3 buyers are pretty finicky and very brand faithful--especially in the macho, Heavy-Duty market What could Toyota and Nissan offer to compete head-on with the Big 3, big displacement, high-torque (850+ ft. lb.) diesels?

Looks like your looking for a argument.
Never said anything about Nissan. What I said was quote;
"IMO Toyota knows at some point they will have too compete in the HD pickup market. The 3/4 ton is the most popular of the HD pickups so naturally they would start at that point."
Toyota would like to compete in the 3/4 ton truck market. There is a place for a 3/4 ton HD pickup with a 300-500 new gen diesel that can show lower fuel usage rates and less maintenance and less up front costs.
Truck owners in the 3/4 ton market now have either the huge 750-850 ft lb diesel or a high hp smallblock gas guzzler at high rpms at high noise levels. IMO a 300/500 diesel would have a place in a HD 3/4 ton for a start.

I'm looking for an argument by asking you two perfectly, legitimate questions? Hhmm . . . interesting . . .

1. Just because you didn't mention anything about Nissan doesn't mean I'm not allowed to put Nissan in parenthesis as an understood equivalent (or secondary point). Toyota was obviously my primary point. That's why Toyota was not in parenthesis. Maybe you're not aware of it, but Nissan is also going to use a 5.0 Cummins diesel engine in their new Titan.

2. Secondly, you didn't address my first question. Your answer is crucial to understanding how you believe Toyota is capable or even willing to take on the 3/4 ton market. Just saying you feel they want to, and are capable of doing so, isn't much justification. I've given my justification for my position. Toyota has a marketing problem with their 1/2 ton truck---which can't be ignored.

3. Lastly, you more or less answered my 2nd question by stating my position on the 5.0 Cummins all along--that it fills a "void" in the market. But, you didn't address the primary question of how Toyota (and Nissan) can compete with the big displacement diesels in the 3/4 ton market. If you say they don't have to, then I believe you're ignoring all the basic marketing issues they'll encounter if they enter the 3/4 ton market.

otrfun wrote:

RobertRyan wrote:

otrfun wrote:
I get your point that the 5.0 Cummins, in some respects, may be more at home in a 3/4 ton truck. But, the reality is, a 5.0 Cummins 3/4 ton would be dead on arrival if it tried to compete with the larger 6.7++ liter 3/4 ton diesel offerings from the Big 3. It would be labeled a wannabe and wimpy.

Cummins in its advertising is saying this would be a great replacement for a V10 gas engine..Hmmm what engine could they be referring too?

FWIW, V10's aren't offered in consumer-grade 1/2 - 3/4 ton trucks anymore. Gotta wonder why . . .

And your point?

neither is the V-10 dodge engine so so what??


chevman