Alrighty gents... and a few ladies... looking at an 09 F350

exactly...my "koolaid" point was to point out that the TDI owners stopped drinking the Koolaid and fought back...the Blue Koolaid is so strong that any attempts to get a discussion started are always attacked and shut down by the Blue Koolaid Crowd...I am surprised they have not attacked this thread yet...

Back when my "Shameful Event" thread was active, I had several private emails from this site and the Ford Koolaid Site telling me their stories detailing the above treatment. The Ford Blue Koolaid Bunch(BKB) site is especially vicious when anyone dares to negatively question the antics and behavior of the Blue Oval... fights are started by the BKB and responses, no matter how civil, are removed and the poster punished...just ask niner bikes...you already know about my BKB exile

Regards

ricatic wrote:
My neighbor was a warranty audit engineer for VW for 5 years. He is very familiar with the official VW policy on CP4.xx warranty coverage. He has clearly stated several times to me when discussing the Bosch pump that VW was forced to take the position that all pumps are warranty...as I mentioned before...it was either that or a complete recall...He said VW was not happy but could not fight it further...

Evidently that Sauerkraut koolaid is not as strong as the Blue Stuff...

Regards

The big difference was that at TDIclub.com and their diesel owners, decided to get proactive and start a campaign to file every single failure of said HPFP's of any one that showed up on the club with one from a Google Search, and bombarded NHTSA with complaints and being proactive about it.

It further led to NHTSA opening up an Engineering Analysis case for the failed Bosch pumps. It also lead to discussions by a lot of engineers and laymen on TDIclub.com as to the cause of failure in the design. I know for a fact I was the only one on TDIclub to mention 3 or 4 pertinent observations on crank speed, pump speed in relationship to crank speed, roller rpm speed, a factor of the pump spinning 2x faster than the old VE pumps, a factor of Bosch going from 4 rollers at 2000 psi to one roller at 30,000 psi, and spinning at stupid rpms, and someone at NHTSA must have read my post on TDI club, because the wording in their questionaire to VW was looking awfully like "cut and paste" to me, when they grilled VW, Audi and Ford engineers with a complete questionaire, and all the points I made about design flaw were in there, and VW and Bosch had to answer.

It's fair to say a lot of questions asked by some of the smarter folks at TDI club that actually had failures, and pulled apart their pumps, like Ricatic did, ended up coming back to haunt VW and Bosch.

My take on it is this, based only on my laymen's observations... 1600 to 1800 bar pressure seems to be OK on these HPFP's with the solenoid injectors, and the HPFP's are rare then... However, change to 2000 psi and Piezo injectors, and the HPFP and system can't handle the additional load, sooner or later you'll get a failure.

I also think North American diesel fuel does not have enough lubricity in the D975 standard of 520 micron wear scar diesel fuel. Bosch tests and builds in Germany on fuel that's B7 and closer to 250 to 280 micron wear scar diesel fuel.

Moral of the story? Make sure, from day one on your diesel, that you run 1 to 2% biodiesel, minimum, for at least the first 2 to 3000 miles for good break in /run in on your diesel Bosch HPFP powered vehicle. Get that wear scar down to 250 to 280 micron from your diesel fuel.

It's also my belief that hammer heads in diesels, cowboys, and in general idiots that think that diesels are OK to run at full throttle, and especially the tuner boys, deserve what they get... this pump is indeed fragile, it will fail a lot sooner, rather than later, from the above type of gross abuse. This is a pump that needs to be babied. Roll your foot into the throttle, don't ever mash it, like you would on a gasser. Smooth driving makes them last a long long time, idiots with lead feet and twitchy big toes doing constant throttle input changes will pay dearly for their poor driving habits.

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

NinerBikes wrote:

ricatic wrote:
I'd like to know where the rust was on the part(s)...Was the area in question in the fuel stream or a mating surface on the pump?...and the Blue Koolaid crowd can support the crooked Blue Oval but they can not avoid the following truth...

There are several manufacturers using the Bosch CP4.xx series HPFP...Ford, GM, Mercedes, Porshe and VW to name a few...all but one manufacturer fixes these POS pump failures, no questions asked,under warranty...only the BLUE Oval has decided to"not repair under warranty" their HPFP failures...this is not hate...it's just the facts...

Regards

Actually, this is not quite true... unscrupolous VW dealerships have tried to screw female TDI owners over with full tab repairs to 9 or $10,000, but an Online complaint form filled out by the gals, and advising the service manager that a complaint has been filed with NHTSA, and that they should be hearing from VW corporate shortly usually dashes their full tab charged expectations.

When you own a Bosch HPFP powered diesel, you need to be smarter and more knowledgeable about them than the service manager you're dealing with, and the technician trying to pull a fast one.

VW likes to use the term "Your fuel is contaminated". This likely puts the onus on you, the owner, for doing something wrong. That's also quite incorrect.

That's speak for " our cheap Bosch aluminum bored CP4.x series pump with a steel piston just grenaded and it contaminated your whole fuel system."

They will find metal in the fuel pressure sensor chamber, metal shards and filings, that fill up a sieve, block fuel passage, and causes your whole fuel system to blow a P0087 "low fuel pressure in fuel system" code.

Ask the mechanic, when the metal shows up, where it all came from, when there's a 2 or 4 micron fuel filter just upstream of the HPFP that would filter all that cr*p out. The pump ate it self up, turned into a machine shop and all the metal filings, aluminum, clogged things up. hence the low fuel rail pressure.

Ask them to pull a fuel sample, test it by a lab, and prove the contamination... also, always, always, always save your diesel fuel receipts... if it comes back that the fuel is bad, the station your last purchase was from is going to be having a hell of a lot of repair bills, if indeed, their fuel was contaminated.

What the????
V dub did "try" to screw the consumer just as Ricatic said. NHTSA is a unick agency. Just look at the 6.0 debacle. They did nothing. Good money says they will do nothing with the multi million $ CP4 problem.

With the updated CP4 pump it will all be forgotten except for the people that paid 12K+ to fix their trucks.

I would laugh at you if I owned a station and you said my fuel caused a problem and you kept your receipt. A receipt proves nothing and a first year lawyer could get that point across. Just because you bought fuel from me proves nothing.

What it proves is that you bought diesel in good faith... as labeled on the pump... it eliminates the VW weasels from claiming that you put gasoline in your diesel fuel tank and that that's what killed your HPFP.

Based on all the cases I have looked at and studied on TDIclub for fuel used, I note a correlation between Shell diesel fuel being used by the consumer and HPFP's failing as being higher than with any other brand of diesel fuel. Do your own statistical searching there under "official HPFP failure" thread, and make your own conclusions.

My neighbor was a warranty audit engineer for VW for 5 years. He is very familiar with the official VW policy on CP4.xx warranty coverage. He has clearly stated several times to me when discussing the Bosch pump that VW was forced to take the position that all pumps are warranty...as I mentioned before...it was either that or a complete recall...He said VW was not happy but could not fight it further...

Evidently that Sauerkraut koolaid is not as strong as the Blue Stuff...

Regards

NinerBikes wrote:

ricatic wrote:
I'd like to know where the rust was on the part(s)...Was the area in question in the fuel stream or a mating surface on the pump?...and the Blue Koolaid crowd can support the crooked Blue Oval but they can not avoid the following truth...

There are several manufacturers using the Bosch CP4.xx series HPFP...Ford, GM, Mercedes, Porshe and VW to name a few...all but one manufacturer fixes these POS pump failures, no questions asked,under warranty...only the BLUE Oval has decided to"not repair under warranty" their HPFP failures...this is not hate...it's just the facts...

Regards

Actually, this is not quite true... unscrupolous VW dealerships have tried to screw female TDI owners over with full tab repairs to 9 or $10,000, but an Online complaint form filled out by the gals, and advising the service manager that a complaint has been filed with NHTSA, and that they should be hearing from VW corporate shortly usually dashes their full tab charged expectations.

When you own a Bosch HPFP powered diesel, you need to be smarter and more knowledgeable about them than the service manager you're dealing with, and the technician trying to pull a fast one.

VW likes to use the term "Your fuel is contaminated". This likely puts the onus on you, the owner, for doing something wrong. That's also quite incorrect.

That's speak for " our cheap Bosch aluminum bored CP4.x series pump with a steel piston just grenaded and it contaminated your whole fuel system."

They will find metal in the fuel pressure sensor chamber, metal shards and filings, that fill up a sieve, block fuel passage, and causes your whole fuel system to blow a P0087 "low fuel pressure in fuel system" code.

Ask the mechanic, when the metal shows up, where it all came from, when there's a 2 or 4 micron fuel filter just upstream of the HPFP that would filter all that cr*p out. The pump ate it self up, turned into a machine shop and all the metal filings, aluminum, clogged things up. hence the low fuel rail pressure.

Ask them to pull a fuel sample, test it by a lab, and prove the contamination... also, always, always, always save your diesel fuel receipts... if it comes back that the fuel is bad, the station your last purchase was from is going to be having a hell of a lot of repair bills, if indeed, their fuel was contaminated.

What the????
V dub did "try" to screw the consumer just as Ricatic said. NHTSA is a unick agency. Just look at the 6.0 debacle. They did nothing. Good money says they will do nothing with the multi million $ CP4 problem.

With the updated CP4 pump it will all be forgotten except for the people that paid 12K+ to fix their trucks.

I would laugh at you if I owned a station and you said my fuel caused a problem and you kept your receipt. A receipt proves nothing and a first year lawyer could get that point across. Just because you bought fuel from me proves nothing.

NinerBikes wrote:

daily double wrote:
Ford will NOT cover any water in the fuel on their diesels! I don't care if you have all the documentation in the world, Ford will not pay! They will admit there is water in all diesel fuel, but the bottom line is still the same. They even admitted to me that their warning system (water in fuel light) is not perfect. I just paid $10,216 .00 to find all this information!

The issue is the Bosch CP 4.X pumps... running 2000 bar and Bosch piezo injectors. The pump fails. IMHO, if you ever opened a Bosch CP4.1 or 4.2 pupm up that has failed, you'd see a design flaw with a cam driven piston with a tiny roller underneath it, the whole piston assembly is unretained... it can float at high speed, it will lose alignment and spin in the bore at high speed, losing contact with the cam, and this can be when the damage starts occurring.

IMHO, the design is defective, it's subject to heat from high pressure, lubricity issues from low lubricity fuel, and driving a steel piston in an aluminum bore.

I don't care if you agree with me or disgree with me, the failure rate is in excess of 5% within 5 years... I don't think that at 2000 bar pressure, it's a matter of if it will fail within 200k miles, it's a matter of when.

I do have a dog in this hunt, I own nothing but VW diesel common rails, two of them have the same Bosch CP4.2 pump in them, in v6 motors. The other one is the CP4.1 in an inline 4 cylinder.

Do yourself a favor, if you have a HPFP failure... please file a complaint form with NHTSA before you tow your truck in to the dealership to fix it.

NHTSA online complaint form

Once NHTSA has contacted you back, let them know which dealership is handling your warranty claim, and the name of the service manager. Let them know you have a Bosch CP4.2 High Pressure Fuel Pump that failed, and that you've looked on line, and that the product appears to have a defect in design, as observed in EA11003, which shares the same HPFP family of Bosch pumps.

That should get the gears turning at fomoco to get things covered by warranty by Ford, with a preemptive strike.

Anyone with a Bosch CP4.1 or CP4.2 family pump should file a complaint with NHTSA... know your fuel system parts and families under the hood of your tow vehicle.

Great post NB! And spot on!

ricatic wrote:
I'd like to know where the rust was on the part(s)...Was the area in question in the fuel stream or a mating surface on the pump?...and the Blue Koolaid crowd can support the crooked Blue Oval but they can not avoid the following truth...

There are several manufacturers using the Bosch CP4.xx series HPFP...Ford, GM, Mercedes, Porshe and VW to name a few...all but one manufacturer fixes these POS pump failures, no questions asked,under warranty...only the BLUE Oval has decided to"not repair under warranty" their HPFP failures...this is not hate...it's just the facts...

Regards

Actually, this is not quite true... unscrupolous VW dealerships have tried to screw female TDI owners over with full tab repairs to 9 or $10,000, but an Online complaint form filled out by the gals, and advising the service manager that a complaint has been filed with NHTSA, and that they should be hearing from VW corporate shortly usually dashes their full tab charged expectations.

When you own a Bosch HPFP powered diesel, you need to be smarter and more knowledgeable about them than the service manager you're dealing with, and the technician trying to pull a fast one.

VW likes to use the term "Your fuel is contaminated". This likely puts the onus on you, the owner, for doing something wrong. That's also quite incorrect.

That's speak for " our cheap Bosch aluminum bored CP4.x series pump with a steel piston just grenaded and it contaminated your whole fuel system."

They will find metal in the fuel pressure sensor chamber, metal shards and filings, that fill up a sieve, block fuel passage, and causes your whole fuel system to blow a P0087 "low fuel pressure in fuel system" code.

Ask the mechanic, when the metal shows up, where it all came from, when there's a 2 or 4 micron fuel filter just upstream of the HPFP that would filter all that cr*p out. The pump ate it self up, turned into a machine shop and all the metal filings, aluminum, clogged things up. hence the low fuel rail pressure.

Ask them to pull a fuel sample, test it by a lab, and prove the contamination... also, always, always, always save your diesel fuel receipts... if it comes back that the fuel is bad, the station your last purchase was from is going to be having a hell of a lot of repair bills, if indeed, their fuel was contaminated.

daily double wrote:
Ford will NOT cover any water in the fuel on their diesels! I don't care if you have all the documentation in the world, Ford will not pay! They will admit there is water in all diesel fuel, but the bottom line is still the same. They even admitted to me that their warning system (water in fuel light) is not perfect. I just paid $10,216 .00 to find all this information!

The issue is the Bosch CP 4.X pumps... running 2000 bar and Bosch piezo injectors. The pump fails. IMHO, if you ever opened a Bosch CP4.1 or 4.2 pupm up that has failed, you'd see a design flaw with a cam driven piston with a tiny roller underneath it, the whole piston assembly is unretained... it can float at high speed, it will lose alignment and spin in the bore at high speed, losing contact with the cam, and this can be when the damage starts occurring.

IMHO, the design is defective, it's subject to heat from high pressure, lubricity issues from low lubricity fuel, and driving a steel piston in an aluminum bore.

I don't care if you agree with me or disgree with me, the failure rate is in excess of 5% within 5 years... I don't think that at 2000 bar pressure, it's a matter of if it will fail within 200k miles, it's a matter of when.

I do have a dog in this hunt, I own nothing but VW diesel common rails, two of them have the same Bosch CP4.2 pump in them, in v6 motors. The other one is the CP4.1 in an inline 4 cylinder.

Do yourself a favor, if you have a HPFP failure... please file a complaint form with NHTSA before you tow your truck in to the dealership to fix it.

NHTSA online complaint form

Once NHTSA has contacted you back, let them know which dealership is handling your warranty claim, and the name of the service manager. Let them know you have a Bosch CP4.2 High Pressure Fuel Pump that failed, and that you've looked on line, and that the product appears to have a defect in design, as observed in EA11003, which shares the same HPFP family of Bosch pumps.

That should get the gears turning at fomoco to get things covered by warranty by Ford, with a preemptive strike.

Anyone with a Bosch CP4.1 or CP4.2 family pump should file a complaint with NHTSA... know your fuel system parts and families under the hood of your tow vehicle.

daily double wrote:
Once and for all time, the rust was on the mating surfaces in the pump. The water warning light never came on. Ford admitted to me that all diesel fuel has water. Ford also admitted their water separation/water warning system is not foolproof. They are also adamant that Ford will not pay for water in the fuel system problems.

The solenoid valve controller mounts into the HPFP...there are two surfaces...the mating surface which never sees fuel flow and the similar looking solenoid which is directly in the fuel stream...was the business end of this valve showing rust...if so, water sat in the pump...if not...you got really got screwed by Ford...

Troy is right about the dishonest by choice or dishonest by ignorance of diagnostics Ford dealers. The very part that was used to deny my warranty was the second parts throwing replacement attempt by the crooked dealer to fix the problem...that's when the trouble started...two repairs...no success and no warranty reimbursement to the crooked dealer...

Now before the Blue Koolaid Bunch jumps in here with the same BS as always: it was the dealer that screwed you not FOMOCO, Ford was the ultimate arbiter...and they failed to take care of the very person that keeps them in business "The Customer"...and the Shameful Behavior continues...

Regards

Once and for all time, the rust was on the mating surfaces in the pump. The water warning light never came on. Ford admitted to me that all diesel fuel has water. Ford also admitted their water separation/water warning system is not foolproof. They are also adamant that Ford will not pay for water in the fuel system problems.