Warranty issue. In need of advice please.

likesadvice wrote:
...On Saturday I was on my back, in the snow, measuring the distances between the middle spring hanger and the rear hangers. I should have been measuring the distance between front spring hanger and the rear spring hanger....

I would be measuring from the coupler to the tip of the spindle.

John - The technician painted everything up pretty thick making it impossible to see where the hanger was originally mounted. He told the service manager, "it appeared whomever welded the frame measured from the edge of the spring hanger, not the hole center". This leads me to assume the spring hanger needed to be moved closer to the front.

The first tire to wear, the door side rear, was wearing on the outside edge.

I'm also concerned about alignment. Do you think it possible the wear on the front axle tires came from fighting with a rear axle that wasn't aligned with the front?

I do need to have the alignment checked. Some of what you are saying is starting to sink in. On Saturday I was on my back, in the snow, measuring the distances between the middle spring hanger and the rear hangers. I should have been measuring the distance between front spring hanger and the rear spring hanger.

Thanks again, John. You are the resident running gear expert!

Hi again, H'mm something is not adding up.

likesadvice wrote:

John - The Lippert service technician moved the slide side rear spring hanger.

The TT didn't seem to dog track or shake at all. It was crazy quite for how much the tires were scrubbing.

By chance do you know if he moved it towards the front of the trailer or towards the back?

likesadvice wrote:


The first tire to show excessive wear was the door side rear. I replaced this tire with a new bias ply.

The next tire to show excessive wear was the slide side front. I replaced this tire with my spare.

The next tire to show excessive wear was the door side front. At this point I'd had enough.

The front 2 hangers create the position of the front axle in relation to the tow ball. (thrust angle)

The rear 2 hangers create the position of the rear axle in relation to the front axle.

The center hanger does not affect alignment as much

The first worst tire to go was on the rear axle. This makes sense if he moved a rear hanger. But need to know which way he moved it and which way the heavy wear was from (the inside of the tire wearing towards the outside (excessive toe in) or the outside of the tire wearing towards the inside(excessive toe out)

While the rear hanger can explain the rear axle tires wearing wrong, I have not yet connected the dots on why the fronts are wearing so bad. That is unless the front is not true to the tow ball. While the hangers may be in a pattern correctly to each other with the one hanger move, that does not mean the front axle is true to the tow ball.

Again back to, what does an alignment report declare? That will prove out everything which is good or not.

Hope they do good by you. Bottom line, this is very fixable. While I can understand Winnebago did not make the frame/running gear, they bought it, it was their sub-supplier that is creating a bad rap on the camper brand name. In this situation, the TT manufacture needs to put a QA check in place to confrim the trailer frame and running gear they bought and are selling to you the customer meet spec. They could easily refuse payment to the frame supplier until the problem was corrected before they ever put a camper on top of an out of spec frame.

After my saga if I ever buy a new camper again, a condition of the sale is an axle alignment proving the system meets or exceeds Dexters spec for correct running gear alignment. It is not rocket science, it just needs to be right.

John

Since they all seem to be dodging responsibility, suggest you try writing a letter cc all of them - dealer, manufacturer, Lippert. Explain that you feel you are getting the run-around and only want it fixed as it should have been in the beginning. You might mention that this has been thoroughly discussed on RVNet and this is the recommendation. Be respectful (even if you don't feel like it), ask them to step up and do what's right and that you feel that since their product caused you to buy new tires that it's only right that they reimburse you. Respectful, but firm. Don't know if it'll work, but couldn't hurt. BTW, keep every copy of anything related to this until it's resolved.

Myredracer - Thanks for the advice. My dealership service manager mentioned asking my salesman to contact the Winnebago rep and ask for a little help. I need to follow up with that proposal.

John - The Lippert service technician moved the slide side rear spring hanger.

The TT didn't seem to dog track or shake at all. It was crazy quite for how much the tires were scrubbing.

I kept air pressure at cold max. I was hoping by doing so the tires would wear more evenly instead of just the edges.

I have a reese weight distribution hitch with the anti-sway bars and pull with a Tundra.

The white knuckling was from concern of a blow out while my wife and kids were along in the vehicle.

The service manager and I discussed the Lippert technicians explanation of why the spring hanger was welded in the wrong position. We both were surprised Lippert doesn't use a jig when building frames. I don't know how many times I've measured twice and cut once, only to find I had screwed up and have to start over.

likesadvice wrote:


John -

The first tire to show excessive wear was the door side rear. I replaced this tire with a new bias ply.

The next tire to show excessive wear was the slide side front. I replaced this tire with my spare.

The next tire to show excessive wear was the door side front. At this point I'd had enough. I couldn't drive the interstates in the North Dakota oil patch with another tire having the tread wore off one side. All tires were showing some irregular wear. I wasn't about to put on another bias ply. I had the tire shop put on 4 new steel belted radials and kept the first purchased bias ply as a spare.

The technician said the manufacturer made a mistake and improperly measured the placement for the spring hanger from the edge of the next spring hanger, rather than measuring from the previous spring hangers center hole.

I'm not signing anything until the alignment is checked. Thanks for the help.

Hi likesadvice,

Thanks for the good words in your other reply. Hopefully my learning experience on messed up trailer running gear alignment can help someone....

Did you by chance know which hanger the tech moved? And did he move more than one?

Your description on tire wear and that the tech had to move a hanger, points to the thrust angle of the front axle being wrong. And then the rear axle not parallel to the front.

In the day of mass production welded fabrication, it makes the most sense the hangers are placed in a weld jig to hold location and they use the bolt hole to create all 6 hangers in the correct relationship to each other. Then create the correct relationship to the tow ball before tach welding the hangers in location to later full weld out.

However that is me thinking how I would do it, not necessarily how your frame builder does it. My goodness, if they are measuring every hanger to be in location and tweaking, the room for error can go up big time. That said, my hangers where welded on wrong too. They could not have been using a jig or if they did, it had human error in the middle of it. And this is no QC to check the final outcome before shipping.

A few things to note.

You started out with bias tires, had extreme wear. Then changed to radials and you reported a white knuckle experience, Did the bias tires have the white knuckle experience too?

With the front axle being way off in relation to the tow ball (out of square to the centerline of the trailer,) the camper can do what they call "dog tracking". The trailer is not puling straight true behind the truck, it is pulling on an angle as the front axle is steering to the left or right. When you switched to radials, the side walls of the tire may have had more flex then the bias. That flex in this dog tracking condition I can see it creating a tail wagging experience.

My camper did not dog track, but I was also using a Reese DC as my anti-sway control and I have a 1 ton truck as a TV, so the heavier truck and hitch is more rigid and possibly mine was not out as bad as yours. This may have helped hold the trailer more central but the thrust angle being wrong just plain scrubbed off tire wear at an accelerated rate.

Did you have the TT tires aired up to may side wall cold pressure? This should be done even with good alignment. If the tires are down in air, and the trailer dog tracking, the softer tire for sure could aggravate a white knuckle ride

Hope this helps

John

likesadvice wrote:

So far, the buck has been passed a lot. The dealer keeps encouraging me to talk with the TT manufacturer. The TT manufacturer tells me the dealer should be taking care of everything, yet, they aren't responsible for the frame as that manufacturer has their own warranty. It doesn't help that I bought from a dealer 3 hours away.

As John mentioned above, frame problems happen more than people think and range from minor to serious. It's pretty sad that a dealer and TT manufacturer won't go to bat for you on a fairly new TT still under warranty. Unfortunately there is one frame manufacturer that is on the vast majority of TTs made today and I'm not surprised to hear of this problem as similar problems happen on other brands.

I'd try sending a letter or email c/w photos to the plant outlining the problems, the concerns and what you'd like to see happen and copy it to the dealer. You should have a documented "paper" trail for record purposes anyway on this. I don't know what level person you were contacting at the plant, but I would try and find someone much senior and with authority at the plant, otherwise you may not get past the "front desk." Be persistent. If you go to an RV show, if you are lucky you might be able to find a rep. there that you can chat to and ask who to contact at the plant. I wouldn't trust what the dealer may be telling you either.

The way the TT world works is ridiculous. It's common to get brushed off and told to talk directly to a frame manufacturer (BTDT) and fight it out with them. A frame manufacturer will typically try to blame an owner but in this case, it was built improperly and I don't see why the related expenses wouldn't be re-imbursed.

Have you made inquiries over on the Forest River forum? Lots of knowledgeable folks and Minnie owners there. There's also Trailer Life's complaint section that might be able to help.

Galvanizd wrote:
Gee, ask a question and get an English lesson to boot. I would have preferred an opinion, answer..........or no response. Wow.

I agree about checking to make sure the "fix" was done correctly.

I would work with your dealer and submit a claim with all receipts related and ask for reimbursement. Ask for what's reasonable. Pain and suffering may not include a dollar figure but it might be good towards some concessions in the parts and service departments in the form of discounts. If you find you aren't getting much attention there, most manufactures have a customer service. A letter detailing your experiences followed up by a phone call and finding a sympathetic ear . Reasonable requests towards customer service are hard to ignore. A lot of those manufactures have people that read these forums and they know we talk to a bunch of other RV. People who are planning on buying in the near future (like.......me)

By the way what is the name of this manufacture?

My TT is a Minnie 2451bhs by Winnebago.

The dealer, Pleasureland RV of Ramsey, Minnesota has been both good and bad to deal with. Pleasureland has many stores. I live a 3 hour drive from the store where I purchased the TT. I attempted to bring it a closer location but was denied because that store didn't want to deal with the probable frame issues. Communication with the dealer has been slow at times, and as stated earlier the service manager has given me phone numbers to the manufacturers and suggested I call them.

I did make contact with Winnebago customer service. While the person I talked to was very polite, she reiterated the dealer should be taking care of all my needs. I was also told the frame and axles warranty was a separate warranty through the manufacturer, Lippert Components. In my second email to Winnebago I relayed the facts and some of the frustration my family endured during our trip. Winnebago's response was a polite email stating Lippert would have to take care of it and had a SPAM heading on top of them email. I'm guessing the customer service person marked my email account as spam to prevent further contact.

We really do like this camper. The styling and quality of the trailer have really impressed us, with exception of the frame.

Our family trip from Minnesota to the Grand Canyon is already in the planning for next summer. I hope I won't have to budget tires and map out tire shops on the route.

John - I read your link on the axle alignment and install. Wow, did I learn a lot! If my kids study hard in school, maybe they will turn out as smart as you!

Gee, ask a question and get an English lesson to boot. I would have preferred an opinion, answer..........or no response. Wow.

I agree about checking to make sure the "fix" was done correctly.

I would work with your dealer and submit a claim with all receipts related and ask for reimbursement. Ask for what's reasonable. Pain and suffering may not include a dollar figure but it might be good towards some concessions in the parts and service departments in the form of discounts. If you find you aren't getting much attention there, most manufactures have a customer service. A letter detailing your experiences followed up by a phone call and finding a sympathetic ear . Reasonable requests towards customer service are hard to ignore. A lot of those manufactures have people that read these forums and they know we talk to a bunch of other RV. People who are planning on buying in the near future (like.......me)

By the way what is the name of this manufacture?