You have 13 yrs 11 mths left to buy a GM gas or dsl vehicle

Reisender wrote:

valhalla360 wrote:

time2roll wrote:
People are going to love them. Could break the marginal dealers as the service revenue will taper off to about nothing.

More likely, the price of cars goes up as a result.

No dealers can make a go of it purely on new car sales. This isn't limited to "marginal" dealers.

Plus if you look at vehicle maintenance, actual major engine repair is pretty rare. Tire, Brakes, Suspension, Oil Changes are the bulk of the work. Other than possibly a brakes, those all will be present in EVs. Plus with EVs having a very heavy battery bank, suspensions will need to be beefed up and more expensive.

Oil changes will not be present on EV’s. We had our first EV for 5 years. We added washer fluid half a dozen times. Just before I sold it I put a new 12 volt battery in it because I knew it was coming due and I didn’t want the older couple to have any issues with it. If I remember correctly around 125 bucks. EV’s are drive and forget.

Sorry mistyped and left out the oil change...$25 once, twice a year on a $40,000 car...doesn't move the needle in terms of cost.

EVs, ICE, whatever, they are all pretty much drive and forget. Haven't had any major engine work since....I think is was 30yrs ago I had a timing gear failure on a 1986 S-15. Sure, there are exceptions but I've also heard of failures with EV drivetrains. In either case they are very rare unless you do something stupid.

SPRey wrote:
What if--

What if all vehicles are electric (requiring the power grid to be charged) and all ICE cars outlawed.
What if all gas/diesel fuels are also outlawed (Paris Accord/Green New Deal/Great Reset Initiative/Davos 2021).
What if our electronic infrastructure is disrupted by the sun (solar storm) or from an attack from an enemy (China/Russia/North Korea/Iran)?

No electricity, no electronic infrastructure, no power to recharge our battery powered devices/vehicles.

And I hear the howls, "Oh, come on man! This can't happen...man made blackouts are temporary and can be fixed."

Not so for Electromagnetic Pulse effect from solar storms, geomagnetic reversal and we have man made--the EMP weapons China and Russia are/have developed.

To counter US' repeated trespasses into Chinese territorial waters, the Chinese military has the option of using new approaches, including the deployment of electromagnetic weapons, Song Zhongping, a Chinese military expert and commentator, told the Global Times on Tuesday.
https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1182886.shtml

DuckDuckGo/Google this search term: "EMP" "Pearl Harbor"
and select your favorite "biased" news source.

Is any government/global power capable of handling an EMP crises? As evidenced with COVID-19, IMO the answer is no. For decades western governments have spent billions of dollars preparing for biological warfare and civil defense protection/recovery--from threats with mortality rates of over 90% (anthrax, genetically modified organisms, etc). But when challenged with COVID-19 with a teensy weensy >1% mortality rate--we are greeted with global incompetence. All hat, no cowboy. They all over promised and under delivered.

Methinks the old style ICE engines (the ones without CPUs) will be in great demand in post EMP world. Should have kept my old '68 VW bug, packed it in grease and buried it in my backyard.

And for those that like to read, download this http://www.firstempcommission.org/uploads/1/1/9/5/119571849/foreign_views_of_emp_attack_by_peter_pry_july_2017.pdf

What if as part of the transition to the new electric economy most every home and business had solar and battery? A new grid based upon a collection of mini grids. If part fails the rest continues, many are individually self sufficient with some conservation.

Otherwise all the same issues with destruction of oil production and refining.

With the central generating plants we have now the grid is actually more susceptible to disruption. The solar - wind - battery grid actually is more secure.

Disruption is tough for those that are made obsolete and they will fight it all the way. Economics favors more solar and wind so it will be coming like it or not.

SPRey wrote:
What if--

...snip....
What if our electronic infrastructure is disrupted by the sun (solar storm) or from an attack from an enemy (China/Russia/North Korea/Iran)?

No electricity, no electronic infrastructure, no power to recharge our battery powered devices/vehicles.

....snip....

....

You are disregarding that such a shutdown would knock out all fueling stations of all kinds. Too horrible to imagine, but using fossil fuels is not going to help. Folks with guns would be coming after our five gallon fuel cans.

Reisender wrote:

gbopp wrote:
I can't wait to see the plans to convert the Boeing B-52 to electric engines. :E

General Motors owns Boeing?

I didn't say GM owns Boeing. I just made a sarcastic remark. :)

Sorry, but this thread has gotten way beyond stupid. We have a very few engineers here who know the real pluses and minuses of electric vehicles, and the grid necessary to power then and then we have the vast majority of those who've drunk the cool aid and listen with fervent belief to the PR hacks, stock sellers and the idiot politicians. That's those who believe the PR releases and believe the highly intelligent and well thought out pronouncements by those thinking to squeeze another billion dollars from the unknowing taxpayers to promote their political agenda and topic of the day.

Enjoy. . . I'm out of here.

This has been an interesting read. It has covered everything from a to z and has managed to get everyone all riled up. This is not going to happen overnight and the market will have a lot to do with everything. NO, they are not going to do away with ICE tow vehicles, at least not right away. Just read in my morning paper about the new F150 hybrid engine. The "hybrid" is not a pure electrical engine and does not need recharging. It still runs on gasoline, but a lot less. It is not limited by the length of a trip like an EV is.

I like the concept of EVs although they would fit well with a portion of consumers, but not all of them. Perhaps, with time, the kinks will be figured out and an EV could be in most garages. I am not worried or threatened by the vision of GM. I applaud their willingness to take a chance. It will serve us all well down the road. I owned a prius and it was fantastic for dependability and economy. Built too low to the ground and was terrible in the snow. I now have a RAV4 hybrid. I am getting about 36mpg during the winter and look forward to comparing this to summer trips.

Back to the market. People want more efficient vehicles. EV's are the best in that regard but do need recharging. The infrastructure is not built yet to support these. In comes a company who wants to "meet the needs of the market" so they invent and install a diesel fed generating station to charge a battery to help save the environment. Ah, such is the power of the market. This is what we will get....

valhalla360 wrote:
Very easy to put out press releases that won't be enforced until current management will be long gone and the new management can change them to meet real conditions.

GM was already planning this before the Biden adminn announced it.
https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2020/nov/1119-electric-portfolio.html

What if--

What if all vehicles are electric (requiring the power grid to be charged) and all ICE cars outlawed.
What if all gas/diesel fuels are also outlawed (Paris Accord/Green New Deal/Great Reset Initiative/Davos 2021).
What if our electronic infrastructure is disrupted by the sun (solar storm) or from an attack from an enemy (China/Russia/North Korea/Iran)?

No electricity, no electronic infrastructure, no power to recharge our battery powered devices/vehicles.

And I hear the howls, "Oh, come on man! This can't happen...man made blackouts are temporary and can be fixed."

Not so for Electromagnetic Pulse effect from solar storms, geomagnetic reversal and we have man made--the EMP weapons China and Russia are/have developed.

To counter US' repeated trespasses into Chinese territorial waters, the Chinese military has the option of using new approaches, including the deployment of electromagnetic weapons, Song Zhongping, a Chinese military expert and commentator, told the Global Times on Tuesday.
https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1182886.shtml

DuckDuckGo/Google this search term: "EMP" "Pearl Harbor"
and select your favorite "biased" news source.

Is any government/global power capable of handling an EMP crises? As evidenced with COVID-19, IMO the answer is no. For decades western governments have spent billions of dollars preparing for biological warfare and civil defense protection/recovery--from threats with mortality rates of over 90% (anthrax, genetically modified organisms, etc). But when challenged with COVID-19 with a teensy weensy >1% mortality rate--we are greeted with global incompetence. All hat, no cowboy. They all over promised and under delivered.

Methinks the old style ICE engines (the ones without CPUs) will be in great demand in post EMP world. Should have kept my old '68 VW bug, packed it in grease and buried it in my backyard.

And for those that like to read, download this http://www.firstempcommission.org/uploads/1/1/9/5/119571849/foreign_views_of_emp_attack_by_peter_pry_july_2017.pdf

IdaD wrote:

Reisender wrote:

Bumpyroad wrote:

Reisender wrote:

spoon059 wrote:
Certainly interesting for sure. Lots of things to consider though...
Where is the power coming from? Clean renewable energy is great to hope for, but unrealistic to power the entire world. Maybe PV tech will make leaps and bounds.
How are we storing excess power? Manufacturing of batteries is a high cost, financially and in resources and waste. Tesla has greatly improved batteries, but my yearly 200 mile round trip to Florida would require a LOT of battery charging or swapping.
COST? New technology is expensive. You need significant buy-in to bring the price down per vehicle. This being GM, and with Biden's federal fleet program, I'm sure that our tax dollars will be spent subsidizing this program, but at what cost?

Again, interesting idea and I'm hopeful for new innovations. I always wonder why we don't have more technology like our trains are doing with diesel electric engines.

Did you mean 2000 mile round trip? A 200 mile round trip can be fine by pretty much every EV on the North American market with no charging. Typo?

I would like to know of that shortcut to get from DC to florida in 100 miles. the same math is being used in these fanciful dreaming ideas.
bumpy

Well, I don’t know the geography of the US much. But if it’s a typo and it’s supposed to be a 2000 mile return trip that is 1000 miles each way. So probably two days there and two days back. So no sweat for the most commonly sold EV’s today. Take a 20 minute lunch break at a supercharger and you are good to go. We do that kind of sceenario. We stay at a hotel with destination chargers. Leave full in the morning. Too easy.

Out west a 1000 mile trip is often a 1 day deal, we've done it a bunch even with young children and towing. That's not doable with an EV, towing or not.

1000 miles is totally doable in an EV. That’s like 1600 km. Why wouldn’t it be. That’s like an17 or18 hour road trip. You are going to take breaks. Just charge on your breaks. A mile road trip doesn’t take us any longer in our Tesla than our old Jeep Grand Cherokee. I can’t imagine ever travelling 1600 km in one day but it wouldn’t be a problem.

Reisender wrote:

Bumpyroad wrote:

Reisender wrote:

spoon059 wrote:
Certainly interesting for sure. Lots of things to consider though...
Where is the power coming from? Clean renewable energy is great to hope for, but unrealistic to power the entire world. Maybe PV tech will make leaps and bounds.
How are we storing excess power? Manufacturing of batteries is a high cost, financially and in resources and waste. Tesla has greatly improved batteries, but my yearly 200 mile round trip to Florida would require a LOT of battery charging or swapping.
COST? New technology is expensive. You need significant buy-in to bring the price down per vehicle. This being GM, and with Biden's federal fleet program, I'm sure that our tax dollars will be spent subsidizing this program, but at what cost?

Again, interesting idea and I'm hopeful for new innovations. I always wonder why we don't have more technology like our trains are doing with diesel electric engines.

Did you mean 2000 mile round trip? A 200 mile round trip can be fine by pretty much every EV on the North American market with no charging. Typo?

I would like to know of that shortcut to get from DC to florida in 100 miles. the same math is being used in these fanciful dreaming ideas.
bumpy

Well, I don’t know the geography of the US much. But if it’s a typo and it’s supposed to be a 2000 mile return trip that is 1000 miles each way. So probably two days there and two days back. So no sweat for the most commonly sold EV’s today. Take a 20 minute lunch break at a supercharger and you are good to go. We do that kind of sceenario. We stay at a hotel with destination chargers. Leave full in the morning. Too easy.

Out west a 1000 mile trip is often a 1 day deal, we've done it a bunch even with young children and towing. That's not doable with an EV, towing or not.