Hello –Could you please help me understand the variables better?Tow Vehicle = 2015 Ford Expedition 4x4 with: 1. 7,500 LB GVWR, 2. 3,550 LB Front GAWR, 3. 4,300 LB Rear GAWR, and 4. Max occupants + cargo of 1,347 LB.According to manual, max tongue weight = 600 LB weight-carrying and 920 LB weight-distributing. Max trailer weight = 6,000 LB weight-carrying and 9,200 LB weight-distributing.I am towing a Funfinder 189FDS. According to CAT Scale, 1. Expedition by itself was 6,060 LB, 2. Expedition front axle when hitched to trailer was 2,640 LB 3. Expedition rear axle when hitched to trailer was 4,200 LB 4. Trailer by itself was 4,260 LB (loaded for camping with fresh water full), 5. Tongue weight was 780 LB. I did not have any weight-distribution at that time.I got the Expedition thinking that I should be able to tow a 4,500± LB trailer with no problem and that I wouldn’t need to mess with weight-distribution.I’m a little surprised to have a 780 LB tongue weight on a 4,500 LB trailer, but that is what it measured. My initial questions are: 1. Based on the facts above, must I use weight-distribution? 2. Is it possible to reduce the tongue weight by loading the back of the trailer with more weight? I am planning to put on a trailer receiver that may carry 300-400 LB of cargo. Is it likely I can get the tongue weight down to 600 LB? 3. What determines the 600 LB tongue weight in the manual? Is this the strength of the metal that comprises the hitch? Is it to help to not exceed the 4,300 LB Rear GAWR?In addition to the questions above, I noticed more bow push than I expected when driving on the freeway. The biggest impact was when I was loaded with fresh water and there were 15-20 mph winds. I was traveling at 65 mph and when a semi or bus would go by, there would be a pretty good push and sway. I noticed it more when they would pass going maybe 10-15 mph faster than I was.On my return trip, the winds were lower and the fresh water was empty and my tongue weight was about 50 LB lighter than the initial 780 LB. I didn't experience as much bow wave push. 1. Would any part of my setup contribute to the bow wave push? 2. Would weight distribution reduce it?Thank you.

Your posted weights alone tell you that you need weight distribution. Your experience has told you the same, plus it has told you that you need sway control. If you put more weight to the rear, your sway problem is only going to get worse.Bruce

Having towed with an Expedition in the past, with exactly the same trailer weights you are posting....Yes, you need weight distribution AND sway control.Keep in mind that the Expy has a short wheel base and "P" rated tires. Both are not optimal for stability.

Hi fugawi,Welcome to the world of towing a camper and figuring out all the variables. You have a "lot" of really good data to start with. Now figuring out what it means. I had some time this morning so I'll type and try to explain as you work to sort this out in your head. Good for you doing this. The rewards of better towing will come from it. Yes, you need and want a WD hitch. Ideally you get one with integrated anti sway control. Your loaded tongue weight is over the rating of the receiver. The fine print in Fords owner manual tells you need one. In their eyes, it is a "must". This is really not a good place to be, over their rating. If there is ever an accident even if you did not cause it, someone drilling into the details can find you at fault of being negligent as you are the driver. While this is not gospel, you really do not want to be in this situation. http://www.dangeroustrailers.org/Towing_The_LIne.html 3. What determines the 600 LB tongue weight in the manual? Is this the strength of the metal that comprises the hitch? Is it to help to not exceed the 4,300 LB Rear GAWR?\In this case Ford did not tell us or you what the weak link is. Many times the ratings on SUV's are driven by what the rear axle can handle and stay inside it's rating on an "empty" truck. Why put a receiver with more ability then the truck can handle? When you are not using a WD hitch, the rear axle is bearing the raw tongue weight plus the leverage factor of the rear overhang increasing the load on the rear axle. (tow ball to rear axle distance). This can send the rear axle over it's limits. There is also the flexing of the receiver which is much higher in weight carrying mode then in WD mode leading to a fatigue failure of the reciever. And then there is a stability issue as no WD removes weight off the front axle making it not as stable under high winds, or slippery conditison to name a few. You mentioned adding fugawi wrote:Is it possible to reduce the tongue weight by loading the back of the trailer with more weight? I am planning to put on a trailer receiver that may carry 300-400 LB of cargo.I express extreme caution doing this. This one has many factors agasint you. The trailer rear axle can get overloaded by that much weight hanging very far off the back of the camper and yes, it will unload the tongue weight which may make the trailer unstable. And then is the camper frame strong enough to take that heavy rear over hang?Yes you have a heavy TW for that small of a camper. 780/4260X100= 18.3%. Your fresh water tank if it is forward of the axles can/will be good part of that higher % pending how close to the front of the trailer it is. For the trailer, this is not a real bad thing, in your case for the truck it may be. By towing with no water this may drop you down % range, however you said only 50# less. This means the tank must be fairly close to the front TT axle. While moving some gear out of the front of the camper to more towards the middle or some towards the back can help butodds may be your floor plan really does not allow a lot of options on where to put stuff. I had the same issue on both of my campers. Thus the WD hitch can help deal with what you cannot move in gear as the TW is over 600#.However, I myself would not try and shift gear a bunch to get out of using a WD hitch. Yes you can lower it but the WD hitch corrects many other towing issues like some of the stability issues you where talking about.1. Would any part of my setup contribute to the bow wave push?2. Would weight distribution reduce it?To these questions, yes a WD hitch will help create stability in the rig. You did not list the truck front axle weight when "not" hitched to the camper so we cannot tell what weight was removed. Odds are very high that front end weight went way down. The WD hitch will put some of that weight back and make the truck more stable. It will also unload some of the rear axle and the rear suspension. Tire pressures on the truck are part of this equation too. The SUV's ride like a cream puff and by design. However that nice ride can work against towing stability. After getting the WD hitch and setting it up right, you more than likely will find you need to up the tire pressure close to max side wall cold pressure when towing to get a more stable rig. My suggestion, get a 800# rated WD hitch with built in anti sway controls, set up the hitch correctly with the truck and level out the camper with the shank adjustment afterwords. Then work on the tire pressures. The trailer tire pressures needs to be at max side wall cold pressure regardless. I want to commend you on this effort. You are doing a great job, drilling into the details and trying to make your rig the best it can be. Good for you. Many do not take this extra effort. Keep it up, you are off to a good start.Hope this helpsJohn

It is frustrating. I towed a 4,400 lb trailer with our Expy and I felt it was at its max even though I was at less than half its rating. With independent rear suspension and passenger car tires, it was too wiggly when towing. At a minimum, add a weight dist hitch with sway control. It will make it more comfortable to tow.

Yes you need a WD hitch. The primary function of the WD hitch is to distribute tongue weight. You need a WD hitch to distribute the TW between all axles of your combo. The WD hitch distributes weight between front and rear axles of TV. It also distributes some weight to the axles of the trailer.Without a doubt you need a WD hitch.

Expedition Tongue Weight and Bow Wave Push Questions

bikendan
Explorer
Nov 09, 2014
If you had read the Expy's owners manual, the towing section would have stated a certain tongue/trailer weight that requires you using a WDH.
handye9
Explorer II
Nov 09, 2014
bguy wrote:
You are unloading the front axle. Do you see this as a problem? I sure do.

I do too.

Take a look at axle weights (Expedition) with and without the trailer. Specifically the front axle. See how much weight the trailer is taking off the steering axle. Main purpose of a WD hitch, is to restore some, and in some cases, all of that lost weight.

Too lite on your steering axle, makes the whole setup less stable. The pivoting between trailer coupler and hitch ball increases, front end of tow vehicle is more susceptible to movement from wind, trailer, and bad road conditions, and slightest hand movement (even subconscious) can make the trailer wiggle.
tibbitts
Explorer
Nov 09, 2014
fugawi wrote:
Thank you for the replies.

Special thanks to JBarca for taking the time to help me understand this better. I was really hoping for such insight from those of you with more experience.

Also thanks to downtheroad and mbutts for the Expedition/similar trailer insight. It is disappointing and at this point I'm wishing I would have just purchased a 3/4 ton truck.

I forgot to mention that the Expedition has the autoleveling rear suspension, so it was riding level.

The stock tires are Hankook Dynapro AT-m, 275/55R20. 113T.

Those seem like odd wheels/tires for a factory towing setup, but whatever...

I towed a very similar trailer but had less than 780lbs tongue weight. I had a half-ton truck, 1000lb bars with sway control. The bars were probably too heavy, and the receiver (rated similar to yours) bent, and tore portions of the truck frame. Upgrading to a heavier-rated receiver resolved that problem.

I can't imagine why you would have tried towing such a large trailer without weight distribution. Well, actually I can: the hitch head, spring bars, extra pins, clips, tools etc. Combined, it's like hauling around the weight of an extra engine block. And who knows how many surfaces needing grease. And extra time to hitch and unhitch. And needing to find somewhere to store the hitch and parts. Ugh.

In theory, you'd want the same hitch on a 3/4ton truck, but you could probably get by without it better than you could with your vehicle.
shooted
Explorer
Nov 08, 2014
I agree WD is needed. Please read your manual and any instructions with the WD carefully before installation. Tow vehicles with auto leveling suspension require some additional setup consideration/steps. After my experience, I recommend you do the install yourself.

fugawi wrote:

I forgot to mention that the Expedition has the autoleveling rear suspension, so it was riding level.
keymastr
Explorer
Nov 08, 2014
You would need a WD hitch with a 3/4 ton truck also. Sure you could do without it but the difference it makes is so drastic for such small money, Why would you?

Just enjoy your Expedition. They are a good tow vehicle for loads under 8000 gross when set up properly.
bguy
Explorer
Nov 08, 2014
You are unloading the front axle. Do you see this as a problem? I sure do.
fugawi
Explorer II
Nov 08, 2014
Thank you for the replies.

Special thanks to JBarca for taking the time to help me understand this better. I was really hoping for such insight from those of you with more experience.

Also thanks to downtheroad and mbutts for the Expedition/similar trailer insight. It is disappointing and at this point I'm wishing I would have just purchased a 3/4 ton truck.

I forgot to mention that the Expedition has the autoleveling rear suspension, so it was riding level.

The stock tires are Hankook Dynapro AT-m, 275/55R20. 113T.
Lantley
Nomad
Nov 08, 2014
Yes you need a WD hitch. The primary function of the WD hitch is to distribute tongue weight. You need a WD hitch to distribute the TW between all axles of your combo. The WD hitch distributes weight between front and rear axles of TV. It also distributes some weight to the axles of the trailer.
Without a doubt you need a WD hitch.
mbutts
Explorer
Nov 08, 2014
It is frustrating. I towed a 4,400 lb trailer with our Expy and I felt it was at its max even though I was at less than half its rating. With independent rear suspension and passenger car tires, it was too wiggly when towing. At a minimum, add a weight dist hitch with sway control. It will make it more comfortable to tow.
JBarca
Nomad II
Nov 08, 2014
Hi fugawi,

Welcome to the world of towing a camper and figuring out all the variables.

You have a "lot" of really good data to start with. Now figuring out what it means. I had some time this morning so I'll type and try to explain as you work to sort this out in your head. Good for you doing this. The rewards of better towing will come from it.

Yes, you need and want a WD hitch. Ideally you get one with integrated anti sway control. Your loaded tongue weight is over the rating of the receiver. The fine print in Fords owner manual tells you need one. In their eyes, it is a "must". This is really not a good place to be, over their rating. If there is ever an accident even if you did not cause it, someone drilling into the details can find you at fault of being negligent as you are the driver. While this is not gospel, you really do not want to be in this situation. http://www.dangeroustrailers.org/Towing_The_LIne.html

3. What determines the 600 LB tongue weight in the manual? Is this the strength of the metal that comprises the hitch? Is it to help to not exceed the 4,300 LB Rear GAWR?
\

In this case Ford did not tell us or you what the weak link is. Many times the ratings on SUV's are driven by what the rear axle can handle and stay inside it's rating on an "empty" truck. Why put a receiver with more ability then the truck can handle? When you are not using a WD hitch, the rear axle is bearing the raw tongue weight plus the leverage factor of the rear overhang increasing the load on the rear axle. (tow ball to rear axle distance). This can send the rear axle over it's limits. There is also the flexing of the receiver which is much higher in weight carrying mode then in WD mode leading to a fatigue failure of the reciever. And then there is a stability issue as no WD removes weight off the front axle making it not as stable under high winds, or slippery conditison to name a few.

You mentioned adding

fugawi wrote:
Is it possible to reduce the tongue weight by loading the back of the trailer with more weight? I am planning to put on a trailer receiver that may carry 300-400 LB of cargo.

I express extreme caution doing this. This one has many factors agasint you. The trailer rear axle can get overloaded by that much weight hanging very far off the back of the camper and yes, it will unload the tongue weight which may make the trailer unstable. And then is the camper frame strong enough to take that heavy rear over hang?

Yes you have a heavy TW for that small of a camper. 780/4260X100= 18.3%. Your fresh water tank if it is forward of the axles can/will be good part of that higher % pending how close to the front of the trailer it is. For the trailer, this is not a real bad thing, in your case for the truck it may be. By towing with no water this may drop you down % range, however you said only 50# less. This means the tank must be fairly close to the front TT axle. While moving some gear out of the front of the camper to more towards the middle or some towards the back can help butodds may be your floor plan really does not allow a lot of options on where to put stuff. I had the same issue on both of my campers. Thus the WD hitch can help deal with what you cannot move in gear as the TW is over 600#.

However, I myself would not try and shift gear a bunch to get out of using a WD hitch. Yes you can lower it but the WD hitch corrects many other towing issues like some of the stability issues you where talking about.

1. Would any part of my setup contribute to the bow wave push?
2. Would weight distribution reduce it?

To these questions, yes a WD hitch will help create stability in the rig. You did not list the truck front axle weight when "not" hitched to the camper so we cannot tell what weight was removed. Odds are very high that front end weight went way down. The WD hitch will put some of that weight back and make the truck more stable. It will also unload some of the rear axle and the rear suspension.

Tire pressures on the truck are part of this equation too. The SUV's ride like a cream puff and by design. However that nice ride can work against towing stability. After getting the WD hitch and setting it up right, you more than likely will find you need to up the tire pressure close to max side wall cold pressure when towing to get a more stable rig.

My suggestion, get a 800# rated WD hitch with built in anti sway controls, set up the hitch correctly with the truck and level out the camper with the shank adjustment afterwords. Then work on the tire pressures. The trailer tire pressures needs to be at max side wall cold pressure regardless.

I want to commend you on this effort. You are doing a great job, drilling into the details and trying to make your rig the best it can be. Good for you. Many do not take this extra effort. Keep it up, you are off to a good start.

Hope this helps

John