Forum Discussion
- BarneySExplorer IIIThe replies are becoming personal and the thread is off topic. Time to close.
Barney - BenKExplorerThere is a difference in approach and presentation of our differing opinions...
I will NOT press others that mine is the best and that all others are junk
A discussion is my methodology and up to those in the discussion and
listening to make up their own minds. Based on whatever knowledge and/or
reference they might seek in others or informational vehicles (books,
magazines, internet, etc)
Have stated why I'll never go with any MC PSI sensed and repeat that I'll
not open up my TV's braking system for this. There are other attributes
that is not for me.
Like their engineering and fastidiousness of both design and instruction
A cantilevered brake line without support is not a good design and
others with better common sense have resolved it with a simple tie
wrap.
Or not instructing to bleed down to each wheel where that line is
modified.
Or that it only senses 'one' brake line, where by law mandating that
all vehicles shall have 'TWO' brake lines in case one becomes compromised
somehow. If that one line a MC sensed trailer brake controller is
compromised...then there will be no trailer brakes...whereas my P3
system will still have full trailer braking as long as my brake pedal
switch system is working
Here are a couple links found in seconds on HOW2 replace a MC and is
no different than opening up one line to install a stub line.
Notice that they both instruct to bleed down to each wheel after
bench bleeding the MC and installing it on the vehicle.
AutoMD: How to Replace a Brake Master Cylinder
21
Locate the brake bleeder valve on your passenger side rear brake caliper or wheel cylinder.
26
Repeat steps 22 through 25 in the following order: Left rear wheel, right front wheel, left front wheel.
carsdirect: Replacing a Faulty Brake Master Cylinder
Filling and Bleeding the Master Cylinder
Now you want to add DOT 3 brake fluid to the new master. Initially, you can fill the master all the way to the top. Now, you will want to press the brakes until you feel the brake pedal stiffen. At this point, you want togravity bleed the brakes by leaving the bleeder screw on each caliper loose for about 15 minutes
. Now you want to do a complete bleed. For this process you will need a friend to help you. Start by having your friend pump the brakes until stiff and hold them. While you friend holds the brakes, you loosen the bleeder screw. Do this process until nothing but brake fluid flows from the bleeder screw on each caliper.
If any mechanic does not believe in bleeding down to the wheel after
breaking open any brake line...then I'll not allow that one to touch
any of my vehicles. No understanding the laws of physics of air in
a hydraulic brake line.
In case you think I've never done any work on, or even engineered and
designed braking systems...
Here is the MC bench bleeder I made up after finding my old set missing
and the store bought stuff cr@p...have made up several sets for buddies
in the automotive business and even their friends. Much better than
'most' store bought, plastic tubing, sets
Been over 10 years since my last MC replacement and am noodling that
for the 2000 Odyssey, as it is acting up. A new setup but for the
single tank that it has. Easy enough and just a bit of design and
off the shelf brake line tubing and a mandrel bender.
Have also designed many industrial disc brake systems with the largest
a 48" dia setup with an electric 5HP hydraulic pump.
The wonderful attributes of how a MC PSI sensed also applies to how
my P3 works and I even have more positive attributes that a MC PSI
sensed CAN NOT duplicate or have as features
Mine does stop as one
No jerking or banging
Trailer leads the TV in braking
Here are some that a MC PSI sensed CAN NOT do...unless they too
have TV brake pedal switch that is switched with an approx 0.01" movement
of the pedal
I can stop the whole setup (TV and trailer) without ever developing
MC PSI. Can a MaxBrake do that?
I can nail the brakes to have both TV and trailer brakes go max and
then feather the TV's brakes to ZERO all the while keeping the trailer
brakes at whatever the controller's inertia sensor reports as the
deceleration rate is
Glad you guys love our MaxBrake, as it works for you where the others
have not, but consider it a disservice to others who may not know much
on how braking systems work when statements like: "all others are junk", etc
I am glad that my P3 works for me and will not tell others that yours
is junk. Just information I used to derive my opinion...and I do not
need to drive one to understand how it works. Automation and process
controls are part of my background and can noodle how they work from
just a logic diagram.
Bottom line for me on so many not liking whatever is that they normally
have their system NOT setup right - Cummins12V98Explorer III
Yellermanx wrote:
BenK wrote:
Cummins12V98 wrote:
Have watched several videos on the MaxBrake. One from MaxBrake and other
snip....
with those two 'mechanics' pushing MaxBrake.
Both recommend only from the 'T' to the new stub line of the sensor
Makes no matter how high a point it is...the hydraulic line was opened
and the 'proper' way to resolve any possible air in 'that' line is to
bleed it from the MC down to 'both' wheel calipers/cylinders
Why I asked on that other thread where a 'master ASE' brake mechanic
about his consideration to purchase a MaxBrake
Without any prodding...he volunteered that he would 'gravity' bleed
down to the wheels.
Just ask any certified brake mechanic about opening the line at the
MC and if that/those lines would be okay to not bleed them down to
each wheel caliper/cylinder
If one should say nope, then I'll never allow that person to touch
any of my vehicles or friends vehicles
Telling on what they know about hydraulic brake systems. The why of
my comment of 'fastidiousness' of design/engineering.
Also have read here and other forums where folks used their common
sense after installing a MaxBrake. They deemed that the stub line for
the sensor is unsupported. That is referred to as a 'cantilever' and
the potential for vibration fatigue (metal fracture via tiny stress
cracks) is there. Dependent on the harmonics vs the metal tubing's
resonance frequency.
They tied the sensor stub line off with nylon tie wraps. Now they
have solved one of the miscues of MaxBrake engineering & designers.
The other two are not directing to bleed the whole line down to each
wheel and that they only sense one of the MC lines.
There are two lines mandated by law and for good reason. If one line
should become compromised...the other 'most likely' will still be ok
or in better condition.
If the line that gets corrupted for whatever reason with a MC sensed
controller...then the controller will NOT see any braking command.
Therefore no trailer brakes...as that line will have no PSI
Oh yeah...there was another thread here from a member with a MaxBrake
who had false trailer braking.
Could be a bad controller, bad sensor or that there was a bubble in
'that' line that was NOT bled. That bubble will or could provide a
bit of PSI that the sensor saw to initiate trailer braking
Hope he got that resolved by MaxBrake and wonder if they now have
bleeding that whole line as part of their procedure?
Is your whole purpose for being on this forum to dis the Max Brake? Every time it is brought up you jump right in with a bunch of disinformation about it.
Have you ever changed a master cylinder? Guess what? You don't bleed the whole system. You bench bleed it then just bleed it at the lines after installing. BTW I had all the NIASE certifications before it was ASE. I never renewed them because the tests were a joke. However I remained in the business for many years.
Your only concern that MIGHT be valid is tying it off somewhere. Which I did on mine. This is 2013 and they build sensors that can take far more pressure than anyone's truck on this forum can produce.
I didn't even lose enough fluid to add any when I installed mine. If you don't feel comfortable bleeding brakes get a competent "mechanic" per your words. I can tell you that 99.999% of them have no experience with the MB. Just doesn't come up in the average automotive shop. Would only come up if they are somehow involved in trailer towing.
I imagine asking a mechanic a generic question "should I tap into my hydraulic system?" would be answered no not being familiar with the MB.
Suppose there was a pressure failure in the side the controller is tapped in to. You still have the lever on the controller.
You evidently have never owned or towed with a Max Brake so shouldn't comment on it. I had a P3 and was never happy with it, I will leave it at that because I have lots to say about it. That's why I converted to the MB. What a world of difference.
On a scale of 1-10 if you feel the P3 is a ten the the MB is a ten thousand.
99% (just a guess didn't count) of the anti MB comments on here are from one person. Wonder why?
I don't enjoy typing so I'm through.
Good post!
I just installed mine with the assistance from Dutch and Di in Pahrump, NV last month, they are distributors of MaxBrake and members on here. I can guarantee there was less than a thimble full of fluid lost when bleeding at the sensor. The line is secured with a tie wrap.
If the air was not all removed you would feel it right away the first time you applied the brakes. If the brakes were spongy it would be easy to bleed the brakes. But if you follow the directions that will not happen.
My factory controller was better than the P-2 I have in my 98 but they were both POS's compared to the MaxBrake!
Spend the money and get the best! - YellermanxExplorer
BenK wrote:
Cummins12V98 wrote:
Have watched several videos on the MaxBrake. One from MaxBrake and other
snip....
with those two 'mechanics' pushing MaxBrake.
Both recommend only from the 'T' to the new stub line of the sensor
Makes no matter how high a point it is...the hydraulic line was opened
and the 'proper' way to resolve any possible air in 'that' line is to
bleed it from the MC down to 'both' wheel calipers/cylinders
Why I asked on that other thread where a 'master ASE' brake mechanic
about his consideration to purchase a MaxBrake
Without any prodding...he volunteered that he would 'gravity' bleed
down to the wheels.
Just ask any certified brake mechanic about opening the line at the
MC and if that/those lines would be okay to not bleed them down to
each wheel caliper/cylinder
If one should say nope, then I'll never allow that person to touch
any of my vehicles or friends vehicles
Telling on what they know about hydraulic brake systems. The why of
my comment of 'fastidiousness' of design/engineering.
Also have read here and other forums where folks used their common
sense after installing a MaxBrake. They deemed that the stub line for
the sensor is unsupported. That is referred to as a 'cantilever' and
the potential for vibration fatigue (metal fracture via tiny stress
cracks) is there. Dependent on the harmonics vs the metal tubing's
resonance frequency.
They tied the sensor stub line off with nylon tie wraps. Now they
have solved one of the miscues of MaxBrake engineering & designers.
The other two are not directing to bleed the whole line down to each
wheel and that they only sense one of the MC lines.
There are two lines mandated by law and for good reason. If one line
should become compromised...the other 'most likely' will still be ok
or in better condition.
If the line that gets corrupted for whatever reason with a MC sensed
controller...then the controller will NOT see any braking command.
Therefore no trailer brakes...as that line will have no PSI
Oh yeah...there was another thread here from a member with a MaxBrake
who had false trailer braking.
Could be a bad controller, bad sensor or that there was a bubble in
'that' line that was NOT bled. That bubble will or could provide a
bit of PSI that the sensor saw to initiate trailer braking
Hope he got that resolved by MaxBrake and wonder if they now have
bleeding that whole line as part of their procedure?
Is your whole purpose for being on this forum to dis the Max Brake? Every time it is brought up you jump right in with a bunch of disinformation about it.
Have you ever changed a master cylinder? Guess what? You don't bleed the whole system. You bench bleed it then just bleed it at the lines after installing. BTW I had all the NIASE certifications before it was ASE. I never renewed them because the tests were a joke. However I remained in the business for many years.
Your only concern that MIGHT be valid is tying it off somewhere. Which I did on mine. This is 2013 and they build sensors that can take far more pressure than anyone's truck on this forum can produce.
I didn't even lose enough fluid to add any when I installed mine. If you don't feel comfortable bleeding brakes get a competent "mechanic" per your words. I can tell you that 99.999% of them have no experience with the MB. Just doesn't come up in the average automotive shop. Would only come up if they are somehow involved in trailer towing.
I imagine asking a mechanic a generic question "should I tap into my hydraulic system?" would be answered no not being familiar with the MB.
Suppose there was a pressure failure in the side the controller is tapped in to. You still have the lever on the controller.
You evidently have never owned or towed with a Max Brake so shouldn't comment on it. I had a P3 and was never happy with it, I will leave it at that because I have lots to say about it. That's why I converted to the MB. What a world of difference.
On a scale of 1-10 if you feel the P3 is a ten the the MB is a ten thousand.
99% (just a guess didn't count) of the anti MB comments on here are from one person. Wonder why?
I don't enjoy typing so I'm through. - BenKExplorer
Cummins12V98 wrote:
snip....
Dude you are wrong about bleeding with the Max Brake!
The connection is at the high point and the bleeding is from the connection to the end of the small line the Honeywell sensor is attached to
Have you personally seen the installation of a MaxBrake or are you just assuming?
If you don't want to use one fine but don't spread false info!.
Have watched several videos on the MaxBrake. One from MaxBrake and other
with those two 'mechanics' pushing MaxBrake.
Both recommend only from the 'T' to the new stub line of the sensor
Makes no matter how high a point it is...the hydraulic line was opened
and the 'proper' way to resolve any possible air in 'that' line is to
bleed it from the MC down to 'both' wheel calipers/cylinders
Why I asked on that other thread where a 'master ASE' brake mechanic
about his consideration to purchase a MaxBrake
Without any prodding...he volunteered that he would 'gravity' bleed
down to the wheels.
Just ask any certified brake mechanic about opening the line at the
MC and if that/those lines would be okay to not bleed them down to
each wheel caliper/cylinder
If one should say nope, then I'll never allow that person to touch
any of my vehicles or friends vehicles
Telling on what they know about hydraulic brake systems. The why of
my comment of 'fastidiousness' of design/engineering.
Also have read here and other forums where folks used their common
sense after installing a MaxBrake. They deemed that the stub line for
the sensor is unsupported. That is referred to as a 'cantilever' and
the potential for vibration fatigue (metal fracture via tiny stress
cracks) is there. Dependent on the harmonics vs the metal tubing's
resonance frequency.
They tied the sensor stub line off with nylon tie wraps. Now they
have solved one of the miscues of MaxBrake engineering & designers.
The other two are not directing to bleed the whole line down to each
wheel and that they only sense one of the MC lines.
There are two lines mandated by law and for good reason. If one line
should become compromised...the other 'most likely' will still be ok
or in better condition.
If the line that gets corrupted for whatever reason with a MC sensed
controller...then the controller will NOT see any braking command.
Therefore no trailer brakes...as that line will have no PSI
Oh yeah...there was another thread here from a member with a MaxBrake
who had false trailer braking.
Could be a bad controller, bad sensor or that there was a bubble in
'that' line that was NOT bled. That bubble will or could provide a
bit of PSI that the sensor saw to initiate trailer braking
Hope he got that resolved by MaxBrake and wonder if they now have
bleeding that whole line as part of their procedure? - LantleyNomad
BarneyS wrote:
There has been quite a bit of discussion of this brake controller in the past. Take a look at this long thread which is now in the archives.
Barney
Barney that is a really good thread. I Sort of forgot about it.
But it is very enlightening and is great discussion on inertia based controllers vs. hydraulic/master cylinder based controllers. Boy it is long! - Cummins12V98Explorer III
BenK wrote:
Don't know the Hensley and ask if they make their own or re-badge ?
'Best' is subjective and for me, never going to touch my TV's braking system
hydraulics. Plus do NOT have an faith in those OEM's...as their instructions telling
on their level of engineering/design (fastidiousness both in knowledge and thoroughness)
They do NOT inform to bleed the TV's brake line (that was modified) all the way
down to the wheels (two, as the MC has two lines as a safety measure mandated by
law)
Then that it is only on 'one' line and if that line should go south, no trailer
brakes
Finally, my P3 inertia based can lead the trailer brakes much sooner than any
MC PSI based. Even stop the whole setup (TV & Trailer) without ever setting the
TV's brakes
So...the question is what is the 'sense' (MC fluid PSI, inertia, time based, etc)
is that controller?
Dude you are wrong about bleeding with the Max Brake!
The connection is at the high point and the bleeding is from the connection to the end of the small line the Honeywell sensor is attached to
Have you personally seen the installation of a MaxBrake or are you just assuming?
If you don't want to use one fine but don't spread false info!. - BarneySExplorer IIIThere has been quite a bit of discussion of this brake controller in the past. Take a look at this long thread which is now in the archives.
Barney - carringbExplorer
Frozen001 wrote:
it does not just "guess" how fast you are slowing down.
Actually, this would be the best explanation why it's so terrible!
Seriously, I hooked my Voyager back up until Prodigy finally arrived. With the Hensley (gold version)...stomp on the brakes, and the trailer would push hard. Hit an expansion joint while braking gently, and the trailer brakes would go full-on. - BenKExplorerDon't know the Hensley and ask if they make their own or re-badge ?
'Best' is subjective and for me, never going to touch my TV's braking system
hydraulics. Plus do NOT have an faith in those OEM's...as their instructions telling
on their level of engineering/design (fastidiousness both in knowledge and thoroughness)
They do NOT inform to bleed the TV's brake line (that was modified) all the way
down to the wheels (two, as the MC has two lines as a safety measure mandated by
law)
Then that it is only on 'one' line and if that line should go south, no trailer
brakes
Finally, my P3 inertia based can lead the trailer brakes much sooner than any
MC PSI based. Even stop the whole setup (TV & Trailer) without ever setting the
TV's brakes
So...the question is what is the 'sense' (MC fluid PSI, inertia, time based, etc)
is that controller?
About RV Tips & Tricks
Looking for advice before your next adventure? Look no further.25,105 PostsLatest Activity: Jan 25, 2025