3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[Dan86300zxt]

Thanks for the update....gives me a little re-assurance.

As for it being illegal to ship filled with fuel.>>>Yes,illegal.
As for oil..I don't know.
*I have boughten several things that were shipped filled with oil and it is very frustrating because during transit/shipping..the package gets tipped and turned all sorts of different ways, even if it states this side up on the box. The leaves the cardboard soft, soaked with oil and the item inside the box a mess.
Dan

[TeamSlacker]

Well I cleaned up the oil mess a bit, filled with oil and gas and gave it a try. Took a dozen or two pulls before it fired up (unlike my champion, etq, and powerwise that all started the first time with 2 or 3 pulls). Pushed the choke back in and it settled into a pretty low idle. I plugged in a 500 light, the rpm surged up for second and then idled back down again to what seemed close to the no load rpm. So it would appear it has smart throttle on all the time. Actual noise measuring might have to wait until the snow melts so I can take it out in the back yard with a db meter, but it was pretty quiet with no load and 500w load. The plastic case was making some nasty vibration noises though which were louder than the gen itself. when I shut it down and moved it there was a puddle of gas under it, so I'll have to pull the case apart to find where it's leaking gas too.

..update..
I fired up the AP along side my running ETQ in800i. The AP sounds louder to my ear (maybe the rattles), but also seems to be running lower rpm with no load, and has a deeper 'throatier' tone like V8 vrs 4cyl.
I think I posted in this thread, results about my sound measurements on the ETQ, but basically at no load the quietest side was 58db, loudest was 64. My gut says this AP is probably close to the stated 59db (on the quietest side, with no load)
When I was testing the ETQ months ago, I was able to quiet it down by about 3db on all sides by spraying the insides of the plastic panels with a couple coats of automotive undercoating. I think the all power might benifit from the same treatment based on what I heard so far. The etq had no extra space in the case, which is why I used spray on undercoat, I didn't want to block any airflow in it. The AP looks like it might have more room (without restricting airflow) that I might be able to use some thicker stick on sound deading material too.

yes, Dan I did get it from ebay, came across it one day listed and I like playing with gen's almost as much as the prof, so figured I'd try this one out too. I was one of the shall we say 'early adopters' in this thread, and bought my first "powerwise 3.5kw" about the same time I think the Prof got his. (within a few pages of this topic starting) I haven't said much in this thread since, because that Powerwise just kept on humming at the race track for years for me. The motor is still running, but the gen unit bit the dust. I dont think it was any fault of the gen. My brother had a WEN brand that died on him, and I swapped AVR's trying to figure out what was wrong with his, but within hours of me doing the swap, my Powerwise died with similar symptoms as his WEN did, so I think I killed it buy swaping parts.

[tvman44]

I thought it was illegal to ship with oil or fuel.

[Dan86300zxt]

*I'm not expecting mine to be delivered with oil in it already....but maybe that's me "assuming". The ebay seller claims to have tested it for 1 hr to verify its condition and output.
**Yes, I would be a bit frustrated if arrived an oily mess.
***I didn't notice there was a version that was the same but different. I do know that what I bought is not a current All-Power America product(It seems a model year or two old of a design). It looks like it was re-cased/re-configured and re-labelled as a 4 hp, unit with a handle and larger gas tank for the 2011 year.
****I only decided to go this route because of the fact of it being an inverter generator, the price, the guarantee to run...and to hold me over for the summer..IF I cannot afford to finish my complete project in time(4-6 six volt golf cart batteries, and the Progressive Dynamics PD9160A 60 amp charger).
-The results of my decision in the end will be a smaller amp charger and longer runtime to recharge my batteries.
^^My fingers are crossed^^
Keep me updated as to what you find out with yours..did you buy yours from ebay too?
Dan

[TeamSlacker]

Good luck Dan 🙂 and I only say that because one showed up on my doorstep yesterday too.
Not happy that it shipped full of oil apparently, which now has coated most of the gen and soaked thru the box.
Haven't fired it up yet, need to complain to the seller first, and then clean it up.
Have you noticed there seems to be 2 versions? One with a smart/eco throttle switch in the lower left corner of the panel, and the other has a sticker in that area, I got the later, no switch. I did remove the carb cover on the case, and peeked at the carb, it appears to have a stepper motor on top, so curious to see if mine will have variable throt or not. Basically, wasn't sure what I was buying, but figured what the heck.... give it a shot...

[Dan86300zxt]

Well, I am going to alter my set-up.
Due to the smallish compartment I have and the fact our MH is older and doesn't have A/C...
I decided to snag this for $350 w/free delivery.(Tested for 1 hr at full load before shipping, guaranteed to work)
*2000 watt surge/1600 watt continous Digital Inverter Generator*
http://www.toolsoutlet.com/99013012.html
-Wish me luck!!
:S

[jasult]

Old & Slow wrote:
EE's aplenty. Makes me feel warm all over. Not that one lives here. Now, it has been stated on this thread way back when, that one possible cause of the common AVR failure in gensets is from spikes. Perhaps this is just 'one' reason for the over voltage protection in some newer Champion's ??

Could be/ the tech (Adam) had the answer in seconds like it was fresh in his head and did not have to go research what answer was.

[Old___Slow]

EE's aplenty. Makes me feel warm all over. Not that one lives here. Now, it has been stated on this thread way back when, that one possible cause of the common AVR failure in gensets is from spikes. Perhaps this is just 'one' reason for the over voltage protection in some newer Champion's ??

[Salvo]

I stop by now and then as you guys are having so much fun there.

This issue brings back memories of a large caliber machine gun problem I was called on to fix. After the gun was operated in burst mode for a minute or so, it would all of a sudden start shooting at full speed while the trigger had no control of stopping the gun. To make a long story short, the trigger activated a relay which activated a solenoid that initiates the shooting. The solenoid has a large inductance. Once current flows through an inductor, the inductor will do everything in its power to maintain that current even when the relay wants to turn the current off. As the relay contacts start to open, the solenoid generates an extremely large voltage that's large enough to ionize the air gap between the relay contacts. Current will continue to flow until the relay contacts have moved far enough apart. The spark that keeps current flowing heat the contacts. A succession of firing bursts create enough heat to weld the relay contacts together, resulting in an uncontrollable gun. The fix was to add a capacitor between the relay contacts. As the contacts opened, current continues to flow by way of the capacitor. By the time the capacitor is fully charged, the contacts are far enough apart to prevent a spark from occurring.

I've also seen this problem with a grinder. The switch contacts on this grinder had welded shut. The only way to turn it off is to pull the plug.

The voltage spike created by opening up contacts to an inductor can be pretty powerful. The larger the inductance, or the larger the current, or the faster the turn-off time, the larger the induced voltage.

V = -L * di/dt

Sal

jasult wrote:

toprudder wrote:

jasult wrote:
I explained to him what was going on and he instantly told me that the 15 amp grinder was not the problem however when I release the load there is a voltage spike and these champs have a safety device to protect any thing plugged in if there is a spike and shuts down genny. He said that big electric motors can cause this spike.

That is called "electrical fast transient".

toprudder, thanks - I never saw the mention of this problem on this site and it is only when I ran my 15 amp grinder and releasing the trigger. At leaast I know now what to do when running a large electric motor. The Tech (Adam) was great and very fast response time in helping me get to the answer in seconds. Again, the solution is to just unplug the BLACK wire from the shut off switch if the spike activates the shutdown.

[jasult]

toprudder wrote:

jasult wrote:
I explained to him what was going on and he instantly told me that the 15 amp grinder was not the problem however when I release the load there is a voltage spike and these champs have a safety device to protect any thing plugged in if there is a spike and shuts down genny. He said that big electric motors can cause this spike.

That is called "electrical fast transient".

toprudder, thanks - I never saw the mention of this problem on this site and it is only when I ran my 15 amp grinder and releasing the trigger. At leaast I know now what to do when running a large electric motor. The Tech (Adam) was great and very fast response time in helping me get to the answer in seconds. Again, the solution is to just unplug the BLACK wire from the shut off switch if the spike activates the shutdown.

[RayJayco]

professor95 wrote:
Boone,

What is you position/experience on Chevron Techron Concentrate as a consumer added fuel system cleaner - particularly in small engines and 2-stroke outboard motors?

I am not Boone, however I can say that if you happen to get a bad tank of gas (you will know rather quickly after a fill up if that is the case) adding a bottle of Techron will straighten it out...

Some years ago I filled up in Okeechobee (with Premium…- as a note; never do this at a low volume station in a lower income community as the gas will probably be old as they don’t sell much of it…), while heading to West Palm Beach and about 15 miles or so down the road, engine started doing all kinds of spitting/sputtering/knocking, etc., so I called my mechanic, he said to add a bottle of Techron. I did not think that I would ever reach West Palm running the way that it was, but as soon as I did I stopped at the first Chevron I saw, and put a bottle in and in a few short miles, was back to normal… I have told some other people that had similar problems and it also worked for them…

[professor95]

Dan86300zxt wrote:


^^Can you give me a heads up as to how many 6 volt batteries you use for your system and how long on average you have to run your generator to recharge using that charger?

This will NOT be exact but can be used as an estimate:

Two six volt golf cart batteries will give you 220 Ah at the 20 hour rate until the batteries are discharged to a low of 11.5 volts (considered dead).

This works out to a load capacity drawing 22 amps from the batteries continuously for 20 hours. Due to temperature, lack of a 100% charge to start with, a dead battery being of no use and different current loads over the period cut that in half to 10 hours.

The reverse theory is true - if both batteries are completely dead, it will take 20 hours to reach a full charge with a 22 amp battery charger. In real time it will not work out to that exact rate. You should be able to achieve a 90& charge from a Progressive Dynamics four stage 65 amp converter/charger in about 4 hours. A 100% charge will require something like an additional 8 hours. Charge current and voltage from the charger will be reduced as the battery begins to reach the 80% charge point.

You can find some useful temperature/voltage/charge level tables here.

You will receive up to twice the recharge cycles from two six volt golf cart batteries than group 24 or 27 12-volt marine/RV batteries, more vibration damage resistance and the ability to recharge at a faster rate without heat damage to the batteries.

If you have the space and can carry the added weight four GC batteries wired in series-parallel can take care of a camper's off-grid power needs nicely for 3-4 days without recharging. (weight of one GC battery is about 75#) This is based on running the refrigerator on LPG and not leaving every light in the house on all the time. Use of the furnace will reduce battery reserve power rapidly. Indoor safe "Buddy" catalytic heaters help to offset this drain during cold weather camping. So does a roaring outside campfire and a few extra blankets on the bed.

REMEMBER - DO NOT place batteries in an un-vented area, do not vent to your living areas and keep them away from ignition sources!

I have run as long as a week on a 440 Ah battery bank in warm weather by limiting use of the inverter to only Nancy's hair curling irons once a day and using a 15" LCD TV with a 12 volt power option for 1-2 hours per day.

I now have over 1,800 Ah of battery power available (added battery weight of 1,200 pounds is not an issue with my tow vehicle - I carry extra batteries in the Volvo, not the camper. I plug them into the camper when needed.)

I no longer run the GC batteries with my camper. I have sealed Absorbed Glass Mat batteries. I did not have to buy them at full retail price. If I had, a second mortgage on my house would have been needed. I will return to GC batteries when the AGM's expire - which should not be happening in the next 8-10 years.

[Old___Slow]

The saga of the Chinese small engines is getting more and more interesting. I notice when you click on 'engines' in the Harbor Freight website, 'Grayhound' is clearly shown as the mfg. Grayhound engines are, I am tool, supplied by the thousands to lawn and graden equipment mfg' with very good reports. I'm encouraged the Chinese are uping their quality in engines. Now if they will just following along with better electronics (ie) Inverters. I continue to be pleased with my Champion C46540. It's so simple in design CPE can give instructions to repair it as a DIY activity even to the old and slow...:D I want to read this will be the same with the new Inverters.

[Dan86300zxt]

professor95 wrote:

Dan86300zxt wrote:
Well, I think I have my mind made up...

SNIP

^^^Just need to pick a good deal/good price/fast charger to recharge my battery bank I want to utilize...(still stuck here)..planning on 4- group 24 or group 27 batteries....walmart specials.

Dan,

I hope you realize that the terms group 24 or 27 and fast charger do not belong in the same sentience.

You will be mucho money ahead in the longer run to purchase a set of 2 six volt golf cart batteries (series connected) or perhaps a set of 4 that are series parallel connected.

The speed of battery recharge is essentially limited by the temperature of the battery core. Both the 24 and 27 will have closer spacing and thinner plates. They are simply not designed for fast charging.

On the other hand the golf cart batteries are designed so that the possibility of plate damage is minimized due to their greater plate thickness, spacing and liquid volume.

Your other option would be sealed Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM) batteries. But, these are $$$$expensive$$$$ and are also prone to permanent damage if charged too fast.

In addition to speed, get a charger with a full 4-stage charge cycle.

I use a Progressive Dynamics PD9170A with the Charge Wizard on my battery bank. I have been extremely happy with performance and recharge times.

^^Can you give me a heads up as to how many 6 volt batteries you use for your system and how long on average you have to run your generator to recharge using that charger?

[toprudder]

jasult wrote:
I explained to him what was going on and he instantly told me that the 15 amp grinder was not the problem however when I release the load there is a voltage spike and these champs have a safety device to protect any thing plugged in if there is a spike and shuts down genny. He said that big electric motors can cause this spike.

That is called "electrical fast transient".