Buying an AGM online?

landyacht318 wrote:
Without knowing the parasitic draw and how long it is applied while the vehicle is in storage, that proposed engine starting battery might be getting deep cycled.

Absolutely And It Would Be A Killer

Posted: 07/30/18 10:40pm Link | Quote | Edit | Print | Notify Moderator
What is the number in milliamps for the vehicle chassis parasitic draw?

Without knowing the parasitic draw and how long it is applied while the vehicle is in storage, that proposed engine starting battery might be getting deep cycled.

Unless an AGM runs around constantly at 60% charge, the .5% factor is not a serious issue. Batteries that maintain 80-90% soc with periodic full charging are nowhere as stressed as those that are deeply discharged.

Gotta remember the millions of vehicle AGMs running around under similar operating conditions that manage to eke out very long lifespans.

It's the cycling that takes it's toll. Unless a busload of leeches have been attached to the engine starting battery circuit the parasitic draw can be assumed to be moderate at worst unless measured and proven in error.

Have to remember the Reality Rule. If AGM batteries failed that often in chassis duty, then Fullriver, Odyssey, Concorde, and the Spiral gangs would have gone chapter 7 decades ago. Cars in broiling summer bumper to bumper traffic cycle their batteries. To disqualify a battery because of not meeting absolute optimum operating conditions is frankly going a bit overboard. A 65 wet is going to cost more per mile driven than a regular AGM. The 135 dollar price tag at Wal-Mart really skews the factorials. The average 65 lasts 3-4 years in service. That to me is pricey. I asked Carol at RAMCAR if the DEKA unit had a high morbidity. She said "No". But their regular 65 was cranky. No one will buy a low CCA 65. It's all 825 CCA and Doctor Kevorkian with the wet 65's --- they truly are a bad design.

Ford, and their lunatic designers forced the 65 on the world because when the longhairs got finished with "what sells the units" a group 27 would not fit. And they were facing stuffing an International Harvester 6.9 engine into some models.

GM is not innocent. The side terminal batteries were morphidite designed for exactly the same reason -- styling constraints. Fun huh? Just like GM's aluminum battery cables.

I own a MoPar K car. And it has yet another funny farm model battery, the group 34. Insane? There is nine inches of clearance between the top of the battery posts and the hood. The 34 is yet another starvin' marvin design. A group 27 with TWICE the power at 90% of the cost of the 34 is going to replace the 34. I may or may not go AGM with the 27. The car like Landyacht's has a Nightmare On Elm Street grade. computer voltage regulator.

My fussiness means I demand something that will do a personalized satisfactory job for me at the lowest cost per day or electrical measurement unit. I could have gone Fullriver, or Odyssey, or whatever AGM for my UPS but I honked out another sixty dollars and guess what -- after almost eight years that Lifeline retains 98+ percent of original amp hours storage capacity.

Find a 600 CCA wet 65 for Naio, and you will change my mind. That is if the battery costs 100 dollars or so. And as a parting shot, they don't make golf car and industrial batteries with mammoth size electrolyte capacity for fun. This is why amp hour per amp hour an L-16 will vastly outlive a scrubber battery even though plate thickness is not a huge difference.

Naio, are you going to put the meanwell on the proposed AGM after the vehicle sits in storage, or are you going to expect simply driving the vehicle will be enough to keep it happy.

The AGm will self discharge less, and likely be ble to start the engine when much more depleted than its flooded counterpart, but it is not going to be immune to the effects of being chronically undercharged rom self discharge and paraistic draws.

if the fateyour engine battery is to be determined by your vehicle's charging system and the amount you drive, then i will say again to just get the freshest flooded starter battery with the best easiest to use warranty you can find.

If you are going to hook the meanwell to it and bring it to mid 14's until amps taper to 0.5% of capacity any time you get the chance, then the AGM will likely give good bang for the buck, but it depends on the parasitic draw and how long it is feeding on the battery.

Unhooking the negative battery cable will stop the parasitic draw, and the computer controlled engine might run crusty until it relearns the sensor readings, and boohoo you wil have to reset the preset radio staions.

if you cant be bothered to maintain a haughty expensive AGM engine starting battery then go cheap and warranty it, like the rest of humanity that believes the alternator is some magical physics defying instant battery charger, and the quality/price/label of the battery determines its lifespan, as opposed to how it is treated during it.

It could very well take 10+ hours at 14.5v before amps taper to 0.5% of capacity on a slowly discharged battery over seeral months, and a 'smart charger' would be lucky to hold it for 1/5 of that time, and that green light smart chrgers throw out to indicate full charge, mocks any fool who believes it.

What is the number in milliamps for the vehicle chassis parasitic draw?

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
They be fulla shug-ah...

Even flooded calcium calcium WET batteries should check at 12.7 - 12.9 volts when they are fresh.

It's up to you about what to do, but I see a pimple faced youth in your future reciting the company litany if you try to warranty it.

That is exactly what I'm worried about.

Did you do the 50% discharged then recharge the battery at 14.4 volts until the amperage hits a brick wall? Somewhere around 6-7 amps?

No, but I could, later this week. I just stuck the smart charger on it when it arrived, because I didn't have the energy for details. And then when that only got it to 12.85 I put the meanwell on it at 14.7v until it stayed at 2 amps for several hours. Next day, 12.79v :(.

A good AGM will only lose .2 volt static charge resting for three months on a shelf at 70F

Lotsa ways to test the battery -- CCA at 400 amperes draw, 15-seconds on an adjustable load tester (Interstate battery distributor). Impedance testing yet another way.

My opinion is to go-for-it with that battery.

Wait, what? Do you mean keep it?

pianotuna wrote:
Mex,

Welcome home.

Naio, provide a way to trickle charge the starter battery from some solar. (with a trik-l-start)

12.39 is not my cup of tea.

My autozone is sitting at 12.8 volts, with the input voltage of 13.2 from a trik-l-start

charger 13.2-->trik-l-start-->starter battery 12.8

I have multiple dashboard solar panels, but they don't keep up with the parasitic loads on my new, bigger van. They worked ok for the smaller one.

I hesitate to get a small rooftop solar panel just for the battery, when what I really want is a larger system in a couple years if I have more money.

I could get something like this , 3lbs, $32 including shipping. But I would need a controller for it, too, right? Which doubles the price at least.

I'm more inclined to put in a dashboard battery cutoff. I would welcome advice on that, too, and wonder if I should start a new thread for it.

Mex,

Welcome home.

Naio, provide a way to trickle charge the starter battery from some solar. (with a trik-l-start)

12.39 is not my cup of tea.

My autozone is sitting at 12.8 volts, with the input voltage of 13.2 from a trik-l-start

charger 13.2-->trik-l-start-->starter battery 12.8

They be fulla shug-ah...

Even flooded calcium calcium WET batteries should check at 12.7 - 12.9 volts when they are fresh.

It's up to you about what to do, but I see a pimple faced youth in your future reciting the company litany if you try to warranty it.

Did you do the 50% discharged then recharge the battery at 14.4 volts until the amperage hits a brick wall? Somewhere around 6-7 amps?

A good AGM will only lose .2 volt static charge resting for three months on a shelf at 70F

Lotsa ways to test the battery -- CCA at 400 amperes draw, 15-seconds on an adjustable load tester (Interstate battery distributor). Impedance testing yet another way.

My opinion is to go-for-it with that battery.

Well, shee-it. So maybe going back to flooded is not a solution after all.

I spent about an hour and a half on the phone today, starting with the 800 number I found for Johnson Control, and being sent hither and yon.

And in a loop! I ended up getting transferred, not to my knowledge, back to the same woman I had talked to at the beginning. That time she got her supervisor in the line.

The supervisor insisted that the AGM's they make for AutoZone are fully charged between 12.6 and 12.8v. She said that she was not confusing this with a flooded battery, that this really is how they make them.

Honestly, I wasn't sure whether to believe her or not. She said that they didn't have any published publicly available specs that I could look at, I just had to take her word for it.

What do you think, Mex? I know what Mr Tuna will say :)

Do you think all my screwing around has been for nothing and the first battery was actually ok?

If so, do you think I should keep this one that was at 12.39v when they gave it to me? Or do you think being run that low is going to make it permanently gimpy?

Back from time-intensive charger building...

The group 65 flooded is one of the problem children of the battery world. It's failure under warranty rate is the highest of any auto battery. Acid starvation and sloppy assembly. Loose as a goose plate fit that sleazes by in a group 24 or 27 is a death knell for the 65. Destined for use in Ford diesel motors, plates are crammed in. Look at the CCA for these critters. 850? 900?

It's side-kick is the flooded group 31. Common sense calculates the 65 should be limited to around 675 CCA using .030" plates and envelope separators. Try to find a quality brand flooded 65 with that spec.

Because of the very difference in nature between AGM and flooded, the former does not exhibit the flaw of the flooded variety.

Old and heavy group 27 batteries used to feature 525 CCA. And they endured.

The 34 is another snot rag design.

Light-duty in mild temperatures distill the durability and longevity of the 65. A coastal northern California climate and moderate daily driving will serve to make the 65 look like a champ. Take it somewhere with hot summers and the champ turns into a chump. Compare the weight of a 65 to a heavy 27. Now look at the price. The premium is for a shorter lifespan and possible warranty.

Battery failures cost me too much strain, pain, and money. So this tips the scale rather heavily in favor of the AGM. Ooooooo by the way, acid starvation accelerates antimony migration (poisoning). A generator of corrosive fumes without parallel. Dug around under the hood of a few dozen Ford diesel rigs? The corrosion is pathetic.

So it isn't a matter of whether AGM is "best". It's no contest. At least as far as the 65 and some brands of 29-30-31 is concerned.

Lifeline indeed makes a superior product. Is it needed? All of the features that make it superior? For duty as an engine starting battery? You would have a hard time convincing me.

Johnson Controls AGM batteries were (when I checked) made in China. But spiral cell AGM batteries are currently made in Mexico. So who knows?

An Odyssey, DEKA or Fullriver AGM should do the job nicely. Until proven otherwise I am avoiding Johnson Controls batteries.

I would have to say I would bet that a decent AGM will just whip the hell out of a flooded group 65 battery lifespan versus dollars. Daily cost.

The group 34 is yet another trashbag design. Reminds me to not be a hypocrite. My toad has a low CCA group 34. And betcha I'm going to do something to it before it does something to me.