EMS units are recommended for use with commercial power only

[Joel_T]

Commercial power being a campground pedestal, house or a general "grid" type power source. I think they're (Progressive Industries)OK with generators as long as they're ground/neutral bonded and put out a pure sine wave....not modified. Instructions also expressly say "Never plug the EMS into an inverter." In talking with a tech I sensed some wiggle room on this if using a pure sine inverter although this still could technically void warranty.

This really screws up my setup for multiple power sources through the hard wired unit. I now know I should have gotten a portable unit that's easily bypassed. The bypass switch on the hardwired unit doesn't bypass the surge protection board which is what potentially fries when confronted with modified sine wave power, whether generator or inverter.

[SoundGuy]

Winged One wrote:
FWIW, I contacted PI regarding using my EF3000ISEB several years ago.

Neither indicated any issue with using my generator, and in fact they both encouraged me to use the EMS device with my generator.

Joel_T wrote:
I'm surprised they made no mention of needing a pure sine output. I'd still like to know how to figure out whether a genny's putting out pure or modified.

Progressive does in fact say their EMS units must be used with a "true" sine wave signal, the exact words used in their Yamaha EF2000iS disclaimer, with no mention of "modified" sine wave. However, in his email response to myself the Progressive CSR said -

"Concerning the use of a generator with an inverter, our EMS are designed to be used in the RV environment using a commercial power source. The hazard to our device when using an aftermarket generator, is that some provide a modified sine output, which can cause damage. Others provide a pure sine wave at all times, and others will switch to a modified sine wave under heavy loads. The portion of our units than can be damaged is the surge protect and is not bypassed using the bypass switch. Since there are many brands of generators on the market and numerous models I can not offer specific guidance on which one to select."

These are his words, not mine ... my suspicion however is that the CSR didn't really mean "modified" sine wave in it's truest sense but rather a sine wave that under some generator load and speed conditions can degrade to such an extent that the waveform exhibits sharp edges consistent with a modified waveform, which by definition is stepped and which is known to cause damage to their EMS units. Probably what he should have said is "non-sinusoidal" or "non-true sine wave", the words Progressive uses in it's Yamaha EF2000iS disclaimer.

Clearly some are confused by the differences between generators, be they inverter or synchronous, and battery powered inverters. Fossil fueled generators exist for the purpose of generating a waveform output that emulates power generated by conventional utilities and therefore by definition are "pure" sine wave, or more correctly "sine wave" since a sine wave in itself is "pure". My pet peeve - referring to a sine wave as "pure" sine wave is redundant, just as is referring to a water heater as a "hot" water heater - of course a water heater is a "hot" water heater, saying it doesn't make it any more so! :S Progressive has designed their EMS units to be used with a "pure" or "true" sine waveform, nothing else, and has made that clear - "... our EMS are designed to be used in the RV environment using a commercial power source."

Battery powered inverters are an entirely different kettle of fish, as they can be designed to output any type of waveform desired, be it square wave, modified sine wave, true sine wave, or anything between. These days there are probably far more modified sine wave inverters in use simply because they're relatively inexpensive to produce yet the waveform produced is "good enough" for powering many devices, especially resistive loads. There are however some devices that don't run well on anything less than true sine wave, induction motors being an example which will run less efficiently, hotter, and often noisier than they should ... ergo, the reason I chose a (true) sine wave inverter myself as my primary use for it is to power 120 vac fans in the camper.

Bottom line - concern over whether a generator produces a "pure" or "true" sine wave isn't the issue, it's whether it can maintain that sine wave output under all operating conditions, which Progressive claims the Yamaha EF2000iS cannot. It however is the only generator model so identified by Progressive so unless there's other proof out there somewhere I would have to assume that generators such as my Honda EU2000i or the class leading EU3000iS or even other similar Yamaha models do consistently produce a true sine wave output regardless of what speed they may happen to be running or load they may be supporting.

[Joel_T]

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
Every time I read these threads I gaze up at the ceiling and mutter "Thank God I built my own rig". So thanks everone. It starts my day off wearing a smug look ony face.

LOL but that'd be boring...you'd only have yourself to argue with

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Every time I read these threads I gaze up at the ceiling and mutter "Thank God I built my own rig". So thanks everone. It starts my day off wearing a smug look ony face.

[Joel_T]

Yea, I know. It'll probably be that way though until I replace the bottom inverter. Then I'll probably use a 3 position switch of some sort.

[beemerphile1]

Joel_T wrote:

Easier said than done now that everything's in the front passthrough.

That is not proper use of Romex and I hope it is only a temporary setup for testing. Romex is meant to be hardwired in a manner that prevents flexing. Putting a plug on it and moving it occasionally should not be done. You should replace that Romex with flexible wiring.

[MrWizard]

if you have a Synchronous aka NON-Inverter generator it is "Sine Wave"
they can not produce anything else
a super cheap one with diode based voltage control can produce a distorted sine wave
but it is sine wave NOT modified square wave
NO rotating generator head can produce a MSW wave form
that takes switching electronics, cheap switching electronics

[Joel_T]

Winged One wrote:
FWIW, I contacted PI regarding using my EF3000ISEB several years ago.

...........

Neither indicated any issue with using my generator, and in fact they both encouraged me to use the EMS device with my generator.

I'm surprised they made no mention of needing a pure sine output. I'd still like to know how to figure out whether a genny's putting out pure or modified.

[Joel_T]

smkettner wrote:
Not sure what I see. Two inverters?

How hard is it to pull romex to the breaker panel?

Yep, 2 inverters. The bottom one will eventually get replaced with a 2000w pure sine of some sort.

Notice the added 30A outside receptacle, for my shore cord that's supposed to get the power back to the panel instead of pulling romex. Until I get a pure sine I guess I'll have to use an extension cord.

[Winged_One]

FWIW, I contacted PI regarding using my EF3000ISEB several years ago.

To: Info
Subject: EMS-HW50C and Yamaha 3000ISEB

Hello,

I have installed an EMS-HW50C in my 5th wheel.

I also have a Yamaha 3000ISEB generator that I use with the 5th.

However, I have noticed I have to flip the switch to turn off the EMS on the remote monitor of the EMS or I do not get any power into the trailer.

Is there a way to get around this and use my Yamaha and still have the protection of the EMS?

Or because I am solely connected to the Yamaha, do I not need to worry about protection with the EMS?



I received the following back:

Hello, Regarding the use of an aftermarket generator, yours is a common problem. It is caused by the fact that there is no connection between the generator and chassis ground, this is seen as an open ground by our device. This message has a pdf file attached that will show you how to solve this problem. Once you do this there will be no need to switch the HW50 off and you will have full protection again. Thank you for using our product. Regards, Donald Customer Service



The pdf was how to make a ground/neutral plug. I got the same message also from Thomas (not sure if I should include last name) at PI.

Neither indicated any issue with using my generator, and in fact they both encouraged me to use the EMS device with my generator.

[creeper]

Why couldn't you just use their Bypass switch when using other sources?

[otrfun]

SoundGuy wrote:

otrfun wrote:
Are there any confirmed failures caused by using a PSW inverter or inverter generator with a PI EMS?

Page 3 of the Progressive Industries EMS-HW30C / EMS-HW50C owner's manual says to NEVER plug their EMS into an inverter. As far as a generator is concerned - yes, there's that Yamaha EF2000iS warranty disclaimer from Progressive that ought to be sufficient proof that this is also a real concern.

Since modified sine wave has been identified by Progressive as the death knell for any of their EMS units it stands to reason that modified sine wave produced by any source, be it a generator or an inverter, is to be avoided when using one of their EMS units. However, assuming the inverter in question produces pure sine wave one would think it wouldn't be any different than an inverter generator producing pure sine wave BUT there is a caveat - not all inverter designs are the same. Some are designed with a 60/60 centre bonded neutral output, in which case one can't add a neutral / ground bond, so it's not just a simple matter of trying it to see if it works, you first have to know the specifics of the particular inverter you want to use with your EMS.

Yeah, I saw that warning, too. That why I called PI like everyone else to get a clarification. I just happened to get the owner on the line. He was covering for his tech for lunch. He admitted the inverter warning was probably applicable to MSW inverters, but wasn't absolutely sure. He told me "not to worry', to go ahead and try my PSW inverter and inverter generator to see what would happen. If it toasted he promised me an overnight replacement--lol! No drama ensued---worked fine.

Pretty surprising to hear the Yamaha EF2000iS' output degrades that badly. There is a pretty significant difference between a modified sine wave and pure sine wave. Even my wife was surprised at how "nasty" a MSW looks on a scope.

In any case, I've seen more deviation in some commercial power waveforms then I've observed in my PSW inverter or Champion inverter generator when under no/full load. The only time there's any issue is when the Champion ramps up to start an inductive load. The waveform does distort to a somewhat sawtooth shape for about 250ms.

I realize not everyone has access to a scope to verify waveform quality. But, if I was playin' the odds game, I'd venture to say the vast, vast majority of PSW inverters and inverter generators would pose no issue to the PI EMS.

[CA_Traveler]

For reference both of my Onan's have the neutral and ground bonded so when the ATS switches to gen they are bonded in all rig downstream circuits. All grounds are bonded back to the power cord so if plugged in the rig is also earth grounded. My understanding is that this is common for built in gens.

My Magnum charger/inverter also has it's own ATS and when the inverter is on it bonds the neutral and ground on it's 2 output circuits.

Otherwise the neutral and ground bonding occur back at the CG service panel.

[SoundGuy]

otrfun wrote:
Are there any confirmed failures caused by using a PSW inverter or inverter generator with a PI EMS?

Page 3 of the Progressive Industries EMS-HW30C / EMS-HW50C owner's manual says to NEVER plug their EMS into an inverter. As far as a generator is concerned - yes, there's that Yamaha EF2000iS warranty disclaimer from Progressive that ought to be sufficient proof that this is also a real concern.

Since modified sine wave has been identified by Progressive as the death knell for any of their EMS units it stands to reason that modified sine wave produced by any source, be it a generator or an inverter, is to be avoided when using one of their EMS units. However, assuming the inverter in question produces pure sine wave one would think it wouldn't be any different than an inverter generator producing pure sine wave BUT there is a caveat - not all inverter designs are the same. Some are designed with a 60/60 centre bonded neutral output, in which case one can't add a neutral / ground bond, so it's not just a simple matter of trying it to see if it works, you first have to know the specifics of the particular inverter you want to use with your EMS.

[SoundGuy]

Joel_T wrote:
Don't know which Honda 2000 they were referring to but they're saying it's "OK" as long as it's ground/neutral bonded.

Progressive's concern isn't over bonding the floating neutral output of such a genset (despite the EMS owner's manual indicating otherwise) but rather that some gensets, the Yamaha EF2000iS in particular, not the Honda EU2000i, can produce a modified sine waveform under some circumstances, ergo the reason they'll void warranty on any of their EMS units used with a Yamaha EF2000iS.

After viewing Mike Sokol's video in which he demonstrated how bonding the output of a Honda EU3000iS would allow a Progressive Industries EMS-HW30C to accept the signal and pass it through to the EMS output I decided to go ahead and bond my EU2000i's output and feed it to my own EMS-HW30C. It works fine so that leaves me with the question as to whether I can similarly bond the output of my 1000 watt PSW inverter. If I read it correctly the inverter owner's manual says to never bond it's output and if this were a 60/60 inverter design that would make sense. However, this particular unit I have produces 120 vac only between hot and neutral so I suspect I can bond that neutral to ground so the EMS that I'd like to plug into it would accept the signal just as it now accepts the signal from my bonded EU2000i. I'm now just waiting to hear more from Mike on the subject before proceeding.

[otrfun]

Learjet wrote:
Funny for me this topic just popped up.

I just ran my new 5th wheel with my hardwired Progressive EMS and my my Champion Generator, it would only work in By-Pass mode because of the "E-2 Open Ground" error code.

I'm a little disappointed I can't use my EMS with a Generator to see all the good information on the remote display.

So will this hurt anything on the surge side with a non-inverter type generator?

If you use a "bonding plug" you can run your generator thru the PI EMS without having to use the bypass switch. You'll have full protection.

Been powering my TT and EMS with a Champion 75531i 2800w generator for hundreds of hours like this with no issues.