Help me make sense of the scale numbers

GPG52! wrote:
Not withstanding the weight scale issue (which is significant)
If the underlying question is "Is 1060 pounds simply too much difference even though I'm under the axle ratings?"
My answer would be YES to much difference;
In a perfect scenario front and rear trailer axles should be the same if not very close to the same.
GPG

ON EDIT: I had read wrong earlier, thus the reason for my edit. There is more weight on the rear axle as opposed to the front axle, though he's not over his axles weight rating...I'd still want to even out the load as much as I could between the front and rear axle on the 5er and one could do that by lowering the front of the 5er instead of running "nose high"...I understand OP has a dilemma with trying to do that. Might want to take combo to a hitch install business or someone that can help with this issue to have it done correctly

mpierce wrote:

NC Hauler wrote:

RCMAN46 wrote:
True pin weight is the difference of total truck weight with and without trailer attached. In the OP's case his hitch must be behind the centerline of the rear axle which results in unloading of the front axle.

Truck only is 5080 + 3380=8460

Truck with trailer is 4820+6080=10900

Thus the true pin is the difference of 2440.

Don't believe you're right on the pin weight number, ..You take the unloaded weight of the truck, you will get drive axle weight (rear axle)...then you hook the 5er up to the hitch and re weigh, the "PIN WEIGHT" of the 5er is considered the weight setting on the hitch, which is setting over or very near one's Rear axle..THUS the difference is what his empty weight of his rear axle was 3380, loaded it was 6080, thus pin weight is 6080,(the weight of the 5er setting in the hitch), less the unloaded weight of the drive 3380,(rear axle)...which give you 2700# of pin weight for his 5er


Look up what constitutes "pin weight"...I'm not talking total weight of the truck before and after, and even IF some weight were transferred to the front axle, (in which case, this one didn't), pin weight is still considered weight put ON the HITCH only.


One good point made by RCMAN46 was that possibly the OP weighed with slider hitch in back position...Definitely would skew the weight readings on front and rear axles, though Gross weight would remain the same.

Sorry, disagree, NC Hauler.

If I am reading it right, you are saying ONLY the wt increase on the rear axle counts as pin wt? I disagree. Say rear axle wt went up 2,000#, and front axle wt went up 1000# when you hooked up a trailer. You say the pin wt is 2,000#?

I disagree. Take the trailer off, put a bar up to the king pin, and put that on a scale. The pin wt will be 3,000#. Pin wt is the wt on the pin, total wt. Not just that which goes on the rear axle.

If one put the same trailer on a truck with the hitch farther back, and the front axle stays the same, the rear axle will go up 3,000#.

Does the SAME TRAILER have a 2,000# pin wt on one truck, but a 3,000# pin wt. on another?

Look up definition of "pin weight"...I understand what you are saying...If I add 3400 # to the rear axle and 100# to the front axle (I certainly hope front axle wouldn't pick up 1,000#:E)...., then "pin weight would be 3500#...I used to follow that logic to and argued it till I was blue in the face, BUT, from everything I've researched on the topic , it appears that "pin weight" is defined as the weight put ONTO the hitch...not going to argue the issue, each can believe what they want. I'm also talking about installing a hitch where recommended, doesn't matter the vehicle. Also talking about using a vehicle built to do the job of towing a particular 5er.

Bottom line, when the "so called experts", (not me, by any means), defined pin weight, they stated pin weight is the weight PUT ON THE HITCH...no matter where it's located in the bed of the truck, BUT, it's weight on the hitch, and that will be picked up when the truck is weighed and the weight is read on the rear axle...

We'll agree to disagree....when I weighed my truck ready to go steer axle was 5280, loaded with 5er it was 5460# (went up 180#), drive axle empty was 3860 with everything in truck but 5er wasn't hitched up, when 5er was hooked up, drive axle was 7200#, I had added 3400# ONTO my hitch, which is pretty much located over my rear axle...my pin weight is 3340#...I didn't add the extra 180# that went to the front axle because that isn't part of the definition of "pin weight"...but even "I" felt like pin weight might be 3340# plus the 180# that went on front axle making total "pin weight", 3520#...BUT again, that ISN"T the definition of "pin weight".

I really don't care how others install their hitch, just where mine is located and my weights. Most 5er hitches I've seen installed are either over the rear axle or just in front or behind it, but not by much...it's semantics. Guess good thing is, no matter how I figure it on MY truck, I'm not only under my trucks GVWR, but WELL under it's RAWR :)

I agree with the thought, but when I started digging some years back, Most so called "experts" that wrote on this topic and showed how to figure "pin weight" gave the definition that it was weight put onto the 5er hitch...which is normally known when rear axle, (drive axle) is weighed empty, then with 5er loaded......that's what I'll go by..

..surely your example of putting 1,000# more on the front axle was just that, an example:)

ON EDIT: This is just one of many "snippets" giving "definition of pin weight:"

" Tongue Weight or King Pin Weight, (also called Tongue Load) is the actual weight pressing down on the hitch ball by the trailer. The recommended amount of Tongue Weight is 10-15% of the GTW.
King Pin Weight (also called Pin Weight) is the actual weight pressing down on the fifth wheel hitch by the trailer. The recommended amount of King Pin Weight is 15-25% of the GTW.
These weights are added to the tow vehicle's GVW."

Not withstanding the weight scale issue (which is significant)
If the underlying question is "Is 1060 pounds simply too much difference even though I'm under the axle ratings?"
My answer would be YES to much difference;
In a perfect scenario front and rear trailer axles should be the same if not very close to the same.
GPG

I agree with MPierce. Pin weight is total weight added to the truck from the trailer to both the front and rear axles.. And in this case, the unloading of the front axle.

NC Hauler wrote:

RCMAN46 wrote:
True pin weight is the difference of total truck weight with and without trailer attached. In the OP's case his hitch must be behind the centerline of the rear axle which results in unloading of the front axle.

Truck only is 5080 + 3380=8460

Truck with trailer is 4820+6080=10900

Thus the true pin is the difference of 2440.

Don't believe you're right on the pin weight number, ..You take the unloaded weight of the truck, you will get drive axle weight (rear axle)...then you hook the 5er up to the hitch and re weigh, the "PIN WEIGHT" of the 5er is considered the weight setting on the hitch, which is setting over or very near one's Rear axle..THUS the difference is what his empty weight of his rear axle was 3380, loaded it was 6080, thus pin weight is 6080,(the weight of the 5er setting in the hitch), less the unloaded weight of the drive 3380,(rear axle)...which give you 2700# of pin weight for his 5er


Look up what constitutes "pin weight"...I'm not talking total weight of the truck before and after, and even IF some weight were transferred to the front axle, (in which case, this one didn't), pin weight is still considered weight put ON the HITCH only.


One good point made by RCMAN46 was that possibly the OP weighed with slider hitch in back position...Definitely would skew the weight readings on front and rear axles, though Gross weight would remain the same.

Sorry, disagree, NC Hauler.

If I am reading it right, you are saying ONLY the wt increase on the rear axle counts as pin wt? I disagree. Say rear axle wt went up 2,000#, and front axle wt went up 1000# when you hooked up a trailer. You say the pin wt is 2,000#?

I disagree. Take the trailer off, put a bar up to the king pin, and put that on a scale. The pin wt will be 3,000#. Pin wt is the wt on the pin, total wt. Not just that which goes on the rear axle.

If one put the same trailer on a truck with the hitch farther back, and the front axle stays the same, the rear axle will go up 3,000#.

Does the SAME TRAILER have a 2,000# pin wt on one truck, but a 3,000# pin wt. on another?

RCMAN46 wrote:
True pin weight is the difference of total truck weight with and without trailer attached. In the OP's case his hitch must be behind the centerline of the rear axle which results in unloading of the front axle.

Truck only is 5080 + 3380=8460

Truck with trailer is 4820+6080=10900

Thus the true pin is the difference of 2440.

Don't believe you're right on the pin weight number, ..You take the unloaded weight of the truck, you will get drive axle weight (rear axle)...then you hook the 5er up to the hitch and re weigh, the "PIN WEIGHT" of the 5er is considered the weight setting on the hitch, which is setting over or very near one's Rear axle..THUS the difference is what his empty weight of his rear axle was 3380, loaded it was 6080, thus pin weight is 6080,(the weight of the 5er setting in the hitch), less the unloaded weight of the drive 3380,(rear axle)...which give you 2700# of pin weight for his 5er


Look up what constitutes "pin weight"...I'm not talking total weight of the truck before and after, and even IF some weight were transferred to the front axle, (in which case, this one didn't), pin weight is still considered weight put ON the HITCH only.


One good point made by RCMAN46 was that possibly the OP weighed with slider hitch in back position...Definitely would skew the weight readings on front and rear axles, though Gross weight would remain the same.

I wonder also how the front is unloading with the trailer on. There may be some bad data. My scale weights were off due to the guy taking them when I wasn't in the TV.

Hitch maybe forward of drive axle but with your slider where is the center of King Pin when hitched?

Are your axle springs on top of axle tubes or on bottom of axle tubes?

If on bottom you could flip the axles....springs on top

If on bottom......do you have ANY extra holes in spring shackles where you could raise (use lower holes) trailer?

NO.......

Then in order to raise trailer you would have to have the shackles cut off of frame, a square tube (3", 4" etc) welded onto frame and then shackles welded back on.

There is an alignment kit (Correct Track) that when used will also result in a 2" lift.

The 1000# difference between front/rear trailer tires is placing higher load demand on rear tires and will cause early wear.
Nose high could account for some of the weight coming off truck front axle

And yes your pin weight is 2440# (give or take scale error) total truck/trailer minus truck

RCMAN46 wrote:

stro1965 wrote:

RCMAN46 wrote:
True pin weight is the difference of total truck weight with and without trailer attached. In the OP's case his hitch must be behind the centerline of the rear axle which results in unloading of the front axle.

Truck only is 5080 + 3380=8460

Truck with trailer is 4820+6080=10900

Thus the true pin is the difference of 2440.

Ahhh, I see, thank you. I can't figure out how it unloaded the steer axle, as the hitch IS a couple of inches forward of the trucks drive axle.

Bad scale data and as such we do not know what the true pin weight is.

I looked at all of your original scale numbers. Are you sure the slider was not in the rear position for both scale readings. The numbers indicate it may have been.

It is not uncommon for a scale to be off 20-40 lbs especially if the wind is blowing..

stro1965 wrote:

RCMAN46 wrote:
True pin weight is the difference of total truck weight with and without trailer attached. In the OP's case his hitch must be behind the centerline of the rear axle which results in unloading of the front axle.

Truck only is 5080 + 3380=8460

Truck with trailer is 4820+6080=10900

Thus the true pin is the difference of 2440.

Ahhh, I see, thank you. I can't figure out how it unloaded the steer axle, as the hitch IS a couple of inches forward of the trucks drive axle.

Bad scale data and as such we do not know what the true pin weight is.