Complaint about a dealer

stugpanzer wrote:
In retrospect in reading my own post and having time to do some reflection during my writing sessions, I think my frustration is multi-parted in that:

1) we traded a perfectly working coach.
2) we had many issues that we did not expect with this new (to us) coach.
3) The way we were treated for the work that was done, that I feel should have been taken care of before we even received the coach was unprofessional and not called for.
4) It seems at every turn, something is going wrong with this coach giving us the feeling of owning a lemon. I know they require maintenance but we didn't experience this many issues with our Damon.
5) My anger towards my RV Dealer is directly related to two things
a) their promise to deliver a 'like new' coach was not fulfilled and
b) after telling me to log the issues and that they would take care of them (which they did) but then to turn around and bill me for it, then rescind the bill only after complaining about getting the bill in the first place and then give me a lecture via email on what is and is not covered in a warranty and what my expectations of the warranty is.

As always once they got your money you became a liability not an assest

deltamaster wrote:

peaches&cream wrote:

BUTCHPHI wrote:
Give it up. You are being a PIA now.

x2

You have pissed them off and they have told you so. Pay to get it fixed. You are never going back to the selling dealer and they do not want you back. Part ways and get on with life.

Certainly an option. Thing is that the OP payed for a service when he purchased the rig. Should the OP just abandon that which he paid for? At this point the trust is gone but the contract still exists.

Granted the selling dealer is willing to fulfill their end of the contract, however there is a loss of percieved reliability on the part of the selling dealer considering the manner in which they dealt with the customer.

Instead f impressing confidence in the work to be performed and the abilities of the dealership to attend the customer's concerns they have impressed animosity toward the buyer instead... from the outset.

The selling dealer was initially quite understanding and cooperative until the first "bill" was tendered. When the buyer contested the bill things went south from there through condescension. Instead of addressing the buyer's concerns in a positive and confident manner the dealer instead used veiled threats and "Yelling" to get the point across that the buyer does not know what they are talking about or need. This does not instill confidence in the ability of the selling dealer to properly repair the brake system.

You can "what if" this situation forever. OP has no confidence in the repair selling dealer is willing to preform. WHY let anyone perform a service you have no confidence in. Selling dealer is not willing to compromise by helping pay part of the charges. Let the service center you have confidence in do the work, pay for it, and then hold them responsible for anything that may happen. Also remember that only 2 things in life are truly guaranteed "taxes and death".

peaches&cream wrote:

BUTCHPHI wrote:
Give it up. You are being a PIA now.

x2

You have pissed them off and they have told you so. Pay to get it fixed. You are never going back to the selling dealer and they do not want you back. Part ways and get on with life.

Certainly an option. Thing is that the OP payed for a service when he purchased the rig. Should the OP just abandon that which he paid for? At this point the trust is gone but the contract still exists.

Granted the selling dealer is willing to fulfill their end of the contract, however there is a loss of percieved reliability on the part of the selling dealer considering the manner in which they dealt with the customer.

Instead f impressing confidence in the work to be performed and the abilities of the dealership to attend the customer's concerns they have impressed animosity toward the buyer instead... from the outset.

The selling dealer was initially quite understanding and cooperative until the first "bill" was tendered. When the buyer contested the bill things went south from there through condescension. Instead of addressing the buyer's concerns in a positive and confident manner the dealer instead used veiled threats and "Yelling" to get the point across that the buyer does not know what they are talking about or need. This does not instill confidence in the ability of the selling dealer to properly repair the brake system.

Ramair wrote:
After eating the popcorn and drinking a beer, I can see both perspectives I understand where you are coming from but sounds to me that you are trying to tell the dealership how to fix the problem, because you are talking to another service center. I have build custom ski boats for 13 + years and I would not like it if someone was trying to tell me how to build it that has never built one before and the only information he was getting is from another person. Be like me tell you have to do your job!! Take it to them if it does not fix the issue then its up to the to fix again..
That's my opinion.. Hope it all works out for you..

I can understand you perspective if it were just some "Joe" off the street, however, in this case the OP is relaying the opinion and experience of an authorized service center to the selling dealer.

It seems to me that all the Op wishes is for the system to be repaired properly. Sure, if the selling dealer does not repair it properly then the OP can get it done again but most people do not want to have to go back time and again for the same repair. Seems to me that the OP wants to have it done properly and effectively the first time. It also seems to me the OP does not wish to be surprised at some point if the repair is not effective and the parking brake fails and the rig starts rolling around uncontrolled.

What if the selling dealer cobbles together a repair that works in the shop but fails in the field? What if it fails while the OP is in a store and the rig is parked in a sloped lot? What if the rig rolls in to another parked vehicle and causes several thousand dollars in damage or injures or kills someone while he is blissfully shopping away in the store?

The OP wants some peace of mind at this point and feels the selling dealer needs to pay for it or at least part of it since the selling dealer is self warranting the unit.

stugpanzer wrote:


Wow! This is a shocking reply. All caps so you are yelling at me. How do you suppose that makes a two time customer of yours feel? Or perhaps you don't care.

All I am trying to do is understand what needs to happen. Mark at Coffmans sent me the excerpt of the Workhorse manual. I want the repair done correctly. Mark has a call into the RV Dealer Owner and I really hope they talk.

Meanwhile can you please detail what you feel is the fix so I may understand since you seem to have your own idea on the solution?

I received this last email form the RV Dealer owner:

I understand your concern, and yes I was yelling at you. Trying to get the point across that you are not a mechanic and we are. We fully understand the park brake system and can repair it to proper function for a few hundred dollars not a few thousand. Enough explaining I did get the voice mail from Mark, I disagree with his thought of putting a whole new brake assy. On . If you want it fixed and working bring the motorhome here.

I have not replied yet as I am thinking about what I want to say. Suffice to say, I am through with this dealer! I am capable of paying the repair bill. If I couldn't, I would not own an RV! He has successfully shattered any remaining trust in what he/they can do for me. I would rather pay a large bill than to come begging for a couple hundred dollar repair!

This whole experience has drained me and I am just tired. By the way, the service center I have the RV to which you have seen mentioned is Coffman Truck Sales in Aurora, Illinois. They are considered one of the best truck repair facilities in the area. The have been in business since the 1940's and service everything from small trucks up to tractor trailer trucks and yes, they service many brands of RV's and are a Workhorse service center. many of my friends and family have had vehicles serviced there with no issues. I have the utmost confidence in their work.

I will follow-up after I decide to send my last email to the RV dealer. I really need to think about what I wnat to say and I will be sure to share it here.

I am still hesitant to say who the dealer is but will think on that as well.

More to come in a day or three!!

All this makes me wonder if your selling dealer would be willing to sign a liability waiver holding them responsible for any damage, injury or death as the result of the parking brake system failure subsequent to their "Couple hundred dollar" repair that they suggest.

If the part can not be sourced without the pump then where are they sourcing the part?

Are they scavenging it from another failed unit?

THEN they mention a deductible? What deductible? Is there a deductible in the contract? I would think the unit should have worked properly more than just the first time out... the first time you used it.

I also agree that it was poor form for the selling dealer to yell at you "Trying to get the point across that you are not a mechanic and we are." Good idea for them to belittle the customer!

Just because you are not a mechanic does not mean that you are not educating yourself in these matters.

For all intents and purposes I could very well say I am more of a mechanic than you BUT that is a far stretch for me to call myself the world's most knowledgeable mechanic in these matters. Rubs me a little wrong when someone uses such language to promote themselves and their abilities after the previous dialog.

That is not to say they may or may not be able to effect an appropriate repair. How long will it last, though? How long will they warranty that repair? What do you do if it fails again? What do you do if the next time it fails someone is hurt or something is damaged? What if you set the brake, go away for a while and return to find your rig has rolled in to a tree or a bus full of Nuns or kids? Who deals with the aftermath, you or the repairing dealer?

Will the workhorse certified repair center guarantee their work?

Will the selling (and warranty holding) dealer guarantee his work?

Brake systems are not something to fool around with. Were I not fully confident in my abilities I would NOT repair or replace the brake parts on my own vehicles. Fortunately I have decades of experience and practice working on car and truck brake systems so I am confident in my abilities, however, given the complexity of your system as you describe I would be leery of repairing your parking brake system for you. I might do it for myself but still, the moment I was in over my head I would find someone that knew exactly what they were doing. Short of that I would defer to the service manual and if the manual says to replace all the parts including the pump I would suck it up and do just that.

I am not liking the selling dealer's attitude in this and if I were you and I finally decided to let the selling dealer effect repairs I would likely be right along side watching and documenting every step of the repair just to CMA.

I know this sounds extreme but if I park on a slope and set the brake I want to be confident it is and will stay set to prevent any damage or injury.

BUTCHPHI wrote:
Give it up. You are being a PIA now.

x2

You have pissed them off and they have told you so. Pay to get it fixed. You are never going back to the selling dealer and they do not want you back. Part ways and get on with life.

Give it up. You are being a PIA now.

After eating the popcorn and drinking a beer, I can see both perspectives I understand where you are coming from but sounds to me that you are trying to tell the dealership how to fix the problem, because you are talking to another service center. I have build custom ski boats for 13 + years and I would not like it if someone was trying to tell me how to build it that has never built one before and the only information he was getting is from another person. Be like me tell you have to do your job!! Take it to them if it does not fix the issue then its up to the to fix again..
That's my opinion.. Hope it all works out for you..

Just take it to them, and let them fix it. Sounds like the thing to do at this point. If you don't want to pay the full amount. Give them a chance. They may fool you, and know what they are doing. I would give it a try!!!!

I have had quite a day today dealing with the service center and my RV dealer for the park brake issue. After all the dust has settled, I am shocked about what has transpired.

I am a systems analyst so I tend to be very analytical. In order for me to understand something, I will ask a lot of questions. Some may be out in left field, but its always geared to allow me better understanding. The following is what happened today.

I received an email from the service manager from the RV dealer as follows:

I have talked to the owner and head mechanic and they both told me they do not think that the complete assembly needs replaced. If you hear noise then that means that the pump is still working. Could you bring it to us?

(Note, I removed the actual names of the owner and the head mechanic name).

I called the Service center where my coach is and got clarification. They read the part of the Workhorse service manula that states the entire park brake system needs to be replaced. It seems it is the only way to get the required parts from Workhorse. Its an all or nothing deal.

I then replied to the RV dealer with the following:

OK, now I understand what is going on. Apparently the kit for fixing the parking brake issue comes with the pump. Are you saying you can get all the parts needed minus the actual pump?

To which they replied:

You can get parts for this system rather than replacing the complete unit. I actually called the workhorse dealer that we deal with just to do a price comparison and they told me that they don’t even show where they can get the part that Coffman’s wants to replace. It isn't showing any in the warehouses and that they were going to have to do some digging to find one. I didn’t have them go any farther cause I don’t think that we need one like I said I was just checking the price on how much one would be to compare it to what they were estimating. The owner and head mechanic have a couple ideas on what it could be but until we can see it they are not positive. Over the years we have worked on quite a few Auto park systems so Tom and Nick know them really well.

I then called the service manager and asked about partial coverage for what my service center wants to do and she said why would they if that's not the problem. I asked her if she could get the head mechanic to talk to the mechanic at the service center so everybody can be on the same page and she said she would see what she could do. I also asked her if they were a Workhorse srvice center/dealer and she said they were not but they can service them. They would get parts from places like where my coach is now.

Meanwhile, earlier in the morning I sent oldusedbear the following:

Roger,
You sent me to Brazel's and I talked to Alan. He was great in educating me.

I do have a follow-up question for you.

I took my coach to a Workhorse Service Center. They are saying that the entire park barke assembly, including the pump needs replacing. My RV Dealer whom holds the extended warranty says that the pump does not need to be replaced since it seems to still function. My Service Center states that that is the only way to get the parts and that that whole assembly also comes with the pump. Is that true? Can I just get the parts needed (actual park brake parts) and not replace the pump as my RV dealer is stating?

He replied with:

I'd ask Jon or Alan at Brazels that same question. Years back, the J72 system like you have was well supported by Chev/Workhorse and Carlisle. But as time went by, these participants seemed to get mad at each other, I guess that Workhorse "crashed" (for whatever the reasons) and the support went to hell - - again I don't know the fine print because we've never pretended we knew anything about this J72. If I remember correctly, there was a period when it seemed like nobody knew anything about parts or service. Then we heard that Carlisle would build a limited number of systems and sell them as a complete unit. Several owners started working on their own with varying amounts of success. There were guys on the forums trading parts and ideas and many of them reported back that they got things going. One of the more frequent failures seemed to concern the analog computer device they used to control the system. Damned thing was potted in plastic or tar so was impossible to troubleshoot. I think that they finally became available again and that Brazel's may stock them.

Bottom line - - I would be leery of what the Workhorse people say - - and I'd be far more likely to trust Brazel's on this subject. I'm sorry I don't know more about it but that's pretty much the extent of my knowledge on the subject.

I then called Brazel's and after some more education I felt that perhaps the issues is with the controller.

I sent the following to my RV dealer:

I think I am finally understanding where you are coming from.

I spoke to Brazel's in Washington State and those guys are also expert in this Autobrake thing.

It turns out that when the control module goes bad, that workhorses solution is to replace the pump because that module is connected to the pump! Workhorse does not sell that module seperately anymore. It turns out that Workhorse does not have the part available just as your Workhorse guy said. It would be available in mid-December! I asked Coffmans to look at this part: https://www.brazelsrv.com/j72-control-module-replacement-kit

Do you think you guys would consider covering some of the cost on the replacement of that control module?


Please understand that I am not a mechanic nor am I master mechanic. I trust people that are trained in those fields to do the work I need and to do it properly. My analytical mind has been trying to get to the bottom of the best way to handle this.

With that said, I received the following from the service manager on behalf of the RV dealer owner. The following is not changed in any way other than I omitted the owners name and the business name:

I HAVE READ ALL THIS STUFF. WE ARE THE WORLDS MOST KNOWLEDGEABLE WORKHIORSE REPAIR FACILITY. NOW WITH THAT SAID IF YOU WANT TO HAVE COFFMANS FIX IT. GO AHEAD AND YOU WILL HAVE TO PAY THE BILL IN FULL WITH NO WARRANTY COVERAGE AT ALL. IF YOU WANT THE SYSTEM FIXED FOR ONLY THE DEDUCTIBLE YOU WILL HAVE TO BRING IT HERE PERIOD. WHILE USING THE MOTORHOME WITHOUT AN OPERATIONAL PARK BRAKE EVERY TIME YOU STOP YOU WILL NEED TO PUT THE FRONT JACKS DOWN TO KEEP THE MOTORHOME FROM ROLLING. THANKS OWNERS NAME BUSINESS NAME , YOU CAN CALL ME IF YOU WANT BUT THE DECISION IS FINAL.

I was shocked and very disappointed. I had a business for 20 years and I never treated a customer as I have been treated by this place! I have been angry at customers but never did I make them fell like they were some idiotic spec of dust!

I replied with the following:

Wow! This is a shocking reply. All caps so you are yelling at me. How do you suppose that makes a two time customer of yours feel? Or perhaps you don't care.

All I am trying to do is understand what needs to happen. Mark at Coffmans sent me the excerpt of the Workhorse manual. I want the repair done correctly. Mark has a call into the RV Dealer Owner and I really hope they talk.

Meanwhile can you please detail what you feel is the fix so I may understand since you seem to have your own idea on the solution?

I received this last email form the RV Dealer owner:

I understand your concern, and yes I was yelling at you. Trying to get the point across that you are not a mechanic and we are. We fully understand the park brake system and can repair it to proper function for a few hundred dollars not a few thousand. Enough explaining I did get the voice mail from Mark, I disagree with his thought of putting a whole new brake assy. On . If you want it fixed and working bring the motorhome here.

I have not replied yet as I am thinking about what I want to say. Suffice to say, I am through with this dealer! I am capable of paying the repair bill. If I couldn't, I would not own an RV! He has successfully shattered any remaining trust in what he/they can do for me. I would rather pay a large bill than to come begging for a couple hundred dollar repair!

This whole experience has drained me and I am just tired. By the way, the service center I have the RV to which you have seen mentioned is Coffman Truck Sales in Aurora, Illinois. They are considered one of the best truck repair facilities in the area. The have been in business since the 1940's and service everything from small trucks up to tractor trailer trucks and yes, they service many brands of RV's and are a Workhorse service center. many of my friends and family have had vehicles serviced there with no issues. I have the utmost confidence in their work.

I will follow-up after I decide to send my last email to the RV dealer. I really need to think about what I wnat to say and I will be sure to share it here.

I am still hesitant to say who the dealer is but will think on that as well.

More to come in a day or three!!