Safari Serengeti

Two Jayhawks wrote:
Greetings
My Zanzibar 3906 was approximately 40' and it did have the C12/Allison 4000. I had the 5" tubes on the rear and I suspect they were still a bit undersized for the weight (about 19K). The coach only had about 50K miles when they failed. After replacement the coach rode good as new. I stored the coach at my business, indoors, heated, jacks deployed, and that's where we did the work. I do have some rather dark lousy pictures I could share if you want to PM me your email address. I had purchased all mods, Trac bar, radius rods, as well as the new springs from Pioneer. If I had kept the coach I would have added their air bag set up. We wanted a larger coach so I sold it last summer. I hired a tech to work with me to do the spring change out. It took us about four days total to change out the rear the fronts were still fine. we were at a slight disadvantage as Monaco was of very little assistance. BTW Monaco claimed only 6 Zanzibars were built with the C12 set up. Lastly I talked to the gentleman that owns the Zanzibar about a month ago. My heart broke when he told me one of the rear tubes had just failed. Yes I see you were spot on with being better off with sulastic over old inventory. Regardless I am quite upset he is going through this. As you would imagine my thoughts are why bother with torsilastic at all just go with air ride in the first place.

Wow! It is great to learn something new! I did not know that they made Zanzibar models with the big C12, and I also did not know that they used the 5 inch tubes.
The secondary failure you describe leads me to believe that those 5 inch tubes were/are defective. The reason being is, there is a fellow I know in AZ who owns a '99 Panther with the C12 in it and torsional suspension. His torsion tubes are 4 inch and are original. Granted, they are on their way out, (he is down to one or two shims on some corners), but the weaker 4 inch tubes are still holding up under that stress. This leads me to believe that BF Goodrich had some manufacture issues at the tail end of their production. There is NO WAY the second set of tubes should have failed, being the stronger ones and low use. It seems that the later model coaches, like your '02 Zanzibar had the most issues, further leading me to believe that BF Goodrich was likely having issues towards the end of their production run, or at least during that time frame.


Did you replace the shackles when you replaced the tubes???

How did his spring fail? Did it completely collapse, or is he out of shims and border line on ride height?

Please pass on the info to current owner about Sulastic and about the 4 and 8 airbag kits. I know that Henderson's installs them and would probably sell them direct if the owner wants to do the work himself.

Please describe the process you went through changing the tubes. I know the Zanzibar owner who had all for of his tubes replaced back in 2012 at Redlands,took a lot of pictures. They used a special tool to load the springs. But the fellow who replaced his front tubes on his Foretravel, figured out how to safely do it w/o using the special tool. So I'm all ears (and eyes, once I get the photos). ;)

Yes, I would love photos and any and all information on how you did this.

I sent you a PM...

John

Two Jayhawks wrote:
Safaribeachouse & crasster

Gents I want to respond even though I believe the OP has moved on. I was a happy Safari owner. Frankly Safari built a coach that is as high quality as my Newmar. BTW Safari built a lot of coaches and luckily not a lot were equipped with the velvet ride so yes there are tons of happy owners. My experience was not positive with the velvet ride suspension. Very early on (around 2004)I added $1500 in mods to aid in poor handling. In 2012 I suffered rear torsilastic spring failure. I knew about Sulastic then but was able to get OE so I went that way. Regardless the repair was costly (around $5K). So IMO by all means I would recommend a Safari to anyone. However I would NOT recommend a Safari with the velvet ride suspension. Regardless of the availability of non OE suspension parts being available, I just feel like there are too many (non torsilastic) used coaches available that will be easier on the check book.

Thank you for the feedback. Will make a mental note of it. :)

Safaribeachouse wrote:

Two Jayhawks wrote:
Safaribeachouse & crasster

Gents I want to respond even though I believe the OP has moved on. I was a happy Safari owner. Frankly Safari built a coach that is as high quality as my Newmar. BTW Safari built a lot of coaches and luckily not a lot were equipped with the velvet ride so yes there are tons of happy owners. My experience was not positive with the velvet ride suspension. Very early on (around 2004)I added $1500 in mods to aid in poor handling. In 2012 I suffered rear torsilastic spring failure. I knew about Sulastic then but was able to get OE so I went that way. Regardless the repair was costly (around $5K). So IMO by all means I would recommend a Safari to anyone. However I would NOT recommend a Safari with the velvet ride suspension. Regardless of the availability of non OE suspension parts being available, I just feel like there are too many (non torsilastic) used coaches available that will be easier on the check book.

Thank you for the feed back. From early on, most if not all Serengeti models were VelvetRide, most but not all Sahara's were Leaf Spring (EliptiRide), and until the late 90's most Continental models were VelvetRide too. By late 90's a lot of the Continental models were air ride like their Beaver coach cousins. So, on the contrary, most Safari coaches out there right now are VelvetRide. If you go on the various Safari yahoo groups, you will realize that the largest percentage is VelvetRide, and second inline is EliptiRide (leaf spring). There aren't that many with air ride on the group.

What model and length was your coach, and how many miles on it?
Who did the spring install?
Did you by any chance take pictures and document the install?
How was the ride after the new springs were installed?

Ironically, you were better off going with Sulastic brand, because like tires, these rubber springs age, and those OEM were laying on the shelf a very long time, and the Sulastic would have been freshly made, and they have tons of experience, as this type of suspension is very popular and successful in Mexico, due to their poor roads and poor budgets. VelvetRide has proven to be, by far, the most durable bus suspension to tolerate the terrible Mexican roads. These torsion springs are often known to go in excess of 1 million miles before they wear out. The same was for the torsion springs in Eagle buses, even though they were a different design.

It seems like failure is most often seen from overloading, and sometimes (very rarely) from defect. In the later years, the Safari coaches got much heavier, but Safari, in their desperation to keep costs down, never upgraded the springs to handle the heavier coaches. The most evident failures were the Continental Panther Models, that had the huge and heavy CAT C12 engine and the heavy Allison 4000 Series Transmission. The Zanzibar coaches were also very prone to failure, even though they didn't have the large engine/transmisson, but they were heavy. To give an example on how overloaded the springs were, the same springs were used on the early 90's Continental models, that back then, were built on an Oshkosh chassis and had a GVWR of only 22000, those coaches are over 20 years old and most never even had or needed a height adjustment. Now, in '94 Safari switched to their in house Magnum chassis using the same springs and the average GVWR was 26000, sometimes a bit more. By late 90's they were using the same springs on coaches that had GVWR ratings of 29000 to 33000! It is amazing that those springs held up as well as they did, considering the gross over-weight that they carried.
I am fortunate, my coach is a '95 and is not as heavy as the later models, and I have had zero issues with ride height and the springs themselves. I have all the shims up front, and a few less in the rear, that were taken out before my time. So, short of a freak failure like a collapsed spring, I have a long way to go, before I even come close to running out of shims for height adjustment.

At the time, did you consider getting an air bag system installed to supplement the weak/failing torsion springs? I know Pioneer Metal Works had a four bag kit back then, and now their is also an 8 air bag kit available.
If you don't mind, please give us as much detail as possible on your ordeal, so we can all learn from it.

I think, that unless the shackles are failing, it is cheaper and smarter to supplement with an airbag kit when the proper ride height can't be achieved. I would venture to guess, if you had leaf springs and they failed, the cost would be probably similar, but maybe I'm wrong...

Looking forward to your feedback and story of your replacement!

Greetings
My Zanzibar 3906 was approximately 40' and it did have the C12/Allison 4000. I had the 5" tubes on the rear and I suspect they were still a bit undersized for the weight (about 19K). The coach only had about 50K miles when they failed. After replacement the coach rode good as new. I stored the coach at my business, indoors, heated, jacks deployed, and that's where we did the work. I do have some rather dark lousy pictures I could share if you want to PM me your email address. I had purchased all mods, Trac bar, radius rods, as well as the new springs from Pioneer. If I had kept the coach I would have added their air bag set up. We wanted a larger coach so I sold it last summer. I hired a tech to work with me to do the spring change out. It took us about four days total to change out the rear the fronts were still fine. we were at a slight disadvantage as Monaco was of very little assistance. BTW Monaco claimed only 6 Zanzibars were built with the C12 set up. Lastly I talked to the gentleman that owns the Zanzibar about a month ago. My heart broke when he told me one of the rear tubes had just failed. Yes I see you were spot on with being better off with sulastic over old inventory. Regardless I am quite upset he is going through this. As you would imagine my thoughts are why bother with torsilastic at all just go with air ride in the first place.

Two Jayhawks wrote:
Safaribeachouse & crasster

Gents I want to respond even though I believe the OP has moved on. I was a happy Safari owner. Frankly Safari built a coach that is as high quality as my Newmar. BTW Safari built a lot of coaches and luckily not a lot were equipped with the velvet ride so yes there are tons of happy owners. My experience was not positive with the velvet ride suspension. Very early on (around 2004)I added $1500 in mods to aid in poor handling. In 2012 I suffered rear torsilastic spring failure. I knew about Sulastic then but was able to get OE so I went that way. Regardless the repair was costly (around $5K). So IMO by all means I would recommend a Safari to anyone. However I would NOT recommend a Safari with the velvet ride suspension. Regardless of the availability of non OE suspension parts being available, I just feel like there are too many (non torsilastic) used coaches available that will be easier on the check book.

Thank you for the feed back. From early on, most if not all Serengeti models were VelvetRide, most but not all Sahara's were Leaf Spring (EliptiRide), and until the late 90's most Continental models were VelvetRide too. By late 90's a lot of the Continental models were air ride like their Beaver coach cousins. So, on the contrary, most Safari coaches out there right now are VelvetRide. If you go on the various Safari yahoo groups, you will realize that the largest percentage is VelvetRide, and second inline is EliptiRide (leaf spring). There aren't that many with air ride on the group.

What model and length was your coach, and how many miles on it?
Who did the spring install?
Did you by any chance take pictures and document the install?
How was the ride after the new springs were installed?

Ironically, you were better off going with Sulastic brand, because like tires, these rubber springs age, and those OEM were laying on the shelf a very long time, and the Sulastic would have been freshly made, and they have tons of experience, as this type of suspension is very popular and successful in Mexico, due to their poor roads and poor budgets. VelvetRide has proven to be, by far, the most durable bus suspension to tolerate the terrible Mexican roads. These torsion springs are often known to go in excess of 1 million miles before they wear out. The same was for the torsion springs in Eagle buses, even though they were a different design.

It seems like failure is most often seen from overloading, and sometimes (very rarely) from defect. In the later years, the Safari coaches got much heavier, but Safari, in their desperation to keep costs down, never upgraded the springs to handle the heavier coaches. The most evident failures were the Continental Panther Models, that had the huge and heavy CAT C12 engine and the heavy Allison 4000 Series Transmission. The Zanzibar coaches were also very prone to failure, even though they didn't have the large engine/transmisson, but they were heavy. To give an example on how overloaded the springs were, the same springs were used on the early 90's Continental models, that back then, were built on an Oshkosh chassis and had a GVWR of only 22000, those coaches are over 20 years old and most never even had or needed a height adjustment. Now, in '94 Safari switched to their in house Magnum chassis using the same springs and the average GVWR was 26000, sometimes a bit more. By late 90's they were using the same springs on coaches that had GVWR ratings of 29000 to 33000! It is amazing that those springs held up as well as they did, considering the gross over-weight that they carried.
I am fortunate, my coach is a '95 and is not as heavy as the later models, and I have had zero issues with ride height and the springs themselves. I have all the shims up front, and a few less in the rear, that were taken out before my time. So, short of a freak failure like a collapsed spring, I have a long way to go, before I even come close to running out of shims for height adjustment.

At the time, did you consider getting an air bag system installed to supplement the weak/failing torsion springs? I know Pioneer Metal Works had a four bag kit back then, and now their is also an 8 air bag kit available.
If you don't mind, please give us as much detail as possible on your ordeal, so we can all learn from it.

I think, that unless the shackles are failing, it is cheaper and smarter to supplement with an airbag kit when the proper ride height can't be achieved. I would venture to guess, if you had leaf springs and they failed, the cost would be probably similar, but maybe I'm wrong...

Looking forward to your feedback and story of your replacement!

Safaribeachouse & crasster

Gents I want to respond even though I believe the OP has moved on. I was a happy Safari owner. Frankly Safari built a coach that is as high quality as my Newmar. BTW Safari built a lot of coaches and luckily not a lot were equipped with the velvet ride so yes there are tons of happy owners. My experience was not positive with the velvet ride suspension. Very early on (around 2004)I added $1500 in mods to aid in poor handling. In 2012 I suffered rear torsilastic spring failure. I knew about Sulastic then but was able to get OE so I went that way. Regardless the repair was costly (around $5K). So IMO by all means I would recommend a Safari to anyone. However I would NOT recommend a Safari with the velvet ride suspension. Regardless of the availability of non OE suspension parts being available, I just feel like there are too many (non torsilastic) used coaches available that will be easier on the check book.

I think people mean well trying to be helpful, and when they don't have the full picture, so to speak, or all the information needed, they default into a warning mode, with the "good intention" logic being "better safe then sorry". Humans tend to be afraid of the unknown, and in the case of the odd torsional suspension that many Safari coaches have, good intentions coupled with fear and/or ignorance fester into a taboo rumor mill. I guess the good side is, the ones that do there research can get an awesome coach for pennies on the dollar. The bad side is, the ones that have small budgets, are not good at doing research, and don't know a lot, miss out on a great coach with in there budgets. You just can't win them all. I know that I am very happy and thankful that my wife stumbled on our Safari. I could not have asked for a better roomier layout in a quality coach package, and it has served us very well over the years. Knowing how great these coaches are, I try to be as informative on the things I know about them as I possibly can, the rest is up to each individual.

BTW, nice Toyota RV, and pretty impressive mileage. :-)

Safaribeachouse wrote:
"John

I Highly recommend passing on the Safari with Velvet Ride as the suspension replacement parts availability is dicey. If the suspension is healthy (none of the tubes have failed) yes you can add air ride. There is even a kit available. The guy that bought my Safari was doing exactly that. IMO unless the deal is just crazy good I would just pass altogether."

Bill,

I know this post is late, but just so everyone knows for future reference, and not to scare people away from the wonderful Safari Coaches. In the very rare case that the torsion springs would fail, there is a company that makes the torsion springs and the shackles for the Safaris coaches with the VelvetRide torsional suspension. The company is Sulastic.
http://www.sulastic.com/books
With all the Safaris still on the road that are well over 15 years old, many over 20, I have heard of only two cases of complete failure. One was on a '01 Zanzibar that was replaced in early 2012, and one on a Fortravel. The one with the Zanzibar was extremely happy with his results, with the last update back in mid 2015. So it is not as scary and taboo as some might think. :-)

John

Thank you for the info. This is a perfect example of the rumor mill. There are so many happy Safari owners and a coach that I really like. When there is a slight flaw in something, sometimes it just spills on and on by mouth (and fingers), and the molehill is now a mound.

Every owner that I have met likes them.

"John

I Highly recommend passing on the Safari with Velvet Ride as the suspension replacement parts availability is dicey. If the suspension is healthy (none of the tubes have failed) yes you can add air ride. There is even a kit available. The guy that bought my Safari was doing exactly that. IMO unless the deal is just crazy good I would just pass altogether."

Bill,

I know this post is late, but just so everyone knows for future reference, and not to scare people away from the wonderful Safari Coaches. In the very rare case that the torsion springs would fail, there is a company that makes the torsion springs and the shackles for the Safaris coaches with the VelvetRide torsional suspension. The company is Sulastic.
http://www.sulastic.com/books
With all the Safaris still on the road that are well over 15 years old, many over 20, I have heard of only two cases of complete failure. One was on a '01 Zanzibar that was replaced in early 2012, and one on a Fortravel. The one with the Zanzibar was extremely happy with his results, with the last update back in mid 2015. So it is not as scary and taboo as some might think. :-)

John

jassrnj wrote:
I'm looking at a 1999 Safari Serengeti - I know there are problems with the velvet ride and I want to be sure of what I'm getting.
If ride height is the problem how can I tell how high it is suppose to be. How does the problem effect the stability and handling of the RV . What are the solutions for resolving problems with the Velvet Ride system. Can I add air bags to compensate for the problems

Thanks for you info.

John

I Highly recommend passing on the Safari with Velvet Ride as the suspension replacement parts availability is dicey. If the suspension is healthy (none of the tubes have failed) yes you can add air ride. There is even a kit available. The guy that bought my Safari was doing exactly that. IMO unless the deal is just crazy good I would just pass altogether.

If ride height is lower than spec at any wheel position, count the number of the 1/4" inch shims in front of and behind that wheel position. Removing one shim from in front of and behind a wheel position RAISES that wheel position 1/4". So, if 1" low, remove 4 shims.

How to check:https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Safarifriends/files/Torsilastic%20Ride%20Height/

If ride height is significantly out of spec, it will ride poorly, wear suspension components and if in the rear, is really hard on the U joints.