Dual Cam Setup

I did a little more homework today. On a flat surface the bar binds on the ball shank bolt and/or nut turning in either direction. Also, I am able to to get to that binding point pulling forward with my crummy turning radius tow vehicle.

I have some photos, but it looks like PhotoBucket may be having issues. I'll add them when I can.

Now I'm thinking I should use the newer head with the raised ball mount AND the 1" raised ball as the primary head in an effort to avoid binding. I suspect the ball shank will still need to be cut, but at least the nut should clear the bar.

Is there any reason to jump through hoops to keep using that older welded head when I have the newer cast one?

WOW, detailed info - thanks! - now I have a little more homework to do.

JBarca wrote:


For a 6" wide A frame sure looks like what you have, you need a 1" hi rise tow ball with the Reese HP trunnion bar head.

Yes 6" "enclosed (tube?) rectangular frame.

JBarca wrote:

The hi rise tow ball "must" be stamped on top for the full GVWR of your camper or larger. Check that as some hi rise tow balls have very low ratings while others can be 25,000# goose neck tow balls.

The ball is 25,000 bare steel. The only other option I found was 10,000 lbs chrome. This seemed too low so I went with the bare steel and shot some clear lacquer on it to help prevent rust.

JBarca wrote:

Here are some limitations. You are doing well using the floor jack however there are other limiters in this. Shank length and TT front end design.

When using the jack it appeared that the the bars would bind on the ball shank. Part of my homework is to see what happens when the TV is hooked up. That will happen as soon as I can find an empty parking lot.

I spoke with the ball manufacturer, they said to trim the shank if necessary but use a sawsall or hacksaw and not a cutoff wheel. They didn't want to subject the ball to the heat generated from a cutoff wheel.

JBarca wrote:

See here. This is a measured 74 deg left turn. 90 degrees was mentioned and that is not going to happen on a TT with a 50 degree inclusive angle A frame.

With the floor jack, 90 would spit out one of the bars too.

JBarca wrote:

Your goal is to adjust the hitch the best you can and not have it be the binding point in a hard left turn. Pending the shank length and TT design, the tail light can crash into the camper before the hitch binds. Shorter shanks crash faster but offer a level of being slightly more stable. Longer shanks allow more degrees of turning to not hit the tail light but then the LP tanks are there.

That's what I'll shoot for. I think the right hand turn is going to be limited by the "wing" for the sway bar ball.

My shank has 2 holes, so it can be extended, but if it is extended it reduces the weight rating. I'll keep it at the higher rating and limit my turns accordingly.

JBarca wrote:

A 74 degree left turn going forward may be all the turning radius of your truck can do any way.

I think the turning radius is 50 feet. I can't imagine I can come close on a hard left turn.

JBarca wrote:

Backing up on the left side, well you can crash something and it may be the LP tanks with the bumper. There is also so much a conventional WD hitch can do in regards to turns. 74 degrees is good. You start going a lot past that and you going to break something in the hitch.

I'll have to see what hits first (more homework). I suspect that at 74 degrees I don't even have to worry about the bar hitting the ball shank.

JBarca wrote:

So that is optimizing a left turn. The right turn with your ball coupler will be limited to 65 degree right. See here. The friction sway bar arm is going to hit at 65 degrees. There is not a lot you can do about that. And "most" times you turn sharper left than right so it often is not a problem.

With the floor jack I could see that it would hit the frame and there's not too much that can be done short of cutting it down (not doing that).

I think these limitations will be hit mostly when trying to maneuver into a tight location. Hopefully I'll have a "spotter" who can watch for binding.

JBarca wrote:

I see you have shimmed out the cam arms with attempts of making the WD bar mate better with the cam. I have done this. You can see it here on my older camper

Yes, I tried to shim it to achieve the best fit between the bar and cam. It seemed strange that I had to shim in the opposite direction as you.

JBarca wrote:

However in my case I had square corner channel iron A frame and you have to shim out the frame plates so the bend radius of cam frame plate does not bind on the square corner of the frame. Even some tight radius tube frames may need a washer.

I had to use a washer to make room for the radius on the dual cam mount. That's why I have one thin washer in the front and two thick ones in the rear.

JBarca wrote:

What you need to do is mark the left and right WD bars and always use them on the same side. Over time they will wear to be a perfect match between the cam and WD bar.

This makes sense (another homework item).

JBarca wrote:

Now to the emergency breakaway switch, this should be set with the proper saftey chain length. This topic can get as much attention as gas verses diesel... See here for how I came to do this and why.
WD Hitch Safety Chains Hook Up (Pic's)

Thanks for the link. I also discovered that I have the same alternate hookup spot for the breakaway cable.

What's the best way to adjust the cable length short of moving the location on the TT?

JBarca wrote:

Your 2 style hitch heads. You have the older 3 piece welded head and the new 1 piece all cast head that replaced it. The all cast new head has a higher boss for the tow ball to give more ball nut clearance and a high ball platform to help with binding. The Hi rise tow ball does this on the older 3 piece style.

I put the raised ball on the 3 piece head (and have that as my "primary") and the regular ball on the cast head with the raised boss as a "backup".

JBarca wrote:

If you have a very loose fit between the shank and head on the all cast head, call Reese and they will send you a free shim is needed. Do not just tighten up the head trying to spring it closed. I have not seen or heard of any recent heads cracking like the once back in the early 2,000's which where before the 3 piece welded head. It seems Reese worked through what ever the issues were.

It's good to hear that these heads seem to be problem free. There was a reference to shims in the install kit, but no shims. I called Reese and let them know that even my 3 piece head was a little sloppy on the shank when tightened to spec (150ft lbs + 1/4 turn). They said that there should be no slop and send me some shims.I ended up with 1/2 shim on the 3 piece head.

JBarca wrote:

Oh and yes, like Barney says, set up the WD with the DC on. No need to set it up on the chains then start all over when you add the DC. I have set up many DC's and WD from the get go. It's not a problem. Don't know where you heard or read that as it seems out of context.

I thought I read it in the Reese instructions. Maybe what they were saying is to use the process from the WD instructions for setting up the DC system.

I ended up setting up the WD before drilling out the mounting holes by using a clamp and hand tightening the set screw on the inside of the frame.

JBarca wrote:

Hope this helps and good luck.

Yes, a huge help. Thanks for taking the time to get into such detail and provide lots of photos.

Hi Mrekim,

You have done well working through this. I'll add some not yet stated.

For a 6" wide A frame sure looks like what you have, you need a 1" hi rise tow ball with the Reese HP trunnion bar head. It lowers the head down enough to help get out of the binding issues. You have already made it to this point. I added a 1/4" thick heavy flat washer to get a little more. Both will work.


The hi rise tow ball "must" be stamped on top for the full GVWR of your camper or larger. Check that as some hi rise tow balls have very low ratings while others can be 25,000# goose neck tow balls.

Here are some limitations. You are doing well using the floor jack however there are other limiters in this. Shank length and TT front end design.

See here. This is a measured 74 deg left turn. 90 degrees was mentioned and that is not going to happen on a TT with a 50 degree inclusive angle A frame. While you are looking see the truck bumper and the WD shank length.



Your goal is to adjust the hitch the best you can and not have it be the binding point in a hard left turn. Pending the shank length and TT design, the tail light can crash into the camper before the hitch binds. Shorter shanks crash faster but offer a level of being slightly more stable. Longer shanks allow more degrees of turning to not hit the tail light but then the LP tanks are there. See here




A 74 degree left turn going forward may be all the turning radios of your truck can do any way. Backing up on the left side, well you can crash something and it may be the LP tanks with the bumper. There is also so much a conventional WD hitch can do in regards to turns. 74 degrees is good. You start going a lot past that and you going to break something in the hitch. It happens on my prior Suburban with rear wheel steering at about 76 degrees. See here. Soon the right WD will fly out.


If you really want 90 degres, See the Pullrite 90 degree hitch. That hitch will give 90 degress.

So that is optimizing a left turn. The right turn with your ball coupler will be limited to 65 degree right. See here. The friction sway bar arm is going to hit at 65 degrees. There is not a lot you can do about that. And "most" times you turn sharper left than right so it often is not a problem.


I see you have shimmed out the cam arms with attempts of making the WD bar mate better with the cam. I have done this. You can see it here on my older camper


However in my case I had square corner channel iron A frame and you have to shim out the frame plates so the bend radius of cam frame plate does not bind on the square corner of the frame. Even some tight radius tube frames may need a washer. So as long as you have clearance your good. adding 1 extra washer to help even out the cam is about all you need. Just make sure the frame plate is dead flush up agasint the bottom of the A frame rail. Use a C clamp is best


Here is the sq corner issue you need to shim out for.




What you need to do is mark the left and right WD bars and always use them on the same side. Over time they will wear to be a perfect match between the cam and WD bar. See here after 25K miles.




and the WD bars


I am still using those same cams, just heavier bars. Now at 50K miles and the wear is not that much more.

Now to the emergency breakaway switch, this should be set with the proper saftey chain length. This topic can get as much attention as gas verses diesel... See here for how I came to do this and why.
WD Hitch Safety Chains Hook Up (Pic's)

Searching the forum you will finds "lots" of debate posts on this.

Your 2 style hitch heads. You have the older 3 piece welded head and the new 1 piece all cast head that replaced it. The all cast new head has a higher boss for the tow ball to give more ball nut clearance and a high ball platform to help with binding. The Hi rise tow ball does this on the older 3 piece style. Enough years ago the all cast head had some issues. Some of it stemmed from shank fit up. The all cast head wrapped around a small shank can set up a problem of over flexing the C shaped part of the head and some heads cracked. There use to be a pamphlet that talked about a shim to be used if the play was too excessive. Like this


If you have a very loose fit between the shank and head on the all cast head, call Reese and they will send you a free shim is needed. Do not just tighten up the head trying to spring it closed. I have not seen or heard of any recent heads cracking like the once back in the early 2,000's which where before the 3 piece welded head. It seems Reese worked through what ever the issues were.

Oh and yes, like Barney says, set up the WD with the DC on. No need to set it up on the chains then start all over when you add the DC. I have set up many DC's and WD from the get go. It's not a problem. Don't know where you heard or read that as it seems out of context.

Hope this helps and good luck.

John

Ok, here's where it ended up. I still need to do the drive straight part to let things settle:




I shimmed the frame mount based on trying to get the bar parallel to the lip on the cam. It seems as if I shimmed the truck side while others shimmed the trailer side. How do you check to see if shims should be added/removed:




It looks like the bar is not quite flat on the cam, but I don't know if there's anything I can tweak to deal with that:




I had to relocate the brake safety switch. How can I determine if the cable is too long?

Of course you can set up the WD with the Dual Cam system installed. Once you have the WD where you want it, just adjust the Dual Cam arms so the cams ride in the exact center of the bars when they are drawn up.

The problem some people have is that they are not careful when installing the cam arm brackets on the A frame and then when they try to adjust the cams to fit exactly into the V of the bars they run out of adjustment on the arms. I would do as you have done. Install using clamps to hold the brackets in place and simulate as best possible the position of the WD bars so you can know exactly where to put the brackets before you bolt them in place. Make sure the cam arms are adjusted about 1/2 way on the arms before installing so you have adjustment room both ways.

Now you will be able to get the WD how you want it and still be able to adjust the length of the cam arms to center the V on the cams. :)

By the way, I think the 1" rise ball would be plenty. Going too high can bring other problems and may place too much stress on the hitch head via leverage. I also agree with your choice of using the welded head. Compare the lower trunnion mount sockets between the two and you will see that the welded head has much beefier sockets. There have been problems of trunnions breaking out of the lower mounts on some of the cast heads. I don't know if that one you have is one of the problem ones or not. You could probably do a search on it. JBarca has several posts on it, including model numbers to look for.
See here.
Barney

I put a 1" shank ball on the other head and gave that a shot. It does seem to provide more room if not at an angle, and the ball has a shorter shank, allowing more range of motion vs the other ball. Now the only obvious binding when flat is the extension for the sway control.




Other side:



You can see the 90 degree chalk line on the ground under the head.


I didn't get any shank spacers with that cast head (with the higher ball mount) and my understanding is the 3 piece welded ones are more desirable anyway.


So it seems like my best bet is to go for the 1" extended ball with 1 1/4" shank with the 3 piece head. The ball shank will likely need to be cut down so there are just a couple of threads past the nut when torqued down.

I have only found "bare steel" extended balls, so I assume that it will need to be painted to protect it from becoming a rusty mess.


Once I have all that stuff the weight distribution will need to be set up from scratch. I've read that you should set up the weight distribution without the dual cam and then install the dual cam kit. Then you have to do it all over again. Doesn't it make sense at this point to set up the WD with the dual cam setup and not even try without?

old guy wrote:
from the looks of it you have the tilt going towards the truck, the tilt should be towards the trailer. with the tilt towards the trailer it puts more weight towards the front wheels.

Thanks, I think maybe part of the problem is they way I'm using the jack. If I try to simulate a turn and then jack it up it twists the head. The only time the head isn't twisted is when it's straight. The photo below shows the head angle. See how the shank is tilted back - so the head is tilted towards the trailer.

sh410 wrote:
The one pix at "almost 90 degrees" it appears as though the trunion bar was not properly engaged in the hitch head.

I can ask them, the other head visually looks like it would behave the same way. The head is also tilted down some in that photo. I couldn't really use the jack to level the head turned at that angle. I guess I could loosen the chains and try.

from the looks of it you have the tilt going towards the truck, the tilt should be towards the trailer. with the tilt towards the trailer it puts more weight towards the front wheels.

fredandkathy wrote:
It appears to me that you do not have the angle of the head set correctly. Reread the direction to get the correct angle and the clearance issue should go away.

I set up the head with 800 lb bars and 6 links on the chain with no dual cam setup.

With the 1200 lb bar and 6 links on the dual cam, I figured I'd be close, since the bar is stiffer but the rear of it will be lower.


I can re-adjust it with the new bars and cams in place. How much force is on the frame mounts? Should I be able to dial it in with the cam frame mounts clamped to the frame?