Having towed for 10 yrs with my old round bar DrawTite hitch, I have never had any of the "common" dual cam problems, ie: broken cams, cracked cast heads (trunnion of course!), or the famous bent snap up or chain brackets. Until yesterday!!Cequent recently replaced my old round bar hitch with a complete new 1200# kit (see previous post on cracked round bar head). Sat morning, I installed new head on draw bar, hooked up without bars, went to a level parking lot that I have used in the past. Unhooked, measured both ball height on trailer and unhooked ball height on Excursion. Ex was approx 1/2" higher than level trailer ball height, just as should be. Installed bars, did preliminary adj to cams, readjust ball mount angle, and got the bars reasonably close to "perfection", as if there really is a perfect setting with a dual cam!!Headed home around a longer route to get a feel for the new hitch. First turn out of parking lot, sounded like someone took a shot next to me!! I figured that was to be expected on new bars on worn cams. Needed to make aboot 6 turns, mostly left, to get home. Each turn, in either direction was the same, a grinding and then a huge bang that could be felt through the Ex like you hit a pothole at 60mph. OK, some embellishment (!!), but I know the dual cams can be noisy, but the old set up never was like this.This new hitch is very pretty, shiny, looks like they are using an epoxy paint. I believe the new paint was being ground off and building up between the cam and the bar ramp. Home, I unhooked, and found the left snap up (old style) loose. It was bent slightly at the bottom and the bolt dented the inside of the frame about 1/16". The right side was ok, and tight. On the trip home, left turns were 4 to 2, and it seemed that the left turn was the noisiest.Now, the new hitch came with the new heavy duty snap ups, and this may not have happened if I had put them on, but I was going to wait since I may have to move the bottles slightly since the new ones are wider and the old ones tucked right up side the bottle pan. Also, in checking them today, I found that the new ones don't mount squarely to the frame, they have a slight rocking motion when placed (not permanently) on the frame. Anybody noticed this before??I am going to bolt the new ones on, but I thought about a different method other than just drilling one hole for a self tapping bolt. What would the gang here think about drilling a hole on the inside of the frame just larger than the pinch bolt and then running it all the way into the frame and tightening on the inside of the outer frame. Being just under the top of the frame, it would seem to me to have a stronger attachment and resistance to twisting forces.There was a string on the Jayco forum discussing the attachment of the snap ups on Jaycos. In fact, in the latest installation pdf, Cequent states if you have a Jayco with a bottom mounted coupler you should bolt on with one bolt. They also stated to a site member that the snap ups only needed the one bolt near the top center since it is the strongest place to put it!Love to hear any comments on my idea from the hitch and dual cam experts.GerryPS: Jury is still out on the new style round bar system!! Old one was fast hook up, didn't have to drop chains, but now have to to swing the bars in towards the trailer. Oh well, that's progress!!

Hi Gary,Any chance of a side pic of your new hitch setup?Do you have the old style DC with the U bolts holding them to the frame or the newer HP DC that bolts to the frame?To the snap up's, please if possible take a pic of the 1/16" dent from the snap up set screw that just happend. This has shown up in another thread about tublar frame crush. I would "not" drill a hole through the frame to allow the set screw to pinch the far side inside. This will not prevent the snap up from starting to slide down which can be a problem on some 1000# and up hitches. The top of the snap up can still start to spring open and you get the bent bracket. And yes I have seen both the older and new snap ups that are not bent 90 degrees to sit flat on the frame. I would bolt the snap up brackets to the frame and favor the top of the hole with the bolt so the bracket canot slide down. I myself would not use self tapping screws. If your frame already dented 1/16" from just the set screw pressure, that tube frame seems to point to being easy to get tube crush so to speak. Through bolts with a 1/4" backer plate the entire height of the frame to help spread the load out can be a better option. Once I can see your setup I can make some more comments about what may be going on. See this thread on member mrekim, it will help where I am coming from on tubular frame crush. DC setupDo you know your loaded tougue weight?Hope this helpsJohn

TUCQUALA wrote:I found that the new ones don't mount squarely to the frame, they have a slight rocking motion when placed (not permanently) on the frame. Anybody noticed this before??Mine don't mount squarely either.TUCQUALA wrote:I am going to bolt the new ones on, but I thought about a different method other than just drilling one hole for a self tapping bolt. What would the gang here think about drilling a hole on the inside of the frame just larger than the pinch bolt and then running it all the way into the frame and tightening on the inside of the outer frame. Being just under the top of the frame, it would seem to me to have a stronger attachment and resistance to twisting forces.I would be concerned about the bolt wanting to push up from under the frame causing the top of the frame to buckle or rip.I think some kind of re-enforcement plate might be better. Maybe on both sides. Inside handles the force of the pinch bolt and outside handles the forces applies to the center of the A frame face from the snap up and the DC when they try to twist.Also, it's not clear that the self tapping screws are the best approach for a thin tube frame. Rivnuts or a through bolting with proper support to prevent the bolt from crushing the tube may be better.I'm no expert, but hopefully this helps and gives something to think about until the experts chime in.[edit] ok JBarca is one of those experts, we must have been typing at the same time...Also, since you seem to have experience some issues already, try to implement whatever beefing up strategy you have before even an around the block tow. [/edit]

JBarca wrote: Through bolts with a 1/4" backer plate the entire height of the frame to help spread the load out can be a better option. Can this be done in the top hole location? I did a quick look last week and it seemed like it might interfere with the pinch bolt on the other side.

TUCQUALA wrote: Each turn, in either direction was the same, a grinding and then a huge bang that could be felt through the Ex like you hit a pothole at 60mph. I experienced grinding and pops, but nothing like what you describe above. Especially when going around "normal" turns.

John, my DC is the late model HP, have had it on since '04, with 750# & 1000# round bars with no problems with either. I'll try to get some pics if the weather holds up tomorrow.I find it hard to believe that the new 1200# bars would require frame reinforcement if not for the indentation. My opinion is the paint jamming the bar and putting excessive down force on the cam or jamming for a slight moment and then releasing explosively, pulling at the snap up sharply and bending it at the bottom and pulling the bolt hard against the inside frame, thus the dent. This new paint is very thick, and comes off in pretty thick (for a paint film) pieces. One time, just for yucks (!!), I used some light grease on the 1K bars to see if there was any difference in feel. Halfway through a 200+ mile trip, dirt and metal dust from the bars and cams built up on the bars and the noise level and snapping in turns increased a great deal. Cleaning off both stopped the roughness and the noise level was almost zero. Thus my case for the paint on old cams being a major culprit in this. I never thought that I should remove or reduce the amount of paint on the bars where they ride on the cams before using. I would ass-ume that a new smooth cam and new bar would work together smoothly and wear in together.I also understand your reasoning for not using the bolt to pinch against the outside frame, although in a perfect situation (like I'm sure Cequent thinks with the tapping screw!!) there would never be a problem with the idea!! I'll have to decide before Spring what method to mount the snap ups, the damage is minor, no other bending or denting on the left side, and the right has only a mark from the bolt being tightened. I have been following mrekim's thread, and any thread with DC problems. As I wrote, I have never had any problems with the snap ups, even with the 1000# bars for the last 3+ yrs. His much more severe damage with the associated necessary repairs made me think about other fixes after discovering the problem.Not meaning to be argumentive, just rambling and thinking out loud!!

Dual Cam Snap Up Comments | Good Sam Community

19 Replies

Campin_LI
Explorer
Oct 30, 2013
TUCQUALA wrote:
See my post: http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/27317907.cfm and was replaced by Cequent with this new one.

I see you replaced 1K bars with 1.2K bars. That may be the cause of the bent bracket. The 1K bars with more flex likely dampened the downward force on the bracket while going over bumps on the road. The 1.2K bars are a lot stiffer, so when you hit that bump, the chain would yank the bracket down. If this is what happened, bolting like Turk did above would solve that problem. Alternatively, airbags on the Ex would stop a lot of the bouncing. I too felt my Ex was very stable before the bags. You don't realize how much bouncing takes place back there until it is gone. I tried a couple different air pressures and found that 10 lbs unloaded in the bags gave me about 20 lbs when loaded with 1200 lb tongue weight. This pressure does not raise the back of the truck up at all compared to no air in the bags, so the 20 lbs in the bags under load only stabilizes the truck. The WDH is not unloaded at all by the bags. When I pumped the bags up more to level the truck, the WDH became unloaded but honestly, handling felt about the same with less weight transferred to the front wheels.

I hope you get it all figured out.

Side note - I really do like the Equal-i-zer with this truck and Jayco trailer. I did through bolt the L-Bracket to the trailer frame because 1 bracket moved. Not enough friction to hold it in place because the frame is not flat. No backer plate for this because the bracket itself is on both sides of the frame.

I saw a guy at a campground with an Ex and a 32BHDS with Reese WDH and sway mounted wrong and with brackets backwards and he said it towed great just the way it was, so who knows!!!!
Community Alumni
Oct 30, 2013
In respect to thru-bolting snap-up brackets to a tube style TT A-frame...., I can state that my snap-ups have been thru-bolted (w/backer plate) for almost 7 years on my '05' Jayco 6" tall tube A-frame without incident. My loaded tongue weight is 1,300lbs, and I have a 1,500lb rated WDH (trunnion style) with the Reese HP Dual Cam (1st "HP" version).

Last year I noticed that one of the four original Reese supplied forming screws at the Dual Cam Frame Plate wasn't holding the recommended torque after 7 years, so I also thru-bolted (w/backer plate) the two Frame Plates:

Note: 1/2-13 jam-nut was re-installed after pic was taken.

Bob
TUCQUALA
Explorer
Oct 29, 2013
Campin LI, appreciate your comments, very valid points. My only rebuttal is that I have towed for 7+ yrs with the older round bar set up, the last 3 yrs with 1K bars and since March with the Ex. There were no abnormal problems or excessive noises. That hitch did have cracks in the welds at the tubes. See my post: http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/27317907.cfm and was replaced by Cequent with this new one.

Your description and comments on the Ex may be the cause of the cracks to the old head, but I have not had any bent components on that setup, straight line or in turns, and only have had the one old style bracket bend after installing the new head and bars. As I mentioned in another post, I have not done anything yet to reinforce or modify the setup, still contemplating!!

As to the handling on the road, between my Suburban and the Ex, the main difference in my opinion, is the wandering that it seems all Excursions are equipped with from the factory!! Both feel solid with the trailer, and exhibit very little porpoising. But it is possible that the many rough roads and bridges we drove on in Aug (4800+ miles) may have been the cause of the cracking.

Thanks again for your comments, appreciate your insight and experience.
Campin_LI
Explorer
Oct 29, 2013
Slightly off topic, many above are recommending heavy duty snap brackets and bolting of brackets. I do not think that will work for you. Your problem occurs during turns (like mine). The forces on the hitch components are causing the bending to occur, not the dead weight, although the heavier tongue weight is not helping things. My opinion is that heavy duty snap brackets and /or bolting of brackets is good if you are bending the brackets when going down the road straight (usually caused by porpoising or bouncing of the combo). My opinion is that when you are at or near the spring capacity of the truck (either because of improper hitch adjustment or overloaded springs by weight if properly adjusted and at max capacity)the truck will porpoise or bounce and this causes even downward force for both bars. The hitch manufacturer recommends heavy duty brackets or bolting to solve that problem, again because the problem occurs evenly on both sides at the same time. My opinion, the right way to solve that problem would be to get airbags to stiffen the suspension. The last thing a hitch manufacturer wants to do is say that airbags (their perceived competition) sometimes have a place in the setup.
Campin_LI
Explorer
Oct 29, 2013
I just read your post. I have a Ford Excursion and a Jayco 32BHDS. I had the Reese round bar setup and mine looked exactly as yours does. I was bending snap brackets, cam arms, and even ripping the bolts for the cam arms out of the frame. What was happening to mine is on a left hand turn, the bar wound not unlock from the detent on the inside bar. Instead, the shank would rotate a little in the receiver and the bar would raise up while locked into the detent resulting in slack in the chain (Think about how the detent on the inside bar moves back on a turn. If it does not unlock and the shank can twist a little, the cam arm raises up because as it raises up it in essence gets longer). Then it would eventually unlock (maybe by a bump or enough bending on a hitch component occurred for it to snap loose)and snap down giving you the real loud bang you hear (I don't think the bang causes the snap bracket to bend but the bending of the bracket may cause the bar to unlock from the detent). I admire your tenacity in trying to re-adjust and adding backer plates, etc. but after a couple of tries, I admitted defeat and switched to Equal-i-zer hitch and never had a problem again. I think you would also be fine if you switched to a trunion style Reese. My opinion is that the round bar setup along with a bottom mount hitch (like Jayco's have) is a bad match. I think there is too much of a twisting moment at the hitch pin because the downward force at the cam is too low compared to the trailer frame. With the Excursion, there are no options on the receiver other than shims to keep the shank from twisting, but I did not try this.

Good luck!
TUCQUALA
Explorer
Oct 28, 2013
Just for info, the pic of the hitch setup is with an good old style head and the 1000# bars before the bars and cracked head were sent back to Cequent. It is not showing the new setup, it is not finalized. I can say that with the new head and bars, and less tilt to the rear, the chains hung almost vertically! To get the cams into the bar shape correctly, the cams had to be brought out as far as they could be, thus a more vertical chain hang.

I have turned the arm brackets around, there will be more adjustment when I get back to the installation. The old 1K bars were about half an inch longer in the V area of the bar than the 750#. The new 1200# bars are almost the same length, but have a more pronounced shape to the bends. That was also the case with the old 1K bars. They sure vary in their production designs!!
ktmrfs
Explorer III
Oct 28, 2013
Looks like plenty of bar to cam arm clearance.

However, with the brackets slide backwards from straight up and down on the chains, you are adding a different, and probably unexpected load to the snap up bracket. Instead of the chain pulling straight down, it is going to exert a force at an angle to the bracket trying to twist and rotate the bracket. Don't know if that could cause any of the bending or not.

JBarca probably knows more than anyone else what the effect, if any, of a not vertically aligned snap up bracket might be.

Normally when a piece of metal is bent, they design in what is often referred to as "overbend". That is they bend past the intended angle knowing that it will spring back some when the force is removed. Can pretty much predict how much knowing what material they started with. so, either (a) they didn't design in enough overbend initially or (b) they changed materials or bending dies or (c) something else and the bend angle is less than 90 degrees in this case.
TUCQUALA
Explorer
Oct 28, 2013
ktmrfs, I have the straight cam chain holders, and they are positioned correctly.

mrekim, your drawing (and it's very artistic!), is correct as to how the new s-ups fit on the frame. I wonder why they can't make them square to the frame like the old ones are. Maybe it's an intended engineering design!! That would be a hoot!!

Attached are pics of the frame, inside and out (outside is straight), and the old snap ups, and a pic of the last setup with 1000# bars. On the s-ups pics you can see the slight bend at the bottom of the s-up that was on the left side.

On the inside frame pic, you can see old evidence of the snap up sliding to the rear, that did not happen in this incident.
ktmrfs
Explorer III
Oct 28, 2013
mrekim:

good point if the bracket doesn't fit square.

Another reason for the bolt(s) at the bottom is. Thinking of the forces, if the top starts to bend and slide, the bottom will also try to slide down. However, if i is bolted it can't slide and will help it resist further bending forces. It can try to pull away, but it can't also drop down and then pull further.
mrekim
Explorer
Oct 28, 2013
ktmrfs wrote:
Also, not sure that the HD ones would have done any frame damage. In fact might have prevented it. Looking at the brackets, what happens is that w/o the extra support gussett the HD bracket have, if you get much doutward force from the chain, it will cause the std bracket to bend on the outside surface. that then trys to pull the inside towards the frame as it moves in and up, causing the bolt to dig into the frame.

On the HD brackets, the gussett supports the weak point that tries to bend outward from downward/outward cam forces. And also support the "U" section at the top from deflecting.

That's possible, I admit that I'm somewhat negatively biased on any "stock" DC system on a tube frame. Hopefully this won't come across as argumentative, that's not the intent.

On thing I want to point out is that, without a bolt holding it in, the HD bracket will only touch a tube frame in 4 places under load.

1) The pinch bolt
2) The outside top corner of the frame corner
3/4) The bottom of the bracket on the face of the frame.

If there's enough force present to bend the old style bracket and start to dig the pinch bolt into the frame then it seems like the new style would transfer all that force to the frame rather than absorb it by bending. Given where the bracket contacts the frame (assuming mine is not unique), these places aren't ideal for supporting a large load.

Now if the HD bracket is securely bolted to the frame, then the face of the bracket stays parallel to the frame and there's no point load at the bottom of the bracket in the weakest part of the frame. This also helps to prevent the pinch bolt from digging in.

This is all speculation on my part, but hopefully drilling down into this stuff is something that will help us all.

I made a little drawing. Forgive my artwork. Everything in the drawing is greatly exaggerated. When you tighten up the snap up, it sits on the frame like the left drawing. There's gap on the bottom of the snap-up between the snap-up and the frame maybe between 1/8 and 1/4". Once you apply a load there's a gap at the TOP of the snap-up on the face of the frame. This is why I'm guessing that the HD one could cause problems if it's not bolted flat to the face of the frame.