F350 payload dispute

ShinerBock wrote:
I see GVWR's and payload ratings as useless and outdated in regards to most light duty trucks. It is generally just used to know how much to tax you and for EPA emissions/USDOT standards. This forces auto manufacturers to arbitrarily limit these trucks to meet standards rather than their actual safe carrying ability of their axles.

It is only people(like "internet experts" in forums) outside of the medium and heavy duty industry that mainly worry the manufacturers GVWR and payload when it comes to weight enforcement. Most people in the medium and heavy duty industry generally go by axle ratings and the weight on each individual axle since this is what is enforced in most areas.

GVWR's and payload ratings are good to go by if you are a novice to towing or hauling which is why I recommend those new to RVing to follow them for the first year or so of owning a new rig. Most experienced RVer's and tower's with a few years behind their belt in a vehicle knows what their rig can handle. The more experienced ones can generally look at ALL the specs of a truck and can tell how much a truck can actually handle regardless of what GVWR or payload number is. Of course, there are always those that like to push things way past the safe limit of all of the trucks ratings(even GAWR's) regardless of towing experience.

HD trucks are loaded to keep within the permitted axle weight allowance for the roads they travel on. People use the same trucks off road weighted much heavier. For example, we put 67000 lbs of payload on our Kenworth when off road. This puts it at 100,000 lbs gross weight. The sum of the axle ratings are 89000 lbs. Legal for road travel is only 66800 which only allows for a payload of 33,800 or about 1/2 what we use it for. I've never looked at the gvwr on the truck.

I see GVWR's and payload ratings as useless and outdated in regards to most light duty trucks. It is generally just used to know how much to tax you and for EPA emissions/USDOT standards. This forces auto manufacturers to arbitrarily limit these trucks to meet standards rather than the actual safe carrying ability of the axles.

It is only people outside of the medium and heavy duty industry(like "internet experts" in forums) that mainly worry the manufacturers GVWR and payload when it comes to weight enforcement. Most people in the medium and heavy duty industry generally go by GCW, axle limits, and the weight on each individual axle since this is what is enforced in most areas.

GVWR's and payload ratings are good to go by if you are a novice to towing or hauling which is why I recommend those new to RVing to follow them for the first year or so of owning a new rig. Most experienced RVer's and tower's with a few years behind their belt in a vehicle knows what their rig can handle. The more experienced ones can generally look at ALL the specs of a truck and can tell how much a truck can actually handle regardless of what GVWR or payload number is. Of course, there are always those that like to push things way past the safe limit of all of the trucks ratings(even GAWR's) regardless of towing experience.

JIMNLIN wrote:
Some states like mine don't have any weight for registration on a private use truck. We simply carry up to whatever axle/tire load limits is for that size vehicle.

Since private use trucks are not subject to commercial DOT law, and will never be weighed, in effect, there is no limit.

The only way you can be pulled over for being overloaded in a private use truck is if you are so grossly overloaded that you cannot keep control of the vehicle.

4x4ord wrote:
I said earlier that I would feel comfortable hauling a 4000 lb pin. Although this is true, I wouldn't be buying a SRW truck to pull an rv with a 4000 lb pin weight. My trailer only has a pin weight of 2400 lbs. I would be sticking with a SRW up to a 3000 lb pin and at over 3500 lbs I would be shopping for a dually.

I would strongly encourage you to weigh your rig loaded up for a trip.........

Hey Jim,

Good to hear from and add to subsequent comments of the weakest link, etc kind of thought...

If the design was good, to the design specification...certification testing & acceptance/approval...will have the 'weakest link' taken into account. We outside of the design team will never know what that weakest link is...nor will they ever tell anyone. Pure guessing game

Again, decide if one believes in their OEM's specifications (a contract to the buyer/owner/driver) via their listed 'ratings', 'limits', etc...or not

Pretty simple. If not, then do whatever...now knowing you have taken the OEM(s...yes plural) off the liability hook. Tough part is them proving you went past their limits and there-in-lays the forever advice to ignore ratings/limits/specifications/etc because they have been for years with no issues (that they know of)

Also am seeing/reading members claiming to be engineers...wonder about that. For these seemingly do NOT understand of which Jim and others reference to.

Think and of course IMHO, that they are what we coined at SunLabs..."Green light...Red light designers"

Meaning...no connection or awareness of this and only designs to the box (spec) they are given. Which many times is only a portion of the whole system.

Then run the super computer simulations where a 'green light' comes on saying okay and good to go...or a 'red light' comes on and they then fix the vectors of the list it spits out...once that is done...another round with the simulation...again and again till the 'acceptable number of vectors' are reached.

Yet another line with no understanding of why that line was drawn from. Some do in a kinda sorta way, but their manager pushes to finish and move onto the next project...

Bottom line...The product design team (really the Program Manager and/or the Project Manager) has their specifications and if the whole thing passes certification testing...done... The service reps on my teams were always calling out the designers on all kinds of stuff...service & legal were my sic-dogs....

Here is an example using the TV I know best...mine...

Ordered it with the F60 option. Snow Plow prep package and cost $68 bucks. Begets the 1 ton front torsion bars...but the door label did not change and still lists the 4,250 lb FGAWR. A true 1 ton's FGAWR is 5,xxx lbs (IIRC 5,400)

The rear axle has a GAWR of 6,000 lbs. But is has the 3.5" wide shoes found on the 1 ton dually of that year/era (GMT400) and that 1 ton dually likewise has a RGAWR of 6,000 lbs

The OEM supplier to GM is AAM and they list my axle assembly at 10,000 GAWR

Why tongue-n-cheek call mine a K3500 Suburban...plus have upgraded my rear brake cylinders to what the 1 ton dually has. Ditto the MC. Plus super tuned/modified it to perform. Have out braked a BMW 5 series to where he rear ended me...

But...bottom line is the my OEMs specifications for my TV is still 8.6K GVWR, 16,000 GCWR, 4,250 FGAWR and 6,000 RGAWR. My actual weight the last time weighed was 7,200 lbs with me in it (180), toolbox (~250), oversized wheels/tires, big block, full fluids and misc stuff (around 50 lbs).

That leaves 8,600 - 7,200 = 1,400 lbs of cargo/tongue/etc left in the ratings. Even though the 6,000 RGAWR has much more head room...

There is a reason my TVs have gotten bigger over time...that is because am not going to sweat it each time am going to tow...

My choice in this risk management decision...AKA gambling and my advice is to the OEM's spec so that the folks asking can makeup their own minds...based on their label info for 'their TV' and actual weights...

For those looking for the "sure you can" stuff...you've gotten many, many and even if you print out every last one...makes no difference to that ticket or accident...the responsibility is the drivers along...

PS...Jim...guessing you came across different folks than me...not affectionately, but as a derogatory to de-legitimatize

BenK wrote:
My advice i empirical both in careers & hands on, plus college and common sense are my qualifications...toss in older than most on this/these forums (70 next year). For here, my first career in Industrial Controls, Robotics, Process Controls, Factory Automation and military stuff. No automotive, but people movers

Gotta add first...decide if you believe in all of the OEM's 'ratings', 'specifications', etc. If not, then academic this thread. If yes, then research and bone up on 'your' OEM's specifications, ratings, limits, etc...plus your states rules of the road and the states you plan on driving to and through

Another point is that all things designed, engineered, etc are not for the good days out there...but for the day Mr Murphy crosses your path (and it is NOT always the 'other guy' that he touches).

Either you have the right sized stuff and adjusted correctly spot on or NOT. No time to go back to the store for bigger/better/etc, nor re-adjust

That is to 'manhandle' the situation enough to regain control or maintain control of the situation. Otherwise just along for the ride

There are: 'can do it', 'should do it'....to 'rated for it' via the OEM's specifications, which is basically their CYA for their liability of their product...AKA...their contract to you, the owner/driver. The only person responsible for the setup is the driver...even if they did NOT choose the components that makes up that setup. Nor any of us advisors on these freebie forums. We have no skin in 'your' game...now is there any liability to us.

A think can be designed to be safe in all situations, but then it would not be affordable to civilians. Heck even military stuff has their specification limits too, but way more than a similar civilian version.

Confusion on most and on this have to make this point clear, as many do NOT understand corporate parts bin design & choice of components & systems.

As you go up in class TV's, the volumes diminish greatly. So to have specific, say rear axle assemblies, for everything above the lowest class, half ton, would be cost prohibitive or too costly.

Why many/most "3/4 ton" and "1 ton" TV's has same/similar rear axle assemblies from their suppliers (another OEM) and the TV OEM adds 'stuff'...like brakes (backing plates, calipers, etc)...but the base axle assembly is the same between them. That is where I think most of the confusion and conspiracy theories arise from...and it is based on a bit of truth because of the "corporate parts bin" methodology

This goes with tranny's, frame's, suspension part's/system's, etc

Then the fact that most TV OEM's use the exact same basis sheetmetal cab/body/bed/etc from the lowest class up to most of the higher classes. So they 'look' the same with no difference to many...too many

Most seasoned owners of TV's who actually use their TV's as 'trucks' for either work or towing/hauling heavy...knows more than the average salesperson. Why for trucks, I'll mainly go to a broker for semi's and/or commercial trucks. They actually know much more to IMHO, experts

The new yellow label is a step better, but am still of the opinion to actually go out and weigh your setup. Both empty and fully loaded. Otherwise you really don't know where you are in reference to 'your' setup's ratings

IMHO, go with this generic formula using actual weights: GCWR >/= TV + Trailer + stuff (hitch, people, pets, cargo, after market, etc, etc, etc)


Finally...an oddity to me...folks want to push their limits, advise others to do so because they have been doing that for years with no problems...but then when it comes to a used vehicle...miles matter and always looking for abuse or lack of maintenance... Well if the previous owner pushed the limits and beyond, even low mileage can be risky...to if they didn't and stayed below the limits...a higher mileage TV would be fine... Baffling that to me...


Go out and actually weigh your setup, fully loaded and empty, axle by axle...

bighog01 wrote:
New F350 SRW that I'm considering says 3326 lbs on the payload sticker with a 11500 GVWR. I asked for this info before the dealer had it brought in from another dealer. Salesperson and fleet manager say that its actually 4164 lbs because the factory invoice says the trucks shipping weight is 7336 lbs. Now I'm sure that's weighed with minimal diesel I. The tank. Isn't the door sticker the law? I always thought so. I'm not obligated to buy this truck and I have no deposit on it. Right now I'm not feeling comfortable hitching my Fuzion to it.

Consider two similar trucks. Truck 1 is a 2014 Duramax 2500 that was used it's entire life to pull a 12000 lb RV with a 2400 lb pin weight which put the truck 800 lbs over its GVWR. Truck 2 is a 2014 GMC Duramax 3500 dually which was used its entire life to pull a 22000 lb rv with a pin weight of 3500 lbs. It was never loaded to its GVWR. Obviously truck 1 was abused by your view of things but I wiuld be more interested in buying truck 1 than truck 2 if they both appeared to be well looked after.

One also has to look at what influences those specs. Actual carrying ability or decades old government regulations.

BenK, I agree with your post; being a now retired Engineer, I’m OCD about specs, thus the reason I was always affectionately called, “the weight Police”. Liked your information buddy,

Jim

Grit dog wrote:
I may have asked you this before, but we’re you the “dot” specialist cop in Hainesville, IL back in the day?

Nope. Springfield area mostly.
When I was in investigations I worked some cases on the north end of the state but wasn't chasing trucks.

The law enforces the weight that is on the registration, not the weight that is on the door. Not sure why that is so hard for some to understand.

Some states like mine don't have any weight for registration on a private use truck. We simply carry up to whatever axle/tire load limits is for that size vehicle.

I see some folks (mostly in the northeast) have said they have to register their trucks at a combined weight when towing a trailer. Nothing about a gross weight.