3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[JConatser]

blkfe wrote:
...If the resistance increases as the temp rises...

With most thermistors, the resistance decreases as the temperature rises.

[blkfe]

After I think about it I would have to make a new face plate for the meter as well. Getting too complicated.
Meat thermometer....Hmmmm...Problem would be Fridays.......

[blkfe]

so..What is the desired head temp range on a champion genset?
If it is in the 300-400 degree range, is the relationship between the resistance and temp of a thermistor linier? If the resistance increases as the temp rises and it is a linier relationship, why could I not put a ajustable resistor in series and recalabrate the system????
Brad

[professor95]

presp wrote:
Our air cooled gens run in the temp range of 300-400f under any appreciable load.
That gauge maxes out @220f.
Perhaps they have others for a higher temp range?

Pres

Come on pres, you gotta' use a little Southern Innovation! (Don't know if Burbank has any Southeners though - maybe that's the problem?)

Anyway, the meter most likely has a thermister embedded in a metal ring that attaches to a bolt and changes resitance depending on the temp. This sends a varing voltage to a calibrated meter. Since cylinder head temps are not the main issue, just the temp of components inside the box - especially the genhead - it seems like it would be a good device to bolt to the genhead to watch temps there. You choose your location according to what you want to monitor.

I bought a remote digital readout meat thermometer with a 3 foot lead and probe at BigLots ($3.99) for both my RV water heater and genset. I know my water is fully heated when the themometer hits PORK, but that ain't no pig in the tank.

I also know my genny is getting a little too warm when the thermometer hits BEEF WELL DONE. Disappontment is apparent when I don't find a juicy ribeye on the end of the probe, but I get over it.

Repurposing, making it fit, easy modification, finding a new use, etc. for an existing (cheap) item make RVing fun and interesting (Do you read 10 minute Tech in TL mag?) Please, my friend, don't overlook the opportunitys of owning an elephant rather than a horse just because the elephant wasn't made to wear a saddle.:h

[blkfe]

Hmmm...
Maybe thats why it is advertised as a water cooled outboard sensor.
Maybe someone with a champion could check the head temp. under load and post it.
Brad

[presp]

professor95 wrote:

blkfe wrote:
For those of you building enclosures, would this help?

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007082214382198&item=28-1403&catname=

While it is designed for water cooled outboards, the apparent use of a head bolt to obtain a temp reading indicates that there may be other uses for the meter. Having a couple of OB motors, installing would be a snap vs. tapping into the water jacket. My knee jerk is that it would work equally well on an air cooled engine. Price is OK, if shipping is not too high. I'll be interested to see what you find if you do decide to pick one up. Thanks for the info!

Our air cooled gens run in the temp range of 300-400f under any appreciable load.
That gauge maxes out @220f.
Perhaps they have others for a higher temp range?

Pres

[professor95]

bbrown96347 wrote:
Now you (Prof et al) are referring to a couple of 110v ONLY models 40080 & 40010 and maybe the HD model 40012. I went to the Champion website (www.cpeauto.com) and they don't list these new models. Where can I find them and/or information/specs about them?

The 40008 units are only being distributed through UltraFab dealers. Prices can vary considerably from dealer to dealer depending on the level of discount each is willing to allow. Many RV dealers are in the UltraFab distribution network. The UltraFab web site will give you a listing. It is possible that a RV dealer may be in the UltraFab network and not realize they can order the 40008. If you are looking for one and your RV dealer says no, ask if they can order from UltraFab and then work back to the 40008 from there.

Unlike other brands, CPE does not have direct sales. They only work through authorized dealers. Some of these dealers (like Home Depot & Ultra Fab) order the gensets with specific features that may not be available on other models. There are dozens and dozens of different genset models made by CPE - we have only touched on a small few on this forum. CPE does not sell their products under a differnt brand name like other Chinese genset builders, but they may have a different model name or even color for certain distributors.

Frome time-to-time you may see a yellow genset that looks exactly like a Champion, but does not have the Champion name anywhere on it other than maybe CPE stamped on the valve cover. Champion takes repairable returns, refurbishes, tests and resells them to dealers. They take their name off of the genset so the units can't be sold as new. The warranty is usually 90 days. Manuals provided with these units should have "Factory Refurbished" on the front. These can be excellent buys if you can find them.

If purchasing a Champion RV ready model, you really do not need a 120V only unit. The front panel selector switch allows either/or and kills the outlet that is not selected. Thus, it is really hard to mess up and select the wrong voltage. IMHO, the main benefit of the 40008 is electric start - nice for an old bloke like me with previous rotator cuff repair on the rope pullin' arm.

[bbrown93647]

professor95 wrote:

Old & Slow wrote:
My thought, maybe we can ask Mr. Cole to give us a 110v (only) genset. Maybe the rules of using this genset will aid in our use.

Mr. Wizard and I have one, the 40008 electric start.

This is Mr. Cole's word-for-word response to the grounding issue. He did not ask me to post this. Posting was my decision to enhance the issues surrounding the safe use of these portable gensets:

"(On the neutral bonding issue) ...... We agree with the professor and find the naysayers less credible than they want the public to think. My reference is to the electrical association IMSA. They may be right in the common household logic, but when it comes to the generators, they need to go back over the Generators 101, putting some well known and common logic into play."

"....... we will be issuing a chart of models soon and indicate the bonding and unbonded models. As I have mentioned, Home Depot has mandated we deliver our generators with a bonded neutral for their sales. At present they are the only vendor receving this. Even though generators over 5000w in performance for commercial work are required by OSHA to have a GFI and a bonded neutral, Home Depot is requiring all units to have GFI and bonded neutral for the 2008 model year."

"..... the copy indicating the bonded neutral was written for only the Home Depot units, since they want the neutral to be bonded on their generators. This same copy ended up in the Ultra Fab units (40008 Elec. start and 40010 non elect start . These both have floating neutrals or unbonded ) The Home Depot unit is model 40012 and DOES have a bonded neutral."

Hi Guys:
A newbie here trying to figure out what to power my 31 foot Laredo travel trailer with. The C46540 has caught my eye at $299 ($349 with a $50 rebate at Kragen, etc.)
Now you (Prof et al) are referring to a couple of 110v ONLY models 40080 & 40010 and maybe the HD model 40012. I went to the Champion website (www.cpeauto.com) and they don't list these new models. Where can I find them and/or information/specs about them?

BTW thank you so much for this site, the information is incredible and I can see that I am benefitting from many years of your combined wisdom and apparantly effective input to at least Champion for us RVr's. I just can't see spending $2K for a genset that will run my AC!!!!!

Any input is welcome...

BB

[TKMJ]

blkfe wrote:

professor95 wrote:

blkfe wrote:
For those of you building enclosures, would this help?

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007082214382198&item=28-1403&catname=

While it is designed for water cooled outboards, the apparent use of a head bolt to obtain a temp reading indicates that there may be other uses for the meter. Having a couple of OB motors, installing would be a snap vs. tapping into the water jacket. My knee jerk is that it would work equally well on an air cooled engine. Price is OK, if shipping is not too high. I'll be interested to see what you find if you do decide to pick one up.

Thanks for the info!

Thats kinda what went through my brain matter as well.
Many of you have the temperature gun things but this would allow me
to watch the temp while in an enclosure. If it is an electric gauge I could mount it anywhere. I'll check it out and post my findings.
Price seems right.
Thanks!

This sounds interesting. I wonder if the probe unit runs on standard wire or is it like a thermo-couple type system where you have a limited legnth between the gague and the sending unit.

[blkfe]

professor95 wrote:

blkfe wrote:
For those of you building enclosures, would this help?

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007082214382198&item=28-1403&catname=

While it is designed for water cooled outboards, the apparent use of a head bolt to obtain a temp reading indicates that there may be other uses for the meter. Having a couple of OB motors, installing would be a snap vs. tapping into the water jacket. My knee jerk is that it would work equally well on an air cooled engine. Price is OK, if shipping is not too high. I'll be interested to see what you find if you do decide to pick one up.

Thanks for the info!

Thats kinda what went through my brain matter as well.
Many of you have the temperature gun things but this would allow me
to watch the temp while in an enclosure. If it is an electric gauge I could mount it anywhere. I'll check it out and post my findings.
Price seems right.
Thanks!

[Bob___Arlene]

We just got back from a week at Assatique National park and the new Champion 4000/3500 C46540 did the job running the 15k ac and charging the batteries. Easy to start and oil usage wasn't a problem. One key learning was that having a separate 40 amp smart 3 stage battery charger along was a lucky stroke since the built in converter is 80 amp and has no adjustment as to charge rate. I found that if the batteries were down the generator couldn't handle it. The fix was to use the just the smart charger. If I didn't use the ac I could charge with both and make coffee at the same time.

[professor95]

blkfe wrote:
For those of you building enclosures, would this help?

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007082214382198&item=28-1403&catname=

While it is designed for water cooled outboards, the apparent use of a head bolt to obtain a temp reading indicates that there may be other uses for the meter. Having a couple of OB motors, installing would be a snap vs. tapping into the water jacket. My knee jerk is that it would work equally well on an air cooled engine. Price is OK, if shipping is not too high. I'll be interested to see what you find if you do decide to pick one up.

Thanks for the info!

[blkfe]

blkfe wrote:
For those of you building enclosures, would this help?

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007082214382198&item=28-1403&catname=

I guess I assumed it had a contact sensor which I think would work for any surface temp as long as there was a good contact for heat transfer. I live 20 miles from this store so will stop in and check it out.I will post what I find.
Brad

[deshemar]

professor95 wrote:
Just a "heads up".


We were at the "Rivia" (river for non-locals) last week. Big, bad thunderstorm came along and knocked out power. !

I was trying to get home from vacation on 64 during that storm - driving 40mph with my TT in tow - must have been 5 trees down between Palmyra exit and 295/95 interchange - was a tense drive home - Good news is i only lost power at home for 30 minutes and had the champ on the truck. Friday took the little champ over to some friends who lost power and they were very pleased to have a fan and fridge again. hope not to see storms like that anytime again soon.

[MrWizard]

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007082214382198&item=28-1403&catname=

water cooled outboards, what type of sender, external 'fasten to head' internal 'screw into port in head' ?

air cooled engines have NO ports for an internal sender that is used on water cooled engines