3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[Navychop]

OK, so if I understand you correctly, the inverters run off batteries may produce a MSW/stepped square wave that is "jerkier" than the output from (almost any) generator. It is this "stepping" that causes interference. Generator output, regardless of just how they chose to produce the AC, is not going to have the sharp steps, just some noise, which is generally not a problem.

So the "inverter" generators such as the Kipors and Honda EU series, are reputed to produce an excellent sine wave, perhaps even better than the mains power out of your home outlets. Does this mean the "inverter" used in these generators is not the same animal as used from batteries? No AC produced from DC with generators? Just what is this generator "inverter" doing? Does it somehow just "smooth" the sine wave? Or does it produce more "steps" in the square wave, so many as to be indistinguishable from a so-called "true" sine wave for all practical purposes? Something else?

Thank you for this education.

[professor95]

Then why do the posts on inverters complain so much about interference on their TVs and other equipment from poorly formed or noisy sine waves? Different animal from an inverter than from "all" generators?

Speaking from personal experience, the difference between measured and actual RMS voltage can be a LOT more than 20-30 volts. (My unloaded 1KW Chinese generator produces an apparent 212 VAC when measured with a cheapie digital multimeter, yet shows a normal 125 VAC on several analog meters.)

I’ll try to address both statements/questions here. As for interference complaints from inverters…… Most of this is related to the abrupt switching currents they produce. Maybe an analogy is how a speaker in your home stereo will “pop” when you turn on a light switch. The current ramp is immediate, not gradual. So called inverter outputs named “modified sine waves” are nothing more than periodic stepped square waves, and the abrupt switching will produce electrical interference in sensitive equipment.

Now, back to the ongoing discussion on the DMM (Digital MultiMeter) and Analog meter readings from the generators discussed in this forum. In my way of thinking the bottom line to this discussion is: Can other members of this forum trust cheap digital multimeters to give them an accurate AC voltage reading from one of these Chinese generators? Or, should they disregard these readings, get a Simpson 260 (an example of a good analog meter) or a high end true rms meter to be sure of their readings?

Virtually all of the non-laboratory grade DMMs rely on the basic principles of Ohm’s Law to determine AC values. Simply stated, the rms value of an AC signal should be equal to the actual power produced by an equivalent DC value. Key word here is power – or the amount of work (ie: energy conversion) produced. If I apply 110 volts of direct current across a fixed resistance of say 480 ohms, then the current in the resistance will be ¼ amp, or 250 milliamps. That 250 milliamps will produce 27.5 watts of power, continuously. This is easy to measure with any multimeter.

When we go to the AC voltage scale, the DMM has to do the same thing, measure current across a fixed resistance. That current will then translate internally to give an AC readout that would produce the same amount of power as the DC value. Of course the AC is not continuous, in a typical period the wave starts at zero, rises to a peak value higher than the DC or rms value, then begins its downward fall, crosses zero and begins a rise to the negative peak value and then returns to zero where it repeats the process. Obviously, since the voltage varies throughout the wave, so will the amount of work done at any particular instant. So, we need to take the highs and lows as well as the period of the wave and determine how much work we do overall. This is the rms (root mean square) value of an AC wave. Most of these inexpensive DMMs rely on the current in this resistance to determine the voltage read-out.

Anyway, unless we are using microprocessor based DMMs, there is always a chance for error due to tolerances within the components used to measure the currents. Also, a high frequency signal will inevitably produce more power for a given period of time than a low frequency signal. Since the current in a fixed resistance is directly propotional to the applied voltage, as the current rises the voltage reading will also rise. Thus, if the frequency is too far off, DMMs will give seemingly inaccurate readings based on the expectation that we are looking at a 60Hz signal.

Discussions like this are my nature. I’m not trying to say one of us is right and the other wrong. I’m just not sure we are singing from the same page of the Hymnal. Being a professor at a college where I teach theory and lab classes to students pursuing a BS degree in Electronics Engineering Technology, I am always asking them questions and challenging their thinking. They do the same to me. That is what I frequently do on this forum. Many of my students refer to me as a “mythbuster”.

I do not question the fact that one may have gotten some pretty varied voltage readings with different DMM’s. I am sure this is true. But, if these readings are that erratic, there is something else (wrong?) going on with the generator that is actually the reason for the error reading. If I had to make a long distance guess, I would say the generator is most likely not producing a 60Hz wave and the non-microprocessor DMM does not know how to interpret the resulting value.

[Navychop]

OK- I'll be "more correct" and say "noisy" sine wave as opposed to "bad" sine wave. First I'll note that there are different ways, as noted above, to produce a sine wave from a generator- brushes vs brushless, etc. The output can be a stepped square wave with so many steps it looks "pure" to almost all (or all) equipment. Or is that only from inverters?

Then why do the posts on inverters complain so much about interference on their TVs and other equipment from poorly formed or noisy sine waves? Different animal from an inverter than from "all" generators?

[Skibane]

professor95 wrote:
There is a considerable amount of noise on the waveform, but unless the engine is extremely slow or fast, or surging - causing a wide swing in any of the above, even a cheap DMM should be pretty darn close to right on the AC scale (at least not off by 20-30 volts).

Speaking from personal experience, the difference between measured and actual RMS voltage can be a LOT more than 20-30 volts. (My unloaded 1KW Chinese generator produces an apparent 212 VAC when measured with a cheapie digital multimeter, yet shows a normal 125 VAC on several analog meters.)

[n7bsn]

professor95 wrote:

Unless he happens to own a high-dollar meter that says "True RMS" on the outside, the voltage he'll measure on anything other than a pure sine wave will be anybody's guess - and we ain't dealing with a pure sine wave, here!

Actually, Joel, they do produce a pure sine wave. All of the necessary components that define a sine wave, or sinusoidal waveform are there.

.....

You know it's amazing how this myth the conventional generators don't produce a "pure sine wave" keep cropping up.

I wonder how these people think the AC coming over the power lines is generated.

[professor95]

Unless he happens to own a high-dollar meter that says "True RMS" on the outside, the voltage he'll measure on anything other than a pure sine wave will be anybody's guess - and we ain't dealing with a pure sine wave, here!

Actually, Joel, they do produce a pure sine wave. All of the necessary components that define a sine wave, or sinusoidal waveform are there.

Regular repeating amplitude, wave number, angular frequency, and phase shift, as well as the vertical offset are all there and consistent.

There is a considerable amount of noise on the waveform, but unless the engine is extremely slow or fast, or surging - causing a wide swing in any of the above, even a cheap DMM should be pretty darn close to right on the AC scale (at least not off by 20-30 volts).

Maybe interpreting the word "pure" is the problem? If you see the noise on the wave as making it "unpure", then I guess we are in agreement.

[professor95]

Is a capacitor the same thing as a condenser?

Now you are showing your age. I have not called a capacitor a condenser since I owned a 53 Studebaker and had to replace the "condenser" with the points.

But yes, they are the same.

As far as availability, the diode is pretty generic. Radio Shack carries them. Best to get one rated at 2A and 1000 PRV, even if the original is a 1 amp unit. The condenser, er.... capacitor, is non- polarized. You may have a hard time finding one of this type with a 24uf rating unless you go to one of the generator suppliers.

[whopkin1]

dieseln wrote:
I have a 3000w chinese generator that I bought last summer. JF200 honda clone engine with (2) 120vac outlets that are wired together. We just lost power here for 28 hours (wind storm - downed wires). The little generator pulled us through running the furnace, the fridge, a freezer, and a few lights (not all at the same time).

Afterwards I did a voltage check on the generator outlet with my multimeter and it's putting out between 144 and 150 vac (!). I can lower the rpms by pushing on a little black plastic lever on top of the carb (thus lowering the VAC to 120) but there doesn't appear to be any way to keep it set. Should I continue down this path of lowering the rpms or is the voltage controlled from the generator side with a voltage regulator thing....

Any help appreciated...great thread, great site!

I wouldn't bother with it.
First off, it's more important for the generator to be on speed for frequency (these are "2-pole" generators, to create 60 cycles per second the rotor has to turn at 60 revolutions per second, or 3600 RPM. Motors are the frequency critical components, they'll suck up a little high voltage like nothing's happening. If you're really into looking at the voltage though, do it while you're running a decent load on it, I bet you'll see closer to 120. You don't adjust voltage with speed, that's the voltage regulator's job, and it does it by varying the field current. I do like the electric motor driven clock idea, but it's been a long time, last century, since I've seen one.
Right now, I'm going through my wiring on my Christmas present, it didn't set anything on fire during today's test (hopefully somewhere around 15A total not counting surges) so once I get the nit-picking stuff worked out (my +12 VDC lead came loose as I was tightening the thumbnut and I'm perplexed about frame ground and neutral) I'll set it up for a scope test next month. Right now I just want to stuff it away.

[whopkin1]

rmplstlskn wrote:

FulltimeDreamer wrote:
RMPLSTLSKN,

I purchased one of the UST 3000 GT generators from my local Pepboys back in the summer. It supplies all 25 AMPS to the twist and lock outlet. I used a female 30 AMP plug along with the included twist and lock connector to supply power to the TT. I have been able to run my 15,000 BTU A/C and microwave from this unit. It cranks very easily, required no modification and is relatively quiet. In short, I'm happy with this unit.

My unit didn't include a 220v twist-lock connector, only a tool pouch. The Wen PP 3500's had two 120v and one 220v connector included.

Some more info on the UST TG-3000:
It uses a Eastern Tool & Equip. (ELQ) 6.5HP motor, the ETQ-200.
It looks to be identical to the Red Hawk TG3000 and very similiar to the ELQ models but different outlet configs.
It has a DELIXI breaker (D247 C16) and 2 120v outlets and one 220v outlet with a toggle switch for either 120 or 120/220.

The company that distributes the TG-3000 no longer has gasoline generators on their web site so I doubt parts will be readily available, however the identical (has the same parts diagrams) RED HAWKunit (JD-3500/TG3000) has a very well designed web site with all the parts listed (no prices though) and appears to be a top-line company. So I am more at ease with parts availability.

I am more at ease with parts for the TG unit over the Wen PP as I searched the internet for over an hour trying to find a place that carried WEN generator parts and could find NOTHING. I couldn't even find Wen's web site, if they have one.

Thanks Mr.Wizard for the info on the BRUSHES being on the FIELD coil. They were indeed on a field coil from the look of the schematic. For standard appliances (my main use is for a HOME well pump, oil furnace) is the lack of the more advanced field coil brushes a big enough deal to get the other unit (Wen)?

BTW, I use my Honda EU2000i for most HOUSEHOLD (and camping) loads as the Honda is on my back porch (quiet) and the TG-3000 will be out in the carport/workshed area closer to the well and furnace. My computers and electronics like the EU2000i power.... :B

Rmpl

I also purchased the UST TTG-3000 genset. I also have a 5KW old Coleman MAXA (so old, it's green, and you plug into the generator's head, but no further digression). I put the TG-3000 to the "test" today. Right off, fuel started leaking from flow valve, not much, just a drop or two per minute, but noticable. Drain, remove the valve, and found the o-ring deformed and obviously overtightened. Replaced it with one I had that was a little thicker, and didn't tighten it down so much.
Fired it up, gave it a five minute warm-up before applying the load, and it worked for three hours running a 6.5A - 11 amp surge refrig., a 4.8A (unspecified surge, but I'll assume it's close to double) refrig., a 5.0A unspec'ed deep freeze, a 20" hi-velocity fan, two 80 watt fluorescent light fixtures, and a 13" television. I didn't apply all the loads at once, the reefers and freezer were separated by about 5 minutes, and I figured that all three of them wouldn't surge on at the same time (they were simply unplugged from the utility, so they didn't start off "warm", and just added the lights and fans as I hauled them over and plugged them in. Used just over an estimated 1/4 of a tank (not even a gallon) by my estimate over the three hours. While taking measurements, I noticed that I had nothing between hot and ground. That's where I'd like to kick off this discussion, I thought that "ground" (the bottom lead in the 120 outlet, was supposed to be tied to neutral. I'll post my drawings of the inside of the electrical box, I had to take it apart to fix the DC positive lead that came loose when I was screwing the thumbnut back onto it. Before I box it all back up, should the frame ground of the genset and neutral be tied together somewhere? The ground lead of the 120 volt outlet IS tied to the frame ground, but neither is tied to neutral, so what's the sense in grounding the generator set?
BTW, this was a Christmas present from my son and daughter. I wasn't in Florida when Wilma hit, but neither one of them nor their friends could get the old MAXA started, when I got back three days after the storm, I had a bear of a time getting it going, and it bucked and wheezed so bad I only ran some lights with it, I never put a compressored appliance to it for fear of burning something up, and it was too dark to go without lights. I doubt there's a receipt available for it. Anyhow, while I'm sketching the "insides" of the electric box, please advise about the ground on the TG-3000.

[Navychop]

Well, my Kipor 3500ti will be here Friday. I'll haul it in a 4x4 pickup, and I suppose I'll wheel it up and down from the bed on ramps. They sell complete ramps in steel (which'll rust) or poly, both of which seem to be overkill for a 132 lb generator. I'm leaning toward buying the "instant ramp kit" which is the top and bottom "end pieces" that you put onto a 2x8 or 2x12. The generator is only 17" wide. I suppose my wife and I could just lift it, but she's not too keen on that, plus I have a bad back.

How do you folks transport, load & unload the heavier generators? Any thoughts on the ramp idea, above?

[dieseln]

The voltage on the Chinese generators that are "brushless" is often regulated by an AC capacitor with a value of around 24uF and 300 volts AC in addition to a diode across the field coil. Failure of either one of these components can cause a higher than expected voltage. Usually it is the diode that fails, but we have had some reports of capacitors blowing up. The capacitor is external, often close to the outlet. The diode can be accessed behind the end cover on the generator itself

Wow thanks for the info!
So thats what that black box is. Located behind the control panel it has "24uF 300 vac" printed on it. It has two tongs with wires attached that run back into the generator. One of the tongs appears corroded and quite burnt or charred.

I should have mentioned the generator does have a analog type volt meter on it - it fluxuates between 140 and 160 volts with steady rpm from engine. I will look for the diode in the morning. I also try the clock counting thing in case I've changed something I shouldn't have. I'm guessing these parts are generic and probably easily attainable, right?

My multimeter is a $20 cheapee...

Is a capacitor the same thing as a condenser?

thanks,

[Skibane]

professor95 wrote:
The voltage on these generators is given as rms. As far as digital vs. analog meters, both should only read rms values, not peak.

Unless he happens to own a high-dollar meter that says "True RMS" on the outside, the voltage he'll measure on anything other than a pure sine wave will be anybody's guess - and we ain't dealing with a pure sine wave, here! :B

[professor95]

Afterwards I did a voltage check on the generator outlet with my multimeter and it's putting out between 144 and 150 vac (!). I can lower the rpms by pushing on a little black plastic lever on top of the carb (thus lowering the VAC to 120) but there doesn't appear to be any way to keep it set. Should I continue down this path of lowering the rpms or is the voltage controlled from the generator side with a voltage regulator thing....

On the majority of these generators, the frequency of the sine wave alternations is determined by engine speed. The frequency should be very close to 60 Hz. Changing the speed can considerably throw off the frequency.

Before you start adjusting engine speed, you should determine the frequency. This is, of course, best done with a counter. But, if you have an old electric clock (the ones with hands that plug into the wall) and a stop watch you can also determine frequency. Plug the clock into the generator. Start the stopwatch when the second hand on the clock reaches 12. Stop the stopwatch after the clock shows a full minute. Compare the times - they should be identical. If the clock is faster than the stopwatch, then the number of excess seconds is the amount the generator frequency is off (fast). Just the opposite for it being slow. Just remember, the generator is suppose to produce sixty cycles in a second and 3600 cycles a minute. The clock uses the line frequency as its time base. The governor for the engine speed on an AC generator should be adjusted to frequency, not voltage.

The voltage on the Chinese generators that are "brushless" is often regulated by an AC capacitor with a value of around 24uF and 300 volts AC in addition to a diode across the field coil. Failure of either one of these components can cause a higher than expected voltage. Usually it is the diode that fails, but we have had some reports of capacitors blowing up. The capacitor is external, often close to the outlet. The diode can be accessed behind the end cover on the generator itself.

The voltage on these generators is given as rms. As far as digital vs. analog meters, both should only read rms values, not peak. There are a few (expensive) digital meters than can read peak voltage, which would be right at 170 volts for a 120 volt rms signal. A 149 volt peak reading would translate to 105 volts rms (multiply rms by 1.414 to get peak). But, it doesn't sound like you have a peak reading meter to me.

Hope this helps to find your problem.

[Skibane]

dieseln, there should be an engine speed adjustment screw. Usually, it adjusts the tension on a spring that pulls on the same linkage that runs from the engine governor shaft to the throttle shaft on the carb.

BTW, if you're using a digital multimeter, you might want to re-check your voltage measurements first with an analog (moving-needle) multimeter. As an example, my digital multimeter reads WAY higher than the actual voltage that the generator is producing.

[dieseln]

I have a 3000w chinese generator that I bought last summer. JF200 honda clone engine with (2) 120vac outlets that are wired together. We just lost power here for 28 hours (wind storm - downed wires). The little generator pulled us through running the furnace, the fridge, a freezer, and a few lights (not all at the same time).

Afterwards I did a voltage check on the generator outlet with my multimeter and it's putting out between 144 and 150 vac (!). I can lower the rpms by pushing on a little black plastic lever on top of the carb (thus lowering the VAC to 120) but there doesn't appear to be any way to keep it set. Should I continue down this path of lowering the rpms or is the voltage controlled from the generator side with a voltage regulator thing....

Any help appreciated...great thread, great site!