Extreme Cold+Propane Tanks: Advice Needed!

[greenrvgreen]

I know there are several forum members who routinely camp in sub-zero temperatures, and I'm hoping they can chime in with their experiences. I'm hoping next winter to camp WITHOUT hookups in places where temps regularly dip into the single digits (F) or below zero overnight. Temps would rise in the daytime but are not likely to rise above freezing. And as I said I would be boondocking without hookups.

My question for those who camp in cold temps, what can be done to prevent your LP tanks from getting so cold that the gas no longer flows? I see there are tank heaters out there, do they work? And what about the piping? If the LP needs to flow twenty feet outside the cabin before it gets to the LP generator, is that an additional vulnerability? And what should be done? Pipe heaters and/or insulation?

Thanks!

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Professional propane distributors mount infrared heaters to shine on bulk tanks (like 500 gallon size) during bitter cold. DO NOT FORGET THE REGULATOR. Professionals call it "Freeze Up".

Check with a professional propane distributor (a distributor has a fleet of bulk trucks that fill 500 gallon pad mount tanks). They will give you professional advice.

In my case 35 years ago I had to change the small RV regulator over to a larger 2 stage regulator to stop freeze up. -29F.

[alfredmay]

I second the propane not butane comment. Filled one of my two tanks in Florida in the early spring and then went north. It froze........ took me a bit to figure the problem out.

[pianotuna]

Hi Max.

Yes.

Insulating the feed line to the generator would be the worst thing you could do unless the ambient was lower than -42.5 C.

Get a horizontal tank in the 250 to 500 gallon range. They can be rented.

SDcampowneroperator wrote:

In temps nearing those lows, only very large tanks, say 250 to 500 gal. tanks can boil off enough vapor to power a 35 k furnace. At minus 40 c or f its all the same,
' Bobs' trouble was due to small tanks that could not boil off enough vapor. fast enough.
Aint that right. Bob? , 'Tuna?
Your friend , been there, Max

[wa8yxm]

What can be done is to make sure they are full of PROPANE not BUTANE

Why:
Vapor temp of PROPANE is roughly -40 (39.something as I recall) at any temp over -30 you will have enough pressure for everything to work.. at -40, it will not.

NOTE; at -40 it don't matter if you are using "C" or "F". same temp.

Butane however the vapor point is right around the freezing point of water. So if it's freezing out, it don't work

SOME stores.. Epically here where I am in the "Sunny South" lie to you and sell the cheaper Butane at Propane prices.. Butane gives slightly more heat per unit volume so nobody comnplains.. But if you get cold. it don't work.

[BobsYourUncle]

SDcampowneroperator wrote:

' Bobs' trouble was due to small tanks that could not boil off enough vapor. fast enough.
Aint that right. Bob? , 'Tuna?
Your friend , been there, Max

Yup! That's right! 🙂

[Chris_Bryant]

Horizontal tanks are far better than vertical cylinders in cold weather, due to the larger "wetted" surface. For vertical cylinders, keeping them as full as possible is the key- they need to absorb the heat for vaporization from the outside-

[westend]

I'd suggest to try just the tanks and piping you have before going to any heroic measures.

I used to regularly fish on ice with just a conventional 20 lb cylinder and a rubber hose that ran to the inside of the fish house. Never had a freeze up problem. A larger cylinder (100 lbs.) will definitely eliminate any freeze problems, especially if there is no water inside the regulator or lines.

[Rvpapa]

You need a genset fitted out for liquid (not vapor) withdrawl, and the vaporiser as part of the genset and usually warmed by engine exhaust.
Art,

[Searching_Ut]

The son in law has been spending winters in a fifth wheel either up on the Canadian border in North Dakota, or down in Wyoming where it hasn't been much warmer. Propane hasn't been an issue other than the quantities he burns through. A 500 gallon tank doesn't always get him through the winter without having to call for a re-fill.

In temperatures that low you'll have to do a lot of work to figure out the weak spots of your trailer and try to fix them to survive the cold. You'll most likely need skirting, a means of getting water into your tanks as you probably won't be able to keep hooked up to water all the time without troubles, and of course a means of draining without freezing the lines and fittings up. RV fridges are problematic when it's really cold, and of course if the furnace quits on you there isn't much time to take care of things before you run into freeze damage issues.

Quite doable, but can be an adventure.

[SDcampowneroper]

Propanes boiling point is as pianotuna said, -42 C, 44.3 f, There will not be any pressure or flow from the tank at temps below that.
In temps nearing those lows, only very large tanks, say 250 to 500 gal. tanks can boil off enough vapor to power a 35 k furnace. At minus 40 c or f its all the same,
' Bobs' trouble was due to small tanks that could not boil off enough vapor. fast enough.
Aint that right. Bob? , 'Tuna?
Your friend , been there, Max

[BobsYourUncle]

I lived FT in a 3 season TT for two Alberta winters.
There were a few times when it was around minus 34C that I had issues with my LP not flowing properly and my furnace wouldn't function properly. Due to it running a lot the flow was a lot higher.
There were a few times when I had to warm up my 2 30 pounders to make it flow.
I used a body heating pad, the one you use on sore muscles. I took the bottle cover off and put the pad between the bottles. It did the trick for me.
However, I did have a 15 amp plug in so I had 110 to run the pad with. You without hookups would have to find an alternate way to warm things up. As mentioned, batteries would be an issue. They would go flat in a hurry in those conditions.
If you are only into single digits below zero, it's not that big of an issue. Should be ok.
Then there's the water flow issues with pipes freezing..... That's another topic.

[Lwiddis]

Subzero, as in Fahrenheit, is too cold for me and my Winnie.

[DrewE]

The gas flows fine at low temperatures; the problem comes from the propane boiling/evaporating in the tank, and there not being enough heat from the environment to keep up with the supply. (Well, also if it's cold enough the vapor pressure can fall too low.)

An LP generator needs a good bit more gas than most appliances and probably runs at a higher pressure. I would expect it to have trouble well before the furnace or stove. I might consider looking for a gasoline generator, some model that's known to start well in cold weather, assuming running a generator was generally a necessity. With sufficient solar, for instance, it may not be at most latitudes even during the winter. If you're in Fairbanks or some place like that solar would not be very much help during the winter.

[Dutch_12078]

Our LP furnace heated Adirondack cottage has kept us warm at -20? with no issues. And our LP fired coach furnace has kept us warm at -4? also with no issues. At the temps you're talking about, it should not be a problem. Keep in mind there are plenty of folks heating with LP in the northern states where even colder temps are pretty routine in the winter.