Dual Cam Setup

mrekim wrote:

ST255/75R15 - Load range D 2540@ 65 PSI.

If it comes to it, I will convert to E or even 16" E if they will fit.

I have an open deck trailer with 16" tires already. Although the rims will never swap over (8 lug vs 5), I can still share off rim spares between them.

Boy do we have more in common with each other then one thinks... See here.., including the flat deck... ST225/75R15 to LT225/75R16 Conversion I had to "work" at getting the 16's in there but I will never go back to ST's now. See here for more on my tire saga

If you can't make the jump to 16's, ST225/75R15's do come in E load range. You just have to deal with the rim pressure of 80 psi. Some folks luck out and their rims where 80 lb rims.

mrekim wrote:

I have Firestone Transforce HT 'E' rated tires. They have been good towing a ~6,000 lb load on an open deck trailer. No other suspension tweaks on the Excursion yet. I'm aware of F250/350 spring mods,air bags, and rear swaybar upgrades. I'm still researching that stuff. It may be a whole different thread...

It sounds like I should almost shoot for 1200 lbs TW as the trailer gets more loaded down. That can be balanced with rear storage, to the extent that I stay as close to 13% tongue weight as possible.

I assume that if everything seems stable at slightly lower percentages that I should be good to do.

My current order of importance is:

1) rear sway bar
2) Rear Springs
3) Front Springs

I guess all those would benefit if using a Hensley so might as well take that path.

Odd you mention the Transforce. This weekend I helped one of my camper buds in the CG tweak in his hitch and deal with soggy tires. He too had the HT E's on his Dodge. The tire needs to approach close to full pressure before it get's stiff. However he is on 1/2 ton suspension and he upgraded to LT's from his P's trying to get out of wiggle. You have stiffer suspension so that helps greatly. Point is you can very well be in a tire pressure experiment. You have to have enough to pressure for the load, that is a must, next is for stiffness all the way to max cold side wall pressure. 5 psi increments is the experiment. The rears may start at 75 or 80 and the fronts 60 and then keep going up as needed. If it gets to bounce so hard the front end jumps left to right, back it down 5 psi. On the odd chance you have the EX diesel over the V10, the diesel will allow the higher pressure and not so much bounce as the engine just plan weighs more. Airing tires up and down after towing trips is a way of dealing with it empty.

An open flat deck tows a lot better then the 34 foot bricks we pull. The frontal area of wind resistance adds a whole new dynamic once you start going over 45 mph. That seems to be the critical speed when "things" start to happen.

And yes, get your TW up as high as the receiver and bars will take you. It will not be that hard once you start loading "stuff" Come a year from now, revisit this as some how, stuff all adds up... I know I filled mine... If your GVWR is 10K, then at 1,200# that is 12%. While 13% and even better 15% helps, it is only "part" of the solution. If you are at 12%, and have an issue, going to 13% is not going to cure it. The issue to watch for on the lower %'s is when loads change, like both LP bottles go empty, rare but not impossible. Or gear got moved to the back wall and lost some from up front. Those gear shifts you have to watch so you do not go too low by accident. Lift trailers have this worse than larger one. 100# change has a lot more effect on a light trailer then a heavy one. Just be aware of it and plan to not get in that low spot.

On the Reese DC, higher TW means more high friction resistance too.

The one down side to the EX is the receiver. There is only 1 place I know of who will take the liability on of changing the receiver. A place in CA can do it but they have to have the truck there to do it.

A pullrite is an option too. It goes under the EX receiver and it will hands down eliminate sway as the entire concept does not allow it. New, it is cheaper than the Hensley, however it is low under the EX.

Good luck, drop me a PM etc if you need to yak off line.

Enjoy the camper.

John

JBarca wrote:

Nice layout! I have seen this before, the Keystone Bullet has one similar. Tracking yours down I believe it is this one.
http://www.coachmenrv.com/products/freedomexpress.aspx?page=floorplandetails&floorplanid=4884

Yes, that's the one. Thanks for the comment on the layout. The huge living area was the deal closer for us.

JBarca wrote:

A heads up, I do not know what size tires and load range you have on the TT, when you get fully loaded a good thing to do is get individual wheel weights and try and get ideally 20% extra reserve capacity in the tire.

ST255/75R15 - Load range D 2540@ 65 PSI.

If it comes to it, I will convert to E or even 16" E if they will fit.

I have an open deck trailer with 16" tires already. Although the rims will never swap over (8 lug vs 5), I can still share off rim spares between them.

JBarca wrote:

I hope that you where setup on high enough capacity tires from the get go. If you are over weight on one wheel for the tire, you will need to shift gear.

I'll keep an eye out. All the local scales don't have any means to straddle the pad. I guess I could rig up something with the Sherline sale to get the individual weights - or at least see if there's a large imbalance.

JBarca wrote:

I will add this, just as a friendly head up. The camper is 35 feet long and you have the ability to reach 8,500 to 9,000# without too much effort. The loaded TW ideally is sitting up at 13%, and 15% is better for that size camper. You are doing a good job at trying to optimize the Reese DC. You will need too on a camper of this size. The EX most likely will benefit from the upgrades I pointed you too. If after optimizing it out, TT, hitch and TV, truck tires and you cannot obtain stable towing, research Hensley and Propride hitches. I have a buddy who had a 05 EX and a 34 ft Jayco and he went DC to hensley, however tires played a roll too for him.

I have Firestone Transforce HT 'E' rated tires. They have been good towing a ~6,000 lb load on an open deck trailer. No other suspension tweaks on the Excursion yet. I'm aware of F250/350 spring mods,air bags, and rear swaybar upgrades. I'm still researching that stuff. It may be a whole different thread...


It sounds like I should almost shoot for 1200 lbs TW as the trailer gets more loaded down. That can be balanced with rear storage, to the extent that I stay as close to 13% tongue weight as possible.

I assume that if everything seems stable at slightly lower percentages that I should be good to do.


My current order of importance is:

1) rear sway bar
2) Rear Springs
3) Front Springs

I guess all those would benefit if using a Hensley so might as well take that path.

JBarca wrote:

Yes, parallel to the ground is what is meant.

Ok, parallel to the ground it is.

mrekim wrote:

JBarca wrote:


Odds are high you will be up against rear axle/receiver issue on loaded TW before you reach 10,000# loaded camper. Floor plan and where you can put gear drives the TW. I may have missed it, what year/model is the camper? I can look up the floor plan and see if I can tell any loading attributes in relation to TW. We happen to be a rear living layout folks and once that floor plan is loaded, they can be very tongue heavy.

Here's the floorplan:


Axles are split design and under the dinette/Kitchen. Fresh water drain is under pantry.

Nice layout! I have seen this before, the Keystone Bullet has one similar. Tracking yours down I believe it is this one.
http://www.coachmenrv.com/products/freedomexpress.aspx?page=floorplandetails&floorplanid=4884

I see you are rear living area camper folks too! Yes, we like that set up as well. See ours here:


What I was looking for on yours was the declared dry TW and dry GVW. This helps establish a base line of how the camper is built and the axle location in relation to the floor plan. If that online spec sheet is correct it has a 766# dry TW with a 6,876# dry GVW 766/6876= 11.4% dry TW. You will need to load it ti get it higher. Coachman has caught up that this floor plan loads tongue heavy, and it has 2-slides rear of the axles. But it has a dresser slide forward of the axles. Your TW will rise as you load the camper. The galley is over the axles, which is good. The bath and front bedroom with pass thru cargo hole is where a lot of the storage is and will drive the loaded TW. You have some storage in the rear cabinets and that will unload TW. The good news is the fresh tank appears by your comments to be close to the axles, which is good as it helps make hauling fresh water closer to neutral on gaining or loosing TW when hauling fresh water.

The spread axles will benefit from a level towing camper.

A heads up, I do not know what size tires and load range you have on the TT, when you get fully loaded a good thing to do is get individual wheel weights and try and get ideally 20% extra reserve capacity in the tire. I hope that you where setup on high enough capacity tires from the get go. If you are over weight on one wheel for the tire, you will need to shift gear. Run the tires at max cold sidewall pressure all the time.

I will add this, just as a friendly head up. The camper is 35 feet long and you have the ability to reach 8,500 to 9,000# without too much effort. The loaded TW ideally is sitting up at 13%, and 15% is better for that size camper. You are doing a good job at trying to optimize the Reese DC. You will need too on a camper of this size. The EX most likely will benefit from the upgrades I pointed you too. If after optimizing it out, TT, hitch and TV, truck tires and you cannot obtain stable towing, research Hensley and Propride hitches. I have a buddy who had a 05 EX and a 34 ft Jayco and he went DC to hensley, however tires played a roll too for him.

In my case, I have 16% loaded TW on 9,950# GVW TT, 1,700# WD bars, 1-ton suspension, stiff sidewall tires and 167" wheel base truck and the Reese DC. The rig is stable. Before I upgraded to the F350, I was using my K2500 Suburban. I was also TW strapped on the Burb and at the pulling limit so I could only load the camper part way until the F350 came. 1,200# is all the Burb could hanlde and stay under the limits whiht what gear I had inside. I had a negative experience with new LTX tires on the Burb and while I got it under control with air pressure, I was on the edge. The F350 gained back the stability from stiffer suspension and longer wheelbase and a tire brand/type that I will not change as it works.

mrekim wrote:

JBarca wrote:

A good question is what should be used as "level"??? I have found on several campers and longer is sometimes worse, the main frame is rigid over the axles, bows down from the axles to the front header and then the A frame can be uphill or down hill. And the frame behind the axles may bow down. I have found going inside the camper with a 2 foot or longer carpenters level on the floor just ahead of the axles is a good happy medium place to declare camper level. If you want to get real nervous, pull a string tight along the main frame rail and see for yourself. A new unloaded camper is normally better than a full loaded one.

I was assuming level should be "parallel to the ground". When I did my last measurement, which nose up at least 5/8" and more than 1" on most measurement attempts, I did this exercise:

Place 2' level on ground under TT in front of axles. Use coins at end of level to adjust until level. I needed a quarter and a nickel on the TV end of the level. So the ground appeared to slope down toward TV. Then I put the level on the lip of the I-Beam frame and found I needed the same quarter and nickel under the TV end to get level.

Might this approach be better than trying to measure from the frame to the ground - and "better" than just level on the floor?

I guess I'm confused about parallel to the ground vs absolutely level.

Yes, parallel to the ground is what is meant. Level is only a point of reference to a level road. Your frame since the camper is new and not yet totally loaded should be a good point of reference. That is unless you get 2 or 3 different readings of significance now when you check it in 3 different places along the frame. Once you load it fully and the frame starts to flex, the floor inside ahead of the axles may offer a better spot. By adding your shims to the level on the ground and then the frame or floor is acceptable. You are using the level as a tool to declare parallel. Alternatively, put the edge of a piece of masking tape or sharpie mark the tape on the level tube as a reference point marker in relation to the bubble verses the shims. Both are creating "parallel to the ground".

Good luck and happy camping in your new camper. Nice layout.

John

JBarca wrote:


Odds are high you will be up against rear axle/receiver issue on loaded TW before you reach 10,000# loaded camper. Floor plan and where you can put gear drives the TW. I may have missed it, what year/model is the camper? I can look up the floor plan and see if I can tell any loading attributes in relation to TW. We happen to be a rear living layout folks and once that floor plan is loaded, they can be very tongue heavy.

Here's the floorplan:


Axles are split design and under the dinette/Kitchen. Fresh water drain is under pantry.

JBarca wrote:

A good question is what should be used as "level"??? I have found on several campers and longer is sometimes worse, the main frame is rigid over the axles, bows down from the axles to the front header and then the A frame can be uphill or down hill. And the frame behind the axles may bow down. I have found going inside the camper with a 2 foot or longer carpenters level on the floor just ahead of the axles is a good happy medium place to declare camper level. If you want to get real nervous, pull a string tight along the main frame rail and see for yourself. A new unloaded camper is normally better than a full loaded one.

I was assuming level should be "parallel to the ground". When I did my last measurement, which nose up at least 5/8" and more than 1" on most measurement attempts, I did this exercise:

Place 2' level on ground under TT in front of axles. Use coins at end of level to adjust until level. I needed a quarter and a nickle on the TV end of the level. So the ground appeared to slope down toward TV. Then I put the level on the lip of the I-Beam frame and found I needed the same quarter and nickle under the TV end to get level.

Might this approach be better than trying to measure from the frame to the ground - and "better" than just level on the floor?


I guess I'm confused about parallel to the ground vs absolutely level.

mrekim wrote:

JBarca wrote:

1. The ability to gain more clearance in the DC area so the WD bar does not interfere with the DC arm during compound angle turn.

2. The ability to lower the hitch head on the 6" A frame with the ball coupler on top to help avoid a crash of the trunnion bar lug into the frame during hard angle turn.

I suspect no 2 is going to not get you since you are back on the standard height ball. Since you are on the new 1 piece head, it may help but may not cure. Point: check it out.

We double checked #2 and were able to clear everything on flat ground:



But the frame clearance was a little tight:



I did forget to think about and attempt to test for compound angle issues though. I was excited to be able to flip the hitch shank back over and get back some ground clearance.

snip..
Yes, you have a point with the trunnion hitting the frame on a compound angle.

If you are concerned about the shank hitting the ground, don't be with the standard shank. See this 6" drop shank on my K2500 Burb. I had 6" ground clearance and I only bounced it twice in 25K miles on that setup. Both times it was my fault as I hit a pot hole in my drive way hard and bounced the back of the truck. Your Ex I think is even a little higher than my Burb. And yes, the compound angle turn is the one to watch out for. It does not take many degrees of the truck on different ground than the TT to have the problem show up. The compound angle issue is what gets most folks. Only tow to dead level CG's...LOL

This is a 5" A frame camper

mrekim wrote:
I can try this. From my last photo with the 1" ball I was nose down 1" with that setting and 2" high with the shank flipped up. So, it seems like I should be able to simply go UP one hole with the 1" ball and be within 1/4" of level. It's beyond me why I didn't try that yesterday....

Hey, don't beat yourself up, it happens... Some times stepping back the light tuns on

mrekim wrote:
Yes, it's an Excursion 1,200 max tongue weight. Any Excursion specific advice is welcomed.

Search the forums here they have many documented up grades to help the soft sprung rear axle and roll of the truck. A Helwig sway bar on the rear axle if you do not have one and the Roadmaster RAS system. I "think" this is their master site. They changed it from the last time I visited it but it appears to be the same. Must of updated the site. http://www.activesuspension.com/

mrekim wrote:

JBarca wrote:

Your camper is empty I "think" right now, is this correct?

It has some stuff in it, most of what we would bring on a trip sans food and clothes, 49 Gal of water, and a couple of gallons in the grey/black tanks. I did pack some tools and chairs as well as the spare hitch head and trunnion bars and it added about 50 lbs to the tongue weight.

While your doing great! When you fully load the camper and the EX, you will be resetting WD over again.

mrekim wrote:

Yes, I think we're going to be near the limit on axle ratings. We limited the trailer to under 10,000 GVWR in order to not overload the Excursion.

If I use the WD to get the front suspension back to "unloaded" weight then the tongue weight is really going to be distributed between the TT rear axle and the TT axles right? The WD is just ensuring that TV weight is not transferred to the rear axle.

Odds are high you will be up against rear axle/receiver issue on loaded TW before you reach 10,000# loaded camper. Floor plan and where you can put gear drives the TW. I may have missed it, what year/model is the camper? I can look up the floor plan and see if I can tell any loading attributes in relation to TW. We happen to be a rear living layout folks and once that floor plan is loaded, they can be very tongue heavy.

To your comments on the WD hitch and the tongue weight, you used a set of words that might be interpreted incorrectly. We are really not moving tongue weight. The WD hitch helps transfer some of the heavy loads born by the rear axle imposed by the leverage of the rear overhang of the truck. Rear overhang being distance from center of rear axle to center of ball creates a real good lever. Yours might be in the 65" range. When you adjust WD, you transfer "some" of the weight off the rear axle to the front axle and the TT axles. How much moves where is dependent on wheel base, rear over hang, TT tow ball to the TT axle distance and WD bar tension. The rear axle is still bearing a high percentage of the TT tongue weight. The tongue weight is still there. Just when WD is adjusted properly the rear axle does not have to bear all the TW plus the added mechanical advantage force of the rear overhang lever effect. There is a sticky on top of the towing forum by Ron Gratz to help show the moments effect going on when WD is adjusted. Does that help clear this up some? When you adjust WD the force down on the tow ball goes up really high. A WD hitch does not change TW.

mrekim wrote:

JBarca wrote:

When you are nose high by a lot, and I consider 1" plus a lot, in some TT's this can cause instability in towing by the way the air current hit the top of the camper. When you are in the slight nose down position the air hits the of the camper different not causing negative handling characteristics.

Would this instability be some kind of up/down motion?

It "depends" on how the wind hits the camper. The effect is not always the same as the center of gravity of the TT and the mass/stability of the TV can overcome or help aggravate the issue. Not every TV and TT will have a problem towing nose high, however when the right conditions show up, it might rear it's ugly head. Light truck, soft suspension, heavy camper and TT nose high is not a good combo. The instability is more left to right than up and down axially with the center of the TV and TT from what I know. Up and down axial motion can occur from lack of enough WD and what we call proposing. (bobbing up and down going forward)

mrekim wrote:

JBarca wrote:
In summary, my thoughts for all conditions are, go back to the 1" hi rise ball, 6 links under load, stick with the new cast head and shim, tilt the head as needed for WD, 1st load the camper and the truck like you are going camping. Then adjust the WD, (with the DC in place) to return the front end of the TV very close to unhitched weight/height. When done, get the correct drop shank to level out the camper for towing. While you can only be accurate within 1 shank hole, choosing between being 1/2" high to 1/2" low, pick low. Being 3/4" high to 1/4" low, pick low. Being 1/4" high to 3/4" low pick hi.

Interestingly enough, the new cast head did not require a shim. It was the old 3 piece head that did. I'll go back to the 1" ball and set it up at the highest setting with this shank in the "lower mode" and see where I end up. I'm a little gun shy on measuring the frame on the front and rear of trailer since I got such varied measurements with the same setup. I'll try a different lot next time too...

A good question is what should be used as "level"??? I have found on several campers and longer is sometimes worse, the main frame is rigid over the axles, bows down from the axles to the front header and then the A frame can be uphill or down hill. And the frame behind the axles may bow down. I have found going inside the camper with a 2 foot or longer carpenters level on the floor just ahead of the axles is a good happy medium place to declare camper level. If you want to get real nervous, pull a string tight along the main frame rail and see for yourself. A new unloaded camper is normally better than a full loaded one.

mrekim wrote:

JBarca wrote:
Being 1 1/4" plus or greater lower starts raising the concerns front TT axle bearing more weight than it should be for the long haul.

This is interesting. Is this the case no matter what kind of axles you have? I would have figured that axles that have the equalizer between them would not suffer from that problem?

Also, if the axles are of the split type, would the problem be worse because the axle are further apart?

Torsion axles may have it worse than leaf springs but leaf springs have it too. Unless you have measured it, all 4 wheel locations have different weights. I know mine do as I was weighing each wheel independent to sort out a tire failure issue. The camper is not built dead equal left to right and after you fully load it, it will be different than it was built. The equalizer helps as the running gear goes over bumps however if you are nose high or nose low the weight is still there, again how much depends on the CG of the TT. See this Dexter application manual, bottom center for a down load. It has some good trailer design facts http://www.dexteraxle.com/resource_library_

I want to applaud you in your quest to understand your hitch system, TV and TT trying to make it as safe of a setup for towing as you can. You are learning more right now then many. And yes, it will take some time but when you are done you will understand what each adjustment does and why and reap the benefits of pleasurable towing. Folks who have rigs that just fall together nicely do not learn as much as those of us who have to work at it...

Keep at it, your doing great! Once you get the hitch done then comes understanding the TV and towing characteristics. 3 areas have to come together to create an enjoyable and stable tow rig. The TT balanced correctly as step 1, the WD hitch with anti sway controls and the TV itself. They all need to be optimized and do their part. This is especially true when using high friction type sway controls on a large camper.

Good luck and hope this helps

John

JBarca wrote:

1. The ability to gain more clearance in the DC area so the WD bar does not interfere with the DC arm during compound angle turn.

2. The ability to lower the hitch head on the 6" A frame with the ball coupler on top to help avoid a crash of the trunnion bar lug into the frame during hard angle turn.

I suspect no 2 is going to not get you since you are back on the standard height ball. Since you are on the new 1 piece head, it may help but may not cure. Point: check it out.

We double checked #2 and were able to clear everything on flat ground:



But the frame clearance was a little tight:




I did forget to think about and attempt to test for compound angle issues though. I was excited to be able to flip the hitch shank back over and get back some ground clearance.

JBarca wrote:



A heads up, odds are high going back to the standard ball, while you might have DC clearance on 6 links with the new all cast head, you may have sacrificed getting a trunnion lug hit on the frame in the advance stages of a turn on a compound angle. I would check to see it that is occurring. You helped the ball nut hit going to the new head, just you may have forgot about the cast lug hit on the standard ball.

Yes, you have a point with the trunnion hitting the frame on a compound angle. See the photo above with the regular ball.

JBarca wrote:

Here is a thought that I would investigate. Go back to the 1" hi rise ball on the new head and run at 6 links under tension. This creates all the needed clearance both at the DC area and the trunnion lug and frame area. Now you need to deal with the high trailer nose problem.

I can try this. From my last photo with the 1" ball I was nose down 1" with that setting and 2" high with the shank flipped up. So, it seems like I should be able to simply go UP one hole with the 1" ball and be within 1/4" of level.

It's beyond me why I didn't try that yesterday....

JBarca wrote:

Looking at your pics, I see what I think is the bumper and the rear swinging doors of an Excursion. Am I right? I have helped a few buddies with their Ex's and know some of their traits.

Yes, it's an Excursion 1,200 max tongue weight. Any Excursion specific advice is welcomed.

JBarca wrote:

Your camper is empty I "think" right now, is this correct?

It has some stuff in it, most of what we would bring on a trip sans food and clothes, 49 Gal of water, and a couple of gallons in the grey/black tanks. I did pack some tools and chairs as well as the spare hitch head and trunnion bars and it added about 50 lbs to the tongue weight.

JBarca wrote:

The EX with family on broad is only going to handle a 1,200# TW and stay within the rear axle door sticker rating. As you load the camper you will need more head tilt to shift weight off the rear axle and some to the front EX axle and the TT axles.

Yes, I think we're going to be near the limit on axle ratings. We limited the trailer to under 10,000 GVWR in order to not overload the Excursion.

If I use the WD to get the front suspension back to "unloaded" weight then the tongue weight is really going to be distributed between the TT rear axle and the TT axles right? The WD is just ensuring that TV weight is not transferred to the rear axle.

JBarca wrote:

When you are nose high by a lot, and I consider 1" plus a lot, in some TT's this can cause instability in towing by the way the air current hit the top of the camper. When you are in the slight nose down position the air hits the of the camper different not causing negative handling characteristics.

Would this instability be some kind of up/down motion?

JBarca wrote:

As far as TW and nose high and nose low, it all depends on the center of gravity the way the camper is built. On my camper when fully loaded I raise the nose or drop it by 3" and only change the TW by 50#. Others have reported they dropped the tongue 1" can gain 100#. Others raised it 1" and gain the 100#. All campers are not built the same. So "it depends" on if "your" camper will gain or loose or nothing at all with nose low of high.

This makes sense. I'll have add checking mine to the homework list.

JBarca wrote:

In summary, my thoughts for all conditions are, go back to the 1" hi rise ball, 6 links under load, stick with the new cast head and shim, tilt the head as needed for WD, 1st load the camper and the truck like you are going camping. Then adjust the WD, (with the DC in place) to return the front end of the TV very close to unhitched weight/height. When done, get the correct drop shank to level out the camper for towing. While you can only be accurate within 1 shank hole, choosing between being 1/2" high to 1/2" low, pick low. Being 3/4" high to 1/4" low, pick low. Being 1/4" high to 3/4" low pick hi.

Interestingly enough, the new cast head did not require a shim. It was the old 3 piece head that did. I'll go back to the 1" ball and set it up at the highest setting with this shank in the "lower mode" and see where I end up. I'm a little gun shy on measuring the frame on the front and rear of trailer since I got such varied measurements with the same setup. I'll try a different lot next time too...

JBarca wrote:
Being 1 1/4" plus or greater lower starts raising the concerns front TT axle bearing more weight than it should be for the long haul.

This is interesting. Is this the case no matter what kind of axles you have? I would have figured that axles that have the equalizer between them would not suffer from that problem?

Also, if the axles are of the split type, would the problem be worse because the axle are further apart?

I realize that the stability issue would still hold independent of axle wear.

FYI, it may be next weekend before I get out to do some more measurements.

mrekim wrote:
I'm still nose up with the hitch shank flipped up and the shorter ball. I measured at different places in the parking lot and got between 5/8 and 1 5/8 from front to rear. These ranges were obtained by measuring at a few different locations in the parking lot. If I had to pick one location that seemed most optimal the reading was 1 3/16 nose up.

snip...

I'd like to better understand the purpose of perfectly level to nose down on the trailer. Is it all about tongue weight?


snip...

Also these measurements are over a distance of at least 25 feet. So, we have sin-1 (1.1875"/300") = .0006 degrees. If my math is right and we consider degrees vs inches then it seems pretty level.

Hi Mrekim,

I have been out camping and just saw your update. Since you are working hard at optimizing your setup, I'll point out one area you may have taken a step backwards on.

When Barney suggested this he may have not realized this and you may have forgot what learned working through this. Sorry I did not explain this more in the beginning.

Using the hi rise tow ball on a 6" A frame with the DC helps optimize 2 areas.

1. The ability to gain more clearance in the DC area so the WD bar does not interfere with the DC arm during compound angle turn.

2. The ability to lower the hitch head on the 6" A frame with the ball coupler on top to help avoid a crash of the trunnion bar lug into the frame during hard angle turn.

I suspect no 2 is going to not get you since you are back on the standard height ball. Since you are on the new 1 piece head, it may help but may not cure. Point: check it out.

See this pic of my older camper on a 5" A frame, ball coupler on top and the 3 piece Reese head. The trunnion lug will hit the frame as the head it higher up. Being on a 6" frame is even 1" worse



Now lets look at your pics in the start of this process. Note: you are on 7 links in this mock up and you hit the trunnion lug into the frame, but 3 piece head




Right now by the last set of pics you showed up you where on 6 links under tension. And this is good. But you were on the hi rise ball too. This setup is about perfect from the hitch head trunnion lug and DC perspective. However you have a nose high issue to deal with.


A heads up, odds are high going back to the standard ball, while you might have DC clearance on 6 links with the new all cast head, you may have sacrificed getting a trunnion lug hit on the frame in the advance stages of a turn on a compound angle. I would check to see it that is occurring. You helped the ball nut hit going to the new head, just you may have forgot about the cast lug hit on the standard ball.

Here is a thought that I would investigate. Go back to the 1" hi rise ball on the new head and run at 6 links under tension. This creates all the needed clearance both at the DC area and the trunnion lug and frame area. Now you need to deal with the high trailer nose problem.

I have found the standard Reese shank, the one you have, works well in several setups but it does not work well when you need a drop shank which is what you need to lower the trailer nose down. The standard shank does not have much drop. 1 1/4" from the top of the shank on a trunnion bar setup. And when you flip it up there is sort of a no mans land of adjustment in the exact middle area you are at.

Consider exchanging your present shank for a true 6" drop shank or 4 to 5" drop as declared by Reese. Note: this does not mean the shank is 6" long, it means it will drop a HP trunnion bar hitch head 6" from the standard "0" location. The shank itself is actually 12" long from the top on a 6" drop shank. According to the 2013 Reese catalog they do not offer a 4" drop. It is the standard shank at 1 1/4" which you have or a 5 3/4" drop. See D-19
http://www.reeseprod.com/content/downloads/catalogs/Cequent_2013_06_Weight_Distribution.pdf

Note: The drop is rated different for a round bar or trunnion bar head. You want trunnion bar head

This is the "ideal" Reese shank if you can still find it. There are plenty of fine adjustment holes to help get better resolution in dropping the TT nose down. There may be some still left in dealers stock, if not then you will have to use the newer ones.

Here is a true 6" drop shank next to the standard shank you have. Yes I have both...








Looking at your pics, I see what I think is the bumper and the rear swinging doors of an Excursion. Am I right? I have helped a few buddies with their Ex's and know some of their traits.

Look here when I had by K2500 Suburban on my present TT. 6" A frame, ball coupler on top, 3 piece trunnion bar head, pre 2010 redesign HP DC with hi rise tow ball. That is a 1,200# loaded camper tongue weight using 1,200# WD bars correcting a 130" Wheel base Burb back to unhitched front end ride height. The ball height on this camper was 24" at the time.

Ideally in this case I needed a 4" drop but I had the 6" drop already and was changing TV's soon so I used what I had. If I was to keep this set a long time, I may have cut the excess below the weld off if I had length issues.

Your camper is empty I "think" right now, is this correct? The EX with family on broad is only going to handle a 1,200# TW and stay within the rear axle door sticker rating. As you load the camper you will need more head tilt to shift weight off the rear axle and some to the front EX axle and the TT axles.

When they say level is best, and it is, the TT axles are loaded as equal as they can be. And the air currents hitting the top of the TT do not create other handling concerns.

When you are nose high by a lot, and I consider 1" plus a lot, in some TT's this can cause instability in towing by the way the air current hit the top of the camper. When you are in the slight nose down position the air hits the of the camper different not causing negative handling characteristics.

For the 1st time I have finally seen TV manufactures now recommending in their manuals that level is best and next is nose down. Many of us have know this a long time but now it is starting to come into print.

As far as TW and nose high and nose low, it all depends on the center of gravity the way the camper is built. On my camper when fully loaded I raise the nose or drop it by 3" and only change the TW by 50#. Others have reported they dropped the tongue 1" can gain 100#. Others raised it 1" and gain the 100#. All campers are not built the same. So "it depends" on if "your" camper will gain or loose or nothing at all with nose low of high.

In summary, my thoughts for all conditions are, go back to the 1" hi rise ball, 6 links under load, stick with the new cast head and shim, tilt the head as needed for WD, 1st load the camper and the truck like you are going camping. Then adjust the WD, (with the DC in place) to return the front end of the TV very close to unhitched weight/height. When done, get the correct drop shank to level out the camper for towing. While you can only be accurate within 1 shank hole, choosing between being 1/2" high to 1/2" low, pick low. Being 3/4" high to 1/4" low, pick low. Being 1/4" high to 3/4" low pick hi. Being 1 1/4" plus or greater lower starts raising the concerns front TT axle bearing more weight than it should be for the long haul.

Hope this helps

John

I'm still nose up with the hitch shank flipped up and the shorter ball. I measured at different places in the parking lot and got between 5/8 and 1 5/8 from front to rear. These ranges were obtained by measuring at a few different locations in the parking lot. If I had to pick one location that seemed most optimal the reading was 1 3/16 nose up.

I also tried to use a 2 foot level on the ground and found that a quarter and nickle were needed (on the front/car side of the level) to make it level and on the frame directly above the the same quarter and nickle were required.


I'd like to better understand the purpose of perfectly level to nose down on the trailer. Is it all about tongue weight?


The trailer yellow sticker weight is 7386(GVWR 9858). There's not much stuff in there yet, so if the yellow sticker can be trusted then we're still very close to that weight.


According to a Sherline scale my tongue weight is 925 (averaged 4 readings) with 49 gallons of fresh water. This is is my as tested weight. I drained the water and got an average tongue weight of 875 lbs. This small difference makes sense because the water drain is just in front of the axles.


That puts me at 925/(7386+400) = 11.9% for tongue weight.


Also these measurements are over a distance of at least 25 feet. So, we have sin-1 (1.1875"/300") = .0006 degrees. If my math is right and we consider degrees vs inches then it seems pretty level.


I'm still new at this so will defer to you experts whose help I greatly appreciate...

Best is to have the trailer level. But if that is not possible then slightly nose down is ok.

If it were me, I would go back to the regular ball and turn the shank back pointing upward. It sounds like that should give you a level trailer and still leave enough room for the bars to clear the frame.
From your picture it looks like you have more than enough withe the cast head.
Barney

I swapped heads. Now I can do sharper turns without binding on the ball shank.







I was surprised that I didn't need to adjust the cams when changing the head. As long as everything "pops in" when I snap up the chains I should be good right?

Here's what it looks like:



Also, I discovered that I was nose high by about 2". I opted to flip the hitch shank and ended up nose down about 1". I *might* be able to raise the head one hole which will get me "flat", but my understanding is that I should be a little more stable if the trailer is down slightly. Is that correct?