3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[professor95]

Old & Slow wrote:
After checking, the possible size for a fan it could be 5" wide and 10 and 1/5" high. I do believe a fan like you show, bobandcat, may not be available in a useable size, don't know for sure. Is it your thinking the heat from the genset can be brought down to a safe level, using a suck and exit fan as you show? There are thousands of folks who want to use the factory genset compartment and others like your self who want to construct their own design, to use to Chinese genset. But the kind folks here on this thread say "heat is a killer"

o&s

In your search for the "perfect fan" do not overlook all the different shapes, sizes and CFM that can be found in the automotive boneyards. Heater fans, electric radiator and transmission cooler fans, and air conditioning fans come in many different sizes and shapes. They are designed to move a lot of air! I have an old Toyota electric radiator fan neatly mounted inside one of my RV roof vents that will evacuate stale air from the camper in seconds. Total cost? How about $10 rather than $200?

In the marine world you will also find an assortment of fans, some sized to fit in flexible ducts, for venting fuel tanks and bilges. Check West Marine or Boater's World to see some of these.

Also consider as a possibility the common bathroom or kitchen vent fans that build into a wall or ceiling. They start with small 50 CFM units and go up to those with 300 CFM or more. These will be 120 VAC rather than 12 vdc like those in preceeding paragraphs.

I have also found an abundance of interesting fans on the "surplus market". Check the ads in Popular Mechanics, Popular Science and the like for military surplus vendors. I carry an Army surplus unit in the RV that came from a cooling unit for a radar waveguide. It is about the size of a small shoe box and will literally blow you off the floor if you stand in front of it. I picked up at a ham radio flea market for $5.00.

3" and 4" (muffin) fans abound in computer and surplus gear. They are available in both 12 VDC and 120 VAC. While one fan may be shy of providing the air you need, three stacked in a vertical arrangement and wired in parallel would possibly fit your opening. You can also increase air flow by using fans to push-pull, one blowing in while another pulls out.

There is no shortage of fans out there and many are dirt cheap or even free. Just broaden the scope of your search a little, you will find what you want in no time at all.

[Old___Slow]

After checking, the possible size for a fan it could be 5" wide and 10 and 1/4" high. I do believe a fan like you show, bobandcat, may not be available in a useable size, don't know for sure. Is it your thinking the heat from the genset can be brought down to a safe level, using a suck and exit fan as you show? There are thousands of folks who want to use the factory genset compartment and others like your self who want to construct their own design, to use a Chinese genset. But the kind folks here on this thread say "heat is a killer"

o&s

[Old___Slow]

professor95 wrote:

racefan1965 wrote:
2nd... The GFI cord that TKMJ mentions. Do they make one with the RV plugs and 30 amp capacity or is a adapter needed? Seems to me that a problem could arise if you have to step your power cord down to a 30-15 adapter and then run it through a 15 amp GFI cord and then try to run 20 amps through it. Especially on long runs of 50feet or so. Am I being realistic or am I out in left field?

Rick

Here is the promised photo of my 30 amp GFCI plugged into my geneset. It mates directly with the 30 amp TT outlet. The power cord from the camper plugs into the end of the GFCI. No adapters are needed.



These GFCI units cost about $100. You can find them at most any RV store including Camping World.

It is possible to use a 20 amp residential GFCI. But, by the time you purchase a waterproof box to put it in along with both a male and female TT connector and the associated #10 SJ cable, you will be close to $100 anyway. I'm not sure if the internals of the 20 AMP GFCI can handle 30 amps (I know the blade connections can't, but you would not be using them anyway.) Additionally, you would be 10 amps short in the GFCI design by trying to make your own from a residental device.

Bottom line.... buy the correct device.

The Champion genny is once again mounted on the rear carrier of our RV. Nancy jokingly says it looks like a Gipsy trailer from a carnival with the genny, storage box, lawn chairs, rear view camera, flag pole and satellite dish. The bicycles and gray water transfer tank aren't even attached in the photo.

The extra weight of the genset, carrier and other gear does not create a problem on our rig. It is heavily biased to the front. If anyone decides to put a genset on the back of their TT, be sure you retain enough tongue weight or you will end up with sway.

[IMG]http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b298/professor95/rear.jpg[/IMG

A Gipsy, no Doctor, your a Savior.

[Old___Slow]

bobandcat/mrwizard:

Wow, maybe I'm not dead in the water and left floating. I will admit you can call me "just a frustrated old man who doesn't want to give up using his beloved little yellow machine in his factory getset compartment." bobandcat I'm new here on this thread. I've come to love it so much. I just never dreamed I could find something so interesting as the folks here on this thread. Talk about the luck of the Irish.

Your on to something. The way my genset sits in the compartment I have a open space (looking at the front) of 3" with a opening in the tray bottom on the left side where the old Onan was installed. This space was used by the Onan's fan.I find the direction of the airflow from the Champ. to be in wrong direction to use this space to exit air from the genset. Wrong end. That is where I became frustrated and wanted to quite looking for a possible solution for cooling. Mrwizard put me on to finding the natural airflow direction. I could move the Champ more to the left but the factory tray has no opening on the right side. That's different than mrwizards slide out tray. He has better air flow. My thinking, with the use of your idea maybe the fan could be attached to the right sidewall, suck air in from the Champ and exit through a possible new opening in my compartment door. Your the man with the plan. The fan would need to be no more than 3" wide. Where will all this lead, perhaps to a good end?

o&s

[bobandcat]

content deleted

[MrWizard]

did you PM the rv.net member that installed the genny in his 5ver, and ask how this has works out for him, over the past year ?

you can click is name in in his post header and send him a message

[Old___Slow]

Mrwizard

Perhaps you are working on a answer for me concerning heat accumulation in the factory getset compartment. There seems to be no solution. I did more research and find you have covered the subjust time and again. I found your post of 3/11/07 and that about covers it all. Between you and oldfordman covering the subject, I guess it should end here. Thanks o&s

[professor95]

wpoling wrote:
wpoling wrote:

Has anybody looked at being able to parallel two C46540's together? I've found that with my new set-up I'm running out of power, 15,000 btu air conditioner, Xantrex Freedom 458 100amp Charger / 2000 watt Inverter, coffee maker, microwave, etc. Main problem is I can't run air when charger is in "bulk" charge mode.

You cannot do this with two C46540s. Yes, I know you can with the Honda 2000i. The method of generating power with the Honda Inverter is totally different. The inverter's internal electronics will sync the relationship of the two independent sine waves. Direct drive mechanical generators don't have this ability. Also, even with each C46540 maintaining 68 dBA, the increased sound pressure of two units would be much louder. The noise of two Honda 2000i units easily equals or surpasses the sound level of one C46540 (or other Chinese built equivalent).

What you could do is add another circuit to your RV to separate the loads (I have two 30 amp cords and circuits in my TT and plug into a 50 amp outlet using a power distribution box I built.) With two independent circuits, you could then run two generators - one for each circuit. But why? If you need that much power get the 13HP 6,500 watt unit and park a long, long way from other campers since the noise level of the larger genset will be 75dBA or more.

[professor95]

racefan1965 wrote:
2nd... The GFI cord that TKMJ mentions. Do they make one with the RV plugs and 30 amp capacity or is a adapter needed? Seems to me that a problem could arise if you have to step your power cord down to a 30-15 adapter and then run it through a 15 amp GFI cord and then try to run 20 amps through it. Especially on long runs of 50feet or so. Am I being realistic or am I out in left field?

Rick

Here is the promised photo of my 30 amp GFCI plugged into my geneset. It mates directly with the 30 amp TT outlet. The power cord from the camper plugs into the end of the GFCI. No adapters are needed.



These GFCI units cost about $100. You can find them at most any RV store including Camping World.

It is possible to use a 20 amp residential GFCI. But, by the time you purchase a waterproof box to put it in along with both a male and female TT connector and the associated #10 SJ cable, you will be close to $100 anyway. I'm not sure if the internals of the 20 AMP GFCI can handle 30 amps (I know the blade connections can't, but you would not be using them anyway.) Additionally, you would be 10 amps short in the GFCI design by trying to make your own from a residental device.

Bottom line.... buy the correct device.

The Champion genny is once again mounted on the rear carrier of our RV. Nancy jokingly says it looks like a Gipsy trailer from a carnival with the genny, storage box, lawn chairs, rear view camera, flag pole and satellite dish. The bicycles and gray water transfer tank aren't even attached in the photo.

The extra weight of the genset, carrier and other gear does not create a problem on our rig. It is heavily biased to the front. If anyone decides to put a genset on the back of their TT, be sure you retain enough tongue weight or you will end up with sway.

[wpoling]

RobBob wrote:

wpoling wrote:
Has anybody looked at being able to parallel two C46540's together? I've found that with my new set-up I'm running out of power, 15,000 btu air conditioner, Xantrex Freedom 458 100amp Charger / 2000 watt Inverter, coffee maker, microwave, etc. Main problem is I can't run air when charger is in "bulk" charge mode.

Hmm, 100A charge rate times 14 volts equals 1400 watts, and that assumes 100% efficiency in the charger. The real draw is more likely 1800+ watts!

Lucky for you the Xantrex 458 series has a feature called power sharing. To use it you will need to program your inverter with the size of the AC breaker you are plugging into. It will then cut back on the battery charging current to prevent tripping the AC source breaker.

Example:
If you tell it your AC supply breaker is 20A, when your A/C unit fires up and starts consuming 15A then the 458's battery charger will throttle its own output down so it only consumes no more than 5A to stay under the 20A limit.

Setting the input breaker size (power sharing) requires an optional Freedom remote that is available from your Xantrex dealer.

For all I know you may already be using this feature.

Also, you may find that you need to program the 458 for a smaller breaker size than you would expect. The reason for this is because the 458's charger is rather picky about having really clean solid power.

Hope this helps...

Rob

Rob,

Thanks for the calculations there, I was wondering exactly how much the Freedom was pulling, I know it would definitly make the gen. "grunt".

I knew I had read about the power sharing mode, but didn't exactly understand it. I have the Link 1000 remote and as a default setting, power share is set at 30 amps. I moved it down to 20 amps and will be testing it this weekend. I'm also looking at the possibility of mounting a Guardian 65G unit on the back of my fifth wheel.


Thanks,
Bill

[Old___Slow]

MrWizard:

You state: "This has all been taken up before" being new, some questions I ask, are covered in this thread I find later. WE need a search engine for this thread, it has so so much info' on most subjects in power generation. I have so many remaining unanswered questions, I feel stupid to ask. I now find some one I can understand and click his profile and his posts for some possible answers. Of course I trust your answers for sure. I do find other posters, if that is a good word, who have good thoughts. My problem of the day is........a way to solve the problem of genset heat accumulation ( Champion) in the enclosed factory compartment of my Itaska MH. For real. If this is at all possible.

[SonicLogic]

Grumpy4Ya wrote:
Howdy All,
I'm new to this forum and this is my first post, so please pardon my beginner errors. I've already read quite a few pages of this thread and the wealth of knowledge and civility of all the posters is terrific. I feel like I'm whipping a dead horse here, but I wanted to check with you all before I dove in with my 2nd gen purchases. I bought a Coleman Powermate, 4000 peak watts 3250 running 240v @ 40a, and 2 duplex at 110 @20a, a while back thinking I could power the AC in my 23' 90 Fleetwood 5er. The AC is one of two models and either puts out 11,000 or 13,500 btu's (is btu correct for cooling?) and its on a 30 service in the RV. Any how, when I looked at the specs for the AC, it showed the most draw as 13.2 amps, soooo, I thought the unit could handle it. And it did, under the right circumstances (nice cool days, for a limited test time). However, when the outside temps get hot my amp meter shows a creeping draw up to 20a +. and I'm popping breakers faster that popcorn. The service manager at my local RV place said that when the ambient temp is high it is not uncommon for AC units to creep up, therefore the 30a service. I'm looking to upgrade to the Champion C46540 RV ready with the 30a breaker. I was looking for some sage advice as if you all thought this should resolve my AC dilemma. I would really appriciate any help you all could give.

First of all, it would help if you could give us the model number for your generator. Coleman makes a whole bunch of different 3250 watt generators. Some have 6 HP engines while others have 6.5 or 7 HP engines. The receptacles also vary from model to model. So, a model number would help.

If it’s the generator sold by Home Depot then it most likely has a 6 HP Briggs & Stratton engine with two 120v, 20 amp duplex receptacles and one 120/240v, 20 amp twistlock receptacle. It will also have two push button circuit breakers. If you look on the head of the generator, you’ll see a small metal plate (this is the brush cover) with specifications. It will tell you that the generator produces 27 amps @ 120v and 13.5 amps @240v.

The problem for you is that you can’t get 27 amps @ 120v because the duplex outlets are both split so that only 13.5 amps is available at any single outlet. Also if you use two or more outlets, you can not exceed 27 amps because that is the maximum that the generator can produce.

You either need to rewire one or both of the duplex outlets to get the full 27 amps or you need one of those funky pigtails that the RV guys use. I am not an RV person so I’m not up to speed on what is available. If you look back in this thread the professor and Mr. Wizard have both provided the instructions to perform the rewire job and/or make the pigtail.

Anyway, by either rewiring the duplex or by using a pigtail you’ll be able to power your A/C unit and have power to spare for other devices.

[MrWizard]

wpoling wrote:

Has anybody looked at being able to parallel two C46540's together? I've found that with my new set-up I'm running out of power, 15,000 btu air conditioner, Xantrex Freedom 458 100amp Charger / 2000 watt Inverter, coffee maker, microwave, etc. Main problem is I can't run air when charger is in "bulk" charge mode.

the short answer is NO, it is not FEASIBLE for small portable gensets

technically if you have the brute force and power management/load balancing controls available to a power station or the controls in a submarine OR other portable power station ( and the technical knowledge/training ), then it would be possible.

this has all been talked about before

so all you retired power station & submariners, do NOT jump in here and start telling him he can do it,

whats technical , and whats safe & feasible and practical are different things HERE

[Old___Slow]

Mother earth "we have a problem", we are riding in a RV and not making contact.

[RobBob]

wpoling wrote:
Has anybody looked at being able to parallel two C46540's together? I've found that with my new set-up I'm running out of power, 15,000 btu air conditioner, Xantrex Freedom 458 100amp Charger / 2000 watt Inverter, coffee maker, microwave, etc. Main problem is I can't run air when charger is in "bulk" charge mode.

Hmm, 100A charge rate times 14 volts equals 1400 watts, and that assumes 100% efficiency in the charger. The real draw is more likely 1800+ watts!

Lucky for you the Xantrex 458 series has a feature called power sharing. To use it you will need to program your inverter with the size of the AC breaker you are plugging into. It will then cut back on the battery charging current to prevent tripping the AC source breaker.

Example:
If you tell it your AC supply breaker is 20A, when your A/C unit fires up and starts consuming 15A then the 458's battery charger will throttle its own output down so it only consumes no more than 5A to stay under the 20A limit.

Setting the input breaker size (power sharing) requires an optional Freedom remote that is available from your Xantrex dealer.

For all I know you may already be using this feature.

Also, you may find that you need to program the 458 for a smaller breaker size than you would expect. The reason for this is because the 458's charger is rather picky about having really clean solid power.

Hope this helps...

Rob