3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[Old___Slow]

MuleyQuest wrote:
Thanks for the info and tips on using the gen with a 15,000 btu a/c. I think will pick one of the Champions up and give it a try. Checker auto has them in stock only 1 block away from the house for $299. Seams like a deal to me! I haven,t even used my 5er yet and my wallet is already hurting.

From experience I can say the Champion C46540 is a wise choice. It will power my 13,500 A/C plus the built- in Converter/batt chg and my all electric refer (12a) all at the same time and after the A/C is set on Hi-cool so it will not cycle, the Micro can be used.

Note: Checker Auto/partsamerica are one and the same. I their website they show a 10% discount or free shipping, I do believe you can come up with the 10% discount, yes, go for it.

[professor95]

Old & Slow wrote:
Professor95:

To revisit the subject of your gensets converted to LPG. Everyone one on this thread knows by now the old man will challenge the young Professor, at times. I have tried to do a Wgeorge 5 minute thing (he might give it to us again) and stay silent on the LPG subject. I tend to get lost in the woods, at times, with your explanations. At my age there is some loss of BP. Anyway, after rereading on this subject from the US Carb website, I will give you the benefit of my doubt that there is no noticeable different in Power Out Put Gas vs LPG. That being said, maybe I can move forward toward considering your LPG retro-fitted 40008. Removing the fuel tank is necessary for a enclosure like the last one you posted. Either a remote fuel tank or LPG is the issue at hand. Just one question. Do you find close to the same power output in using the various items in the TT with the 40008? Maybe you have a meter that could give us the total amps available? What put me back on this idea is a statement on US Carb "Does not give off noxious fumes" Less CO also?

Floyd
O&S

Floyd,
At some time in the past, I became acquainted with the phrase, "The proof is in the pudding". When questioned by doubting Thomas' as to the results of a project or experiment I may describe, I often quote the old puddin' phrase as a response.

The thing runs the whole house (RV) as well as it did when using gasoline as fuel. The puddin' is very good. That's all I need to know.

As for a RF remote control, I see no future in reinventing the wheel. The one US Carb sells has all the needed features and costs less than the sum of the individual parts I would need to build one. But, I don't have one because I have no need for a RF remote. A hard wired secondary control to the inside of the camper provides all the control I want or need for the genset.

But, you might be interested to know I can empty all three of my holding tanks with my added macerator pump which I can turn on or off using the RF remote (blue) for my Dish Network 522 DVR receiver without leaving the comfort of my Lazy Boy recliner.

[Old___Slow]

A comment to Bill......The first post noticed of a genset box was from our Prof95, that give me the idea, some possible help to lower the NOISE is possible. Yes my new shop (genhouse) is full of cast off boxes, rolls of sound abatement material, etc. Many problems exist in box building. Radiant heat is number one. Finding the proper placement for a fan is a head :h The type and size are in the mix. Then comes more research in available material for sound abatement. Some products found in the search, you just can't locate.
At this time a simi finished box is in the shop for a Stock Portable.
Next on the list is a model like Prof95 only by using a cut down stock frame. LPG or Gasoline?


Professor95:

To revisit the subject of your gensets converted to LPG. Everyone one on this thread knows by now the old man will challenge the young Professor, at times. I have tried to do a Wgeorge 5 minute thing (he might give it to us again) and stay silent on the LPG subject. I tend to get lost in the woods, at times, with your explanations. At my age there is some loss of BP. Anyway, after rereading on this subject from the US Carb website, I will give you the benefit of my doubt that there is no noticeable different in Power Out Put Gas vs LPG. That being said, maybe I can move forward toward considering your LPG retro-fitted 40008. Removing the fuel tank is necessary for a enclosure like the last one you posted. Either a remote fuel tank, LPG or a possible new lower pressure fuel(gas) system that is in the mix, is the issue at hand. Just one question. Do you find close to the same power output in using the various items in the TT with the 40008 LPG converison after trial in the past weeks? Maybe you have a meter that could give us the total amps available? What put me back on this idea of LPG is a statement on US Carb "Does not give off noxious fumes" Less CO also :@

Floyd
O&S

[MuleyQuest]

Thanks for the info and tips on using the gen with a 15,000 btu a/c. I think will pick one of the Champions up and give it a try. Checker auto has them in stock only 1 block away from the house for $299. Seams like a deal to me! I haven,t even used my 5er yet and my wallet is already hurting.

[billmx43]

Floyd,
I have read almost all of this thread and you certainly are a pioneer in genset box building! There are only a handful of people working on this and you are one of them. Your comments are appreciated and most welcome!

I fully agree with your comments on the links contributed. When I go to that Burden Sales Surplus Center site I feel like the proverbial "kid in a candy store" and I believe the professor has hit the nail on the head with his suggestion for a remote choke solinoid...both cheap and effective, and no crawling aroung a junkyard to get one! And Little Bill's suggestion for an inexpensive remote looks great too!

The only problem I'm having with this thread is I'm reading information faster than my brain can store it!

Bill

[Old___Slow]

Bill:

Hope I don't leave the impression Old & Slow is a pioneer in Genset box building, however, several different styles and types have been constructed. You leave the notion much though has been given to this subject. One box I used 1/2" MDF for the basic material. Inside several types of sound suppression material was tried. One, Sound and Heat insulation from Pepboys. That style was scraped.

When I purchased the DP3500EC it came with 6 2" Styrofoam sheets covering the entire genset from the factory. The thought came to mind, just apply 1/4" hardboard available at HD in 2' x 4' panels. Being on the cheap, this idea has worked vary well. this info' is not in anyway suggesting my idea is the greatest. You have come up with a pretty good plan of your own. What makes this thread so interesting, IMO, is the fact we all share what we have experienced or share a theory. Each person coming along behind us hopefully will profit from our trial and ERRORS and as Wgeorge says, a few smoking wires. What has been most helpful to me are the folks who leave a link to more info' or product availability. Professor95 gave the link to the Trunk Lid Solenoid, the answer for the need of this item that is basic to the Electro-Choke. Can't have Remote Control without this little (Prof95) bugger.

Bill, we will wait for your future contribution for what I will call "The Best and most silent 3000W Genset to date". Professor95 your last creation only lacks remote control. I'm thinking to my self, yeh, he has that in his bag somewhere. I'll wait for that Post.:B

Floyd
O&S

[billmx43]

professor95 wrote:
All the stuff you are proposing is great if that is what you want to do. But, IMHO, it is somewhat extreme. Just following the rules for use of the genset and manually managing loads is more than enough. The gensets are tough little buggers and will stand a lot of abuse before they give up the ghost and die of heat stroke.

Okay....maybe now I can sleep!:Z

[professor95]

MuleyQuest wrote:
I am new to this forum and am very impressed with all the helpfull people. I apoligize if my question has been answered prior or if it seams obvious. I have read this post for a few hours now and have learned so much. All the time I was reading this stuff, I thought my newly purchased 5th wheel had a 13500 btu a/c. I crawled up on the roof and discovered it is a 15000 btu unit. Is the champion model C46540 large enough to run my a/c. I understand that I will not be able to run the microwave at the same time. This is my first RV and has been a little overwhelming with all the new things I am trying to learn. Thanks in advance for your help.

No apology needed. Thread is too long to find all the back info.

I have a 15,000 BTU A/C as well, 2005 Coleman Mach. My Champ hardly misses a beat when the A/C compressor kicks in. I can also run the microwave after the compressor has started. But, load is really high and genset temps will rise rapidly. If A/C compressor cuts out while micro is on and then tries to restart, a breaker on the genset will trip. I always switch the fridge to gas (off auto) when using the genset. This gives me a few reserve amps to play with since the electric heating element in the fridge is not active.

[professor95]

billmx43 wrote:
Professor,
Although my understanding of electrical exceeds my understanding of electronics I think I actually understand the concept you laid out for the overvoltage protection. I'm interested, however, in why you feel it is unnecessary since someone stated they did have this problem (avr failure causing overvoltage) and it fried their television. You seem like the kind of guy who would use a home brewed solution such as you proposed if you felt there was any need at all for it. So I have to assume you don't feel it's necessary but I'm not sure why?

Regarding the magnetic contactor: Personally I don't have an issue with the manual resetting. If I were to locate the switch at the generator it would, of course, defeat the purpose of adding the remote start. My plan, however, would be to put it in a cabinet inside the trailer. The power feed to it would be a cord that went to the 30 amp outlet on the generator. The output from the switch would go to another 30 amp outlet, probably mounted in a storage bay on the trailer. The actual power cord from the trailer would plug into this outlet. The procedure would be to start the genny from inside the trailer using the wireless remote. Once it had come up to power I would engage the magnetic starter switch.

My question is more along the lines of would this type of setup actually protect the generator from the damage that is caused by the generator shutting off with a load on it? Since I'm not sure at what point the damage (or potential damage) occurs I can't be sure if the magnetic switch would release early enough to prevent the damage. Does that make sense? Your proposed solution seemingly functions identically to mine on the shutdown side, differing only in the automatic vs. manual engagement, so I'm thinking you believe it would offer appropriate protection. Would you confirm that?

The majority of AVR failures result in no or low voltage, not overvoltage. I believe the one described to be aq rare occurance.

Shutting down under heavy load will cause a moderate upward current spike as voltage drops. This is so brief that no damage should occur to the genset. Starting under heavy load can be a problem since the little 6.5 HP 200 CC engine just isn't up to a loaded start. Also, loads should be added sequentually - not all at once. Second issue is throwing the voltage selector switch under load. Arc will quickly burn the switch up. You can easily start the genset with a light load attached, especially if it is resistive like your fridge. Inductive (motors) are tough on a cold start. If your A/C is off, you should have no trouble with a loaded start. If the A/C compresor kicks in as the genset starts and voltage rises, you will most likely trip the genset breaker before damage occurs. But that protection feature is a pain since you have to go out and reset the breaker.

All the stuff you are proposing is great if that is what you want to do. But, IMHO, it is somewhat extreme. Just following the rules for use of the genset and manually managing loads is more than enough. The gensets are tough little buggers and will stand a lot of abuse before they give up the ghost and die of heat stroke.

[billmx43]

MuleyQuest wrote:
I am new to this forum and am very impressed with all the helpfull people. I apoligize if my question has been answered prior or if it seams obvious. I have read this post for a few hours now and have learned so much. All the time I was reading this stuff, I thought my newly purchased 5th wheel had a 13500 btu a/c. I crawled up on the roof and discovered it is a 15000 btu unit. Is the champion model C46540 large enough to run my a/c. I understand that I will not be able to run the microwave at the same time. This is my first RV and has been a little overwhelming with all the new things I am trying to learn. Thanks in advance for your help.

I believe there are a few people running 15000 btu units with the Champion. The starting of the compressor is the issue and it seems, generally speaking, that newer a/c units start easier so you've got that going for you.

[billmx43]

Professor,
Although my understanding of electrical exceeds my understanding of electronics I think I actually understand the concept you laid out for the overvoltage protection. I'm interested, however, in why you feel it is unnecessary since someone stated they did have this problem (avr failure causing overvoltage) and it fried their television. You seem like the kind of guy who would use a home brewed solution such as you proposed if you felt there was any need at all for it. So I have to assume you don't feel it's necessary but I'm not sure why?

Regarding the magnetic contactor: Personally I don't have an issue with the manual resetting. If I were to locate the switch at the generator it would, of course, defeat the purpose of adding the remote start. My plan, however, would be to put it in a cabinet inside the trailer. The power feed to it would be a cord that went to the 30 amp outlet on the generator. The output from the switch would go to another 30 amp outlet, probably mounted in a storage bay on the trailer. The actual power cord from the trailer would plug into this outlet. The procedure would be to start the genny from inside the trailer using the wireless remote. Once it had come up to power I would engage the magnetic starter switch.

My question is more along the lines of would this type of setup actually protect the generator from the damage that is caused by the generator shutting off with a load on it? Since I'm not sure at what point the damage (or potential damage) occurs I can't be sure if the magnetic switch would release early enough to prevent the damage. Does that make sense? Your proposed solution seemingly functions identically to mine on the shutdown side, differing only in the automatic vs. manual engagement, so I'm thinking you believe it would offer appropriate protection. Would you confirm that?

And.....I haven't slept since I started reading this thread, why should tonight be any different?:S

Thanks,
Bill

[MuleyQuest]

I am new to this forum and am very impressed with all the helpfull people. I apoligize if my question has been answered prior or if it seams obvious. I have read this post for a few hours now and have learned so much. All the time I was reading this stuff, I thought my newly purchased 5th wheel had a 13500 btu a/c. I crawled up on the roof and discovered it is a 15000 btu unit. Is the champion model C46540 large enough to run my a/c. I understand that I will not be able to run the microwave at the same time. This is my first RV and has been a little overwhelming with all the new things I am trying to learn. Thanks in advance for your help.

[professor95]

billmx43 wrote:
Professor, any input on possible backup voltage protection for the system or the use of a magnetic contactor motor switch for generator protection? Re: magnetic contactor...I can see how this would work great on startup...make sure generator is up and running smoothly then engage switch. If there is no power (generator not running) then the switch will not engage so it pretty much impossible to start accidently start the generator with a load. What I'm not sure about is the shut down protection part of it. If the generator shuts off for any reason at some point the loss of power would cause the switch to break contact and remove the load. But at what point does shutting down the generator with a load on it cause a problem and would the switch disconnect the load BEFORE damage was done?

You've got it right. A magnetic contactor probably will not work like you want as most all require a manual reset once power is restored after a shut down. Try GOOGLEing the surplus electronics market to come up with a relay with a 120 VAC coil and contacts rated for at least 30 amps of inductive load (or 60 amps resistive). Let the genset output key and hold the relay and the contacts act as a simple SPST switch for the supply to the RV. The relay will not key unless there is output from the genset and will fall out when the genset stops. I used an almost identical circuit on my compartment to control the 12 VDC fans, but I only needed few amps on the contacts. If you want a delay on the relay pull in, we will need to use a slightly more complex circuit.

Hope you sleep tonight......;)

[professor95]

billmx43 wrote:
1: the overvoltage situation that some have experienced when the AVR fails. Now I understand this is a rare thing but isn't there a reasonably cost effective way to have a backup voltage regulator, or overvoltage shut down, put into the power system as insurance? With all of the electronics discussions that have occured in this thread I have to believe one of you guys has a down and dirty (Cheap!) solution to protect all of the onboard electronic equipment

Yes, there is a cheap, simple and dirty solution. I pondered on making such a circuit, but decided it was not really that necessary. If you are determined to do it, the parts needed are a small 110 AC to DC step down transformer and a general purpose NPN transistor (2N2222 would work for a low current micro or reed relay coil). Scrounge a small brute force DC adapter such as common on cordless phones or a thousand other pieces of low voltage equipment. No load DC output voltages between 3.6 and 7.5 volts would be ideal.

The whole idea is to plug the transformer into the genset AC outlet and take the low voltage DC output of this transformer, design the appropriate voltage divider (design depends on voltage) and feed the base of the NPN general purpose transistor. The voltage divider design will place a DC signal of "around" +.5 volts (or less) on the base and the supply voltage on the collector. A small low current coil (5VDC or 12VDC) relay will be placed between the emitter and ground (Radio Shack).

If AC out on the genset should rise so will the DC voltage out of the adapter and the voltage to the base of the transistor. When the voltage on the base of the transistor hits +.7 VDC or higher, the transistor conducts and supply voltage flows from the collector to emitter. This keys the relay which grounds the line going to the low oil shutdown switch.

For a resourceful person who can come up with a cast-off working adapter the total cost should not exceed $10, even with all new parts from Telephone.... er, Radio Shack.

Find the transformer, measure the no load DC out voltage at the desired genset out voltage and I can give you a schematic and the value of the resistors.

Needless to say, there are many, many more ways to make such a circuit using different devices. This one just happens to be simple, cheap and effective.

[billmx43]

professor95 wrote:

I suggest you give your idea a go. You might want to consider using fiberglass drop-in ceiling panels or, if you can find it, duct board.

I like the fiberglass drop-in panel idea! In reading this topic one can't help but be impressed by your wide ranging knowledge (and willingness to share it!). Do you think having a more sound absorbing inner face would ultimately make a difference in the sound that comes out of the box?

Floyd, thanks for the updated info on your purchases. I'm going to go with the trunk release solenoid. If you can hang in there a couple of weeks until I receive my parts I'll fabricate a mounting bracket for you!

Professor, any input on possible backup voltage protection for the system or the use of a magnetic contactor motor switch for generator protection? Re: magnetic contactor...I can see how this would work great on startup...make sure generator is up and running smoothly then engage switch. If there is no power (generator not running) then the switch will not engage so it pretty much impossible to start accidently start the generator with a load. What I'm not sure about is the shut down protection part of it. If the generator shuts off for any reason at some point the loss of power would cause the switch to break contact and remove the load. But at what point does shutting down the generator with a load on it cause a problem and would the switch disconnect the load BEFORE damage was done?:h