cancel
Showing results forย 
Search instead forย 
Did you mean:ย 

3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

professor95
Explorer
Explorer
professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy


For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at โ€œcloningโ€ reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a โ€œrunningโ€ display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. โ€œSupposedlyโ€ Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for โ€œabove average qualityโ€ Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an โ€œavailability listingโ€.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings โ€“ most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is โ€œreasonablyโ€ quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a โ€œlook alikeโ€ eng...






















Professor Randy T. Agee & Nancy Agee. Also Oscar, the totally ruined Dachshund.
2009 Cedar Creek 5th Wheel - 2004 Volvo VNL670 class 8 MotorHome conversion as toter.
Turbocharged, 12L, 465 HP and 1,800 ft. Lbs. of torque.
10,029 REPLIES 10,029

professor95
Explorer
Explorer
toprudder wrote:
In fact, if done correctly, the cooling effect will be more efficient. The Onan in my MH will actually overheat if the door is left removed, since it depends on the ducted airflow being forced through the interior to cool everything.


Let's expand on Bob's observation about the open door on the Onan compartment:

By analogy; on most Personal Computers, air is drawn in the lower front, up over the disk drives and exhausted out the upper fan. We all know it is inadvisable to leave a PC case open because overheating will occur. Why? Air flow is disrupted and no longer follows the prescribed path for cooling.

Last week the temps in our area were "comfortable", thus I did NOT turn on the three large outside A/C units. Rather, I elected to turn on the large attic/ceiling exhaust fan at the top of the stairs. Nancy and I were sitting in the family room watching TV. The door to the screen porch behind us was open. We were both uncomfortably warm. So, I crossed the room - opened a window on the other side and closed the door to the porch. The result? Well, air began to circulate in a new path which did a much better job of cooling us. Of course, with temps at 100 or above this week, we are back to the A/C units.

There are several factors in designing an enclosure that must be considered if success is to be achieved. Obviously, one is the path of that air flow. On the Chinese gennys there are two major air flow streams. The first is into the engine shroud where the fan moves air up and across the cylinder head. There are two plates fastened to the cylinder fins to further direct this air. If these plates were not there, the engine would overheat. Removing or altering the plates will have negative impact on cooling.

On the generator end, there louvers in the cap at the very end. Inside is a fan (end close to the engine - not the cap) that pulls air into the generator and exhausts it at the bottom of the engine end. This air flow is critical to cooling the AVR and wiring inside the generator.

There are several things you DO NOT want to do in using an enclosure. One is, as Bob noted, recirculating heated air. Heated air needs to exit quickly and be immediately displaced with cooler air in the original flow pattern. The enclosure I described using ยฝโ€ thick Hardi-Baker Concrete panels with a 2" opening around the lower perimeter will allow this. The natural air flow pattern of the engine moves heated air DOWN toward the crankshaft end.

If the bottom is not left open, further sound reduction may be achieved. But, air flow is disrupted. This is where a booster fan becomes valuable. The fan should be placed either on the bottom of the enclosure, directly under the out-take from the generator head or directly behind the out-take on the back of the generator.

The end of the generator (not the engine) where fresh air enters must be OUTSIDE the enclosure. The big, round yellow object in the photo is the generator end cap.


The air intake for the engine shroud must not be compromised - meaning NO space should be left between the grill in the shroud and the outside grill. In the photo below a 6" to 8" ducting adapter was used to funnel outside air into the intake grill of the engine shroud. If I had left this space open, a considerable amount of inside heated air would have been recirculated.


The opening to bring air into the box must be at a minimum at least the same area as the grill on the engine shroud. Don't forget that adding a mesh grill to the opening will reduce air flow.


An aux cooling fan should NOT be placed in front of the engine shroud so as to blow air in. Rather, the fan should be an exhaust fan to PULL air out of the compartment. This (exhausting air)is critical to establishing an efficient air flow pattern.

Selection of the fan is also critical. Conventional bladed fans are designed for free air movement. The pitch on their blades is low and the blades are extremely wide. When these fans are introduced ino an environment where some static pressure is present, they cavitate and air flow is drastically reduced. Stay away from this type of fan โ€“ it will not work!

In selecting a fan, think about the design for a boat propeller or the prop on an airplane. They are designed to grab and move as much air (water) as possible for the power of the motor. Some slip will always be there, but these blades are designed to minimize slip and really grab the air. Therefore, you want to look for something that has multiple high pitch, narrow blades. The fan only needs to be capable of something close to 250 CFM (with a negative static pressure in the exhaust mode). Some fans that work very well for this purpose are โ€œmuffinโ€ fans (110 VAC) that were removed from surplus electronic equipment. These fans can be combined for needed air flow. For example, two surplus 6โ€ muffin fans found at Northern Tool placed side by side easily provided 250 CFM together with a low noise level and less than 200 watts of power taken away from the genny. I used an 8โ€ 110VAC 300 CFM fan from surplus that met these specs on my enclosure. Fans that move more than 250 CFM of air can actually be counter productive and disrupt the design cooling paths. Larger fans will also waste power you want to use from the generator.




Alternately, squirell cage fans as used in "blower" applications might also be considered. They can move a significant amount of air with little slippage.


Additional air flow into the generator end will not hurt. This added air flow benefits the overall cooling and evacuation of hot air. A muffin fan (from an old computer) will fit inside an extension tube if you cut or sand the corners off the fan. In this location a duct booster fan also will work well. Be sure this fan blows INTO the opening and DOES NOT suck air out.



It is not rocket science โ€“ but there is a science to doing it so that air flow is not compromised. Donโ€™t just buy a big fan and hope for the best. Consider the negative pressure that can occur in the box, possible cavitation of the fan blades and respective air flow.

Of course, you realize that you MUST remove or totally isolate the muffler from the enclosure for it to be effective. It is also a good idea to have the fuel tank outside the enclosure so that the possibility of spillage on hot components is minimized.

I also advise using a small, inexpensive dial thermometer to check on inside temps. Anything over 180 degrees in the exhaust air stream should be cause for reducing load or shutting down the genny.



For those planning on building their own box this summer, I hope this information helps.
Professor Randy T. Agee & Nancy Agee. Also Oscar, the totally ruined Dachshund.
2009 Cedar Creek 5th Wheel - 2004 Volvo VNL670 class 8 MotorHome conversion as toter.
Turbocharged, 12L, 465 HP and 1,800 ft. Lbs. of torque.

Old___Slow
Explorer
Explorer
MrWiz,

Thanks~

Floyd

MrWizard
Moderator
Moderator
this BS from floyd is why i put him on my block list...

floyd..I know you have cancer, and being here is a distraction for you

but MY MOTHER died of cancer at the young age of 45 when I was 24, and she was never as obnoxious and cantakerous as you..she never got to see her grand children grow up and enjoy their company or go camping with US, at least you have had a full life.

take your******comments some place else. we've (at least me) have had enough

you pull statements and twist them, take them out of context, or just had some BS you think is funny, I don't think you even know what real HUMOR is .

is this how you've spent your life ? twisting around the things people say ?
I can explain it to you.
But I Can Not understand it for you !

....

Connected using T-Mobile Home internet and Visible Phone service
1997 F53 Bounder 36s

professor95
Explorer
Explorer
Old & Slow wrote:
Where is de' Prof, Maybe writing another tall story about that "Flux Capacitor" home brew by de' Wiz... Maybe he is on a around de' world ride on that new Nuke Powered Champ.?


Go here and click on BLOG. Leaving a comment by clicking on Contact is also permissible.
Professor Randy T. Agee & Nancy Agee. Also Oscar, the totally ruined Dachshund.
2009 Cedar Creek 5th Wheel - 2004 Volvo VNL670 class 8 MotorHome conversion as toter.
Turbocharged, 12L, 465 HP and 1,800 ft. Lbs. of torque.

professor95
Explorer
Explorer
Old & Slow wrote:
Professor95

Well finally you admit Champion is correct in the Owners Manual. No modifications. It's like the Constitution of the United State of America.


No. I admit no such thing. My enclosure project was 100% successful and continues to be so in near 100 degree heat. It was properly engineered after considerable research and calculations. Bob's statement on proper design for air flow was right on the money. Champion's statement pertains to people who just want to put the genny in a box and perhaps bolt on a fan and hope thru brute force some sort of cooling and sound abatement occurs.

Please don't twist any more of my statements into something totally alien.
Professor Randy T. Agee & Nancy Agee. Also Oscar, the totally ruined Dachshund.
2009 Cedar Creek 5th Wheel - 2004 Volvo VNL670 class 8 MotorHome conversion as toter.
Turbocharged, 12L, 465 HP and 1,800 ft. Lbs. of torque.

Old___Slow
Explorer
Explorer
Professor95

Well finally you admit Champion is correct in the Owners Manual. No modifications. It's like the Constitution of the United State of America.

professor95
Explorer
Explorer
luv2travelnow wrote:
hi all im new to this topic so dont get mad at me i own one of these champion genny great buy and i have had mine certified for the campground were i camp 65db at 18 feet my ?? is how did you quiet your unit down other than ideling it down thank you in advance

Dan


Welcome to the forum, Dan.

Wow - your question has been discussed for a couple of years on this forum. The conclusions have ranged from extremely simple to complex. Way, way too much to repeat. I suggest you go back to at least October 2007 and start reading forward. You will find a number of contributions, including my own, related to the topic.
Professor Randy T. Agee & Nancy Agee. Also Oscar, the totally ruined Dachshund.
2009 Cedar Creek 5th Wheel - 2004 Volvo VNL670 class 8 MotorHome conversion as toter.
Turbocharged, 12L, 465 HP and 1,800 ft. Lbs. of torque.

professor95
Explorer
Explorer
Old & Slow wrote:
Sounds like a bad idea. Need pictures and testing temps with 90/100% ambient. 62 dBA? Owner's manual states 3' (feet) of space needed around the genset. Too much radient heat.


I believe Bob (toprudder) expressed my sentiments on this topic very well in his recent comments. I have no desire to resurrect this discussion once again.
Professor Randy T. Agee & Nancy Agee. Also Oscar, the totally ruined Dachshund.
2009 Cedar Creek 5th Wheel - 2004 Volvo VNL670 class 8 MotorHome conversion as toter.
Turbocharged, 12L, 465 HP and 1,800 ft. Lbs. of torque.

professor95
Explorer
Explorer
Dickson Sr. wrote:
Actually, the former. I need a box to ship my generator. I've checked the yellow pages and on line. After contacting the $500 shipper. I went on line and checked how much Fedex charges to ship a box with my dimensions and weight, $108. So the box costs $392. Any ideas?


,,,,, not sure where or why you are shipping, but actually that info is insignificant since what you want is a container - period.

The big "if" to giving you assistance is "if" you have the capability to transport a sheet of OSB from either Home Depot or Lowe's to your home and "if" you can cut it into specific sizes.

"If" not, you can purchase 2'x 2', 2'x 4' pre-cut panels at Home Depot. Both Home Depot and Lowe's will cut panels to specified sizes for you upon request. I believe you get two cuts free and pay an additional charge for more than two.

The frame on the genny is very stout and offers a great deal of protection as is. Still, most shippers want such an object crated. If I were shipping mine I would purchase a single sheet of OSB from Lowe's for $4.35, slide it in the back of the truck and haul it home. I would measure the genny frame, which totally encloses the inners, and cut 6 panels to completely cover the frame. Use Elmer's wood glue and some 4d nails to tack the joints together (it is only 1/2" thick and doesn't hold nails well) and let the glue dry. Lastly, get a big roll of duct tape and start wrapping top to bottom and side to side to strap everything together. Sounds crude, but structurally it isn't going to come apart.

Additionally, consider completely removing oil from the engine and, of course, the fuel tank. Once the fuel tank is empty, unscrew the petcock from the tank so engine movement would not cause it to be hit and broken.

If you spend more than $20, you have spent too much.

You may also find a lower shipping rate if you take the genny to the shipper vs. pick-up. UPS ground will also ship up to 150# (used to be 70#) so check them out as well.

Another option would to be check Tractor Supply or Lowe's to see if they would or might keep an empty Champion box for you. They often pull the generators out of the boxes and set the open frame units on the floor for display.

I wish I had saved my shipping box. If I still had it, I would be glad to UPS the empty carton to CT for your use.
Professor Randy T. Agee & Nancy Agee. Also Oscar, the totally ruined Dachshund.
2009 Cedar Creek 5th Wheel - 2004 Volvo VNL670 class 8 MotorHome conversion as toter.
Turbocharged, 12L, 465 HP and 1,800 ft. Lbs. of torque.

toprudder
Explorer
Explorer
Old & Slow wrote:
What do you think, Bob?
Floyd


Floyd,

I suggest you follow the manufacturer's instructions to the letter.

Bob R.
Bob, Martha, and Matt.
Tucker, the Toy Poodle
'09 K-Z MXT20, '07 Chevy 2500HD Duramax

Toprudder.com

Old___Slow
Explorer
Explorer
toprudder wrote:
Old & Slow wrote:
Sounds like a bad idea. Need pictures and testing temps with 90/100% ambient. 62 dBA? Owner's manual states 3' (feet) of space needed around the genset. Too much radiant heat.

The secret is in ducting the air through the enclosure. Simply putting a box over the generator is not a good idea, since the same air will circulate through the generator time after time, getting hotter each time. However, draw the air in one side, blow it through the engine and genhead then exhaust it out the other side - no reason this won't work IF DONE PROPERLY.

I have always been of the opinion that no extra fan would be needed. There is already a fan that draws air in through the engine, and another in the genhead. Duct all of that air properly and it should work fine. The Prof seems to think that will work as well.

In fact, if done correctly, the cooling effect will be more efficient. The Onan in my MH will actually overheat if the door is left removed, since it depends on the ducted airflow being forced through the interior to cool everything.

Bob R.



Bob R,

I have great respect for you because of the many sound contributions you have made to this thread. Every time I notice one of the lumps (for lack of the proper term) on one of my PC cords, I think of you. I notice the addition of this item is still in use today. So, that is proof positive, the need continues. Now, when it come to the cooling needed for a Champion, I have one year of experience in that field. I have constructed numerous types of enclosures for my Champion. I first placed it on the tray of the factory genset compartment of my MH. The OEM genset had failed and was sent to the trash. Now, after numerous posts on this thread, I came to the conclusion that my OWNERS MANUAL is correct. It states do not use this generator in any enclosure or in generator compartment of any RV. This was never brought to my attention on this thread. There must be a good reason the MFG issued this statement. It goes on to state 'No user-preformed modifications, including venting of exhaust and/or cooling ventilation are authorized by the manufacturer' " Also allow 3 feet of clearance on all sides of the generator even while operating the generator outdoors" I found through trial and error the reason for these statements. I thought at one point a enclosure had been constructed that would work successfully only to find later, no deal. I contacted Champion on several issues concerning my trials. Never a response. These open framed gensets as they are constructed are not compatible with any modifications or the MFG would give approval. What do you think, Bob?

Floyd

ol_Bombero-JC
Explorer
Explorer
.

Dickson_Sr_
Explorer
Explorer
professor95 wrote:
Dickson, Sr. wrote:
OK guys...I need help. I need ideas on how and where to get a box made up for my generator. Who to ship it by? Called one place and they want $500 to make a box and ship. Seems a bit much, no?


I'm a little confused here. Are you looking for a box to ship a generator in or someone to make you a box (sound enclosure) for your generator and ship it to you?

If it is the latter, who out there is making and shipping sound enclosure boxes?

While my current sound enclosure works extremely well, if I had it to do over again I would take an entirely different approach. My experiments and research have shown that a simpler and extremely effective enclosure can be made from Hardi-Baker 1/2" cement board (do not use other brands). The board is water proof, fire proof, paintable and (easily) cut with a carbide tooth circular saw. The fuel tank needs to be raised about 3" by sawing off the top of the frame and inserting 1/2" water pipe nipples. The frame is boxed on all sides but the bottom, which is left open with at least 2" of air space all around. The mufler is boxed out of the inner air space. Aluminum "L" is used as the ties for corners that do not meet the genny frame. The genny end is extended with a coffee can to the outside to bring cooler outside air across the windings and AVR.. The air intake on the engine end is ducted to the shroud as in my current design. NO ADDITIONAL FAN IS NEEDED if the bottom perimeter is left open (wheel kit provides this with no additional mods or risers). Cost? About $50 for materials - paint and screws included.

Expect sound levels of 62 dBA with this enclosure - very acceptable in any campground.

Downside is added weight and you must be careful with concret backer board as it can be cracked or broken if hit in unsupported areas.



Actually, the former. I need a box to ship my generator. I've checked the yellow pages and on line. After contacting the $500 shipper. I went on line and checked how much Fedex charges to ship a box with my dimensions and weight, $108. So the box costs $392. Any ideas?

toprudder
Explorer
Explorer
Old & Slow wrote:
Sounds like a bad idea. Need pictures and testing temps with 90/100% ambient. 62 dBA? Owner's manual states 3' (feet) of space needed around the genset. Too much radient heat.

The secret is in ducting the air through the enclosure. Simply putting a box over the generator is not a good idea, since the same air will circulate through the generator time after time, getting hotter each time. However, draw the air in one side, blow it through the engine and genhead then exhaust it out the other side - no reason this won't work IF DONE PROPERLY.

I have always been of the opinion that no extra fan would be needed. There is already a fan that draws air in through the engine, and another in the genhead. Duct all of that air properly and it should work fine. The Prof seems to think that will work as well.

In fact, if done correctly, the cooling effect will be more efficient. The Onan in my MH will actually overheat if the door is left removed, since it depends on the ducted airflow being forced through the interior to cool everything.

Bob R.
Bob, Martha, and Matt.
Tucker, the Toy Poodle
'09 K-Z MXT20, '07 Chevy 2500HD Duramax

Toprudder.com

luv2travelnow
Explorer
Explorer
hi all im new to this topic so dont get mad at me i own one of these champion genny great buy and i have had mine certified for the campground were i camp 65db at 18 feet my ?? is how did you quiet your unit down other than ideling it down thank you in advance

Dan
2006 GMC Long Bed
2001 Jayco 23B HTT
19?? WIFE AS YOUNG AS ALWAY