3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[Oldfordman]

professor95 wrote:
And, what happens to the conventional oil in the mix when temperatures rise beyond their normal flash point? My take is the addition of synthetic to a conventional oil will do little to change the point of breakdown for the conventional part.

Please understand I don't want to turn the generator forum into an oil forum. I just want to get a good feel as to what really is a better lubricant for the small air cooled engines used to power these gensets.

The issue is not the Flash Point where the oil vapors will support combustion but the tendency of an oil to "Coke" or form carbon that can require a chisel to remove.

Regular oil gives up the ghost in the mid 300deg. range, Semi-Synthetics hold out into the High 300- Low 400 Degree range and a full synthetic and provide good lube characteristics in the mid 400 to almost 500 degree range. These are temps that no portable generator will survive even if the oil was totally indestructible.

Synthetic is the BEST, Semi- is BETTER, and regular oil is GOOD.

The key isn't what type of oil that is used, it is CHANGING it in your Genset fairly frequently. There is a little more than ONE-HALF a Quart of oil that has to do all that work. Don't be cheap, change, change, change. I Do so once a trip or every month if I use it regularly. If it is only on Standby, it get's changed every 6 mo's with 30-60 minutes of "exercise" after the change.

Oil is Cheap when it comes to reliability, even the more expensive Synthetic.

[professor95]

ol Bombero-JC wrote:
An interesting statement (his) in that area which would pertain to generators:
"I use partial synthetics in my motorcycles because air-cooled engines are subject to greater temperature variations than water-cooled engines."
JC

Interesting comment.....

I can't help but wonder why he would choose a partial synthetic rather than a full synthetic. From what was written, he doesn't sound like a guy who would be too worried about the extra buck-fifty for an unblended bottle.

Which brings up yet another question (guess I need to do a little Googling' ?). Just what is the ratio of synthetic to conventional in a "blended oil"? ........And, what happens to the conventional oil in the mix when temperatures rise beyond their normal flash point? My take is the addition of synthetic to a conventional oil will do little to change the point of breakdown for the conventional part.

Please understand I don't want to turn the generator forum into an oil forum. I just want to get a good feel as to what really is a better lubricant for the small air cooled engines used to power these gensets.

[MrWizard]

humm, i might start shopping for 'blended oil' again

I used to use blended oil in my (2) wheeled contraptions, had not though about it recently

[ol_Bombero-JC]

Oldfordman -
In re: The Prof's friend Rob and ZDP being *totally* removed or not.

Unfortunately the study was done on diesel oils, and as I'm sure you are aware,
diesels only recently acquired cats (as compared to autos).

(No comparison to specific gasoline engine rated oils and PPM of zinc - although the diesel oils would/should still meet gas engine specs)

As you indicate, even the (new) CJ-4 rated oils (there were only four CJ-4 oils
of the 21 tested) had PPM of Zinc at a low of 947 to a high of 1268.

The CI-4 and CI-4 Plus oils had PPM's with a low of 1028 to a high of 1583.
(Unfortunately, "we" won't find those anymore at the parts store).

The guy contracted for the tests was: "John Martin, formerly -25 years of service - of Lubrizol Corporation."
Then, lots of gee-whiz resume stuff, and lastly,
"he is a recognized lubrication consultant to both the racing (NASCAR and NHRA) and the trucking industries."

Lots of info on base stocks and syn vs mineral vs part syns.
An interesting statement (his) in that area which would pertain to generators:
"I use partial synthetics in my motorcycles because air-cooled engines are subject to greater temperature variations than water-cooled engines."
JC

[MrWizard]

i run 10w30 natural dino oil in the mild winter, 20-50 in the hot summer,

the only wear i've noticed , is with over 2000 hrs, it leaks oil around the crankshaft seals some place.
i normally do an oil change every (2) weeks, just because i run it so much. and I figure, if its bad weather or i'm sick or something interferes, i have some overage time built in.

my champion has more hrs than i ever was able to put on an onan or generac RV genset, had to replace a throttle spring a couple of weeks ago, I contacted champion and they shipped me th spring, i had to trim off the end for the correct lenght and bend the hook in it, took about 10 minutes for the whole job


for the avg RVer or home owner, i think any name brand 10w30 will be find, I don't think synthetic will make an appreciable amount of difference in non-wear or extended life

[SonicLogic]

Thank you Professor for your prompt reply to my inquiry concerning propane conversion of small gasoline engines. I am glad to hear that your practical field experience supports the conclusion that such conversions cause few (if any) adverse effects.

Coincidentally, I have a new Coleman PowerMate (5000W) with a 10HP Briggs engine that I am thinking about converting. The type C kit from US Carb seems to be the best choice.

My intent is to use this generator for the same type of application you described, as a backup power source in the event of a power outage caused by a hurricane. Storing a sizable quantity of propane is certainly safer and easier than storing a like quantity of gasoline.

[Oldfordman]

professor95 wrote:

Well, Rob threw out the subject of zinc (ZDDP) being removed from most motor oils due to problems with the metal causing damage to catalytic converters. Apparently the makers of motor oil have determined that since automotive engines with flat tappets are now no longer made there is no need for the metal.

I used to work for the company that owned the patent on ZDDP (Hint: they were a West Coast Co that made Purple Motor Oil and it wasn't Royal Purple).

ZDDP works as an anti-wear agent by interfering with the welding of asperaties in the metal (the little sharp spots on a surface) and thus the "galling" of the journal surfaces.

There are several keys here. One is that the amount of ZDDP is REDUCED, not eliminated in oils of today. Two is that the additive works best when the engine is new and the surfaces are their roughest. Three is that many HD engine manufactures have increased the size of the sumps to allow for more TOTAL ZDDP in the oil. Cut the amount per quart but double the number of quarts(?).

As for the Champion Generators, these engines are not operating under anywhere near the loads and speeds that the "HotRodders" are working with. I bought a Titan Pickup in 2004 that puts out 305 HP (BTW it has a 7 Quart Sump). The "HotRodders" are pulling over 800 HP from that enging. Now THAT's a lot of load on the bearings and cam lobes. On that note, With the exception of GM, very few engines use the old traditional Cam,tappet, push rod system. Most are Overhead Cams and Roller Tappets are NOT used. The cam pushed directly on the valve stem cap, just like on the face of the old tappet.

As for the loss of the ZDDP, there are other additives coming into the marketplace for Oil Mfr's to use.

Last offering. To increase mileage in many new engines the manufacturers are resorting to polishing many internal parts. Nissan for example, in their 5.6 Titan Engine polishes the cam lobes and journals in order to reduce friction in the valve train. Less Friction equals more HP and better mileage.

Just my contribution to the discussion.

[ol_Bombero-JC]

professor95 wrote:

ol Bombero-JC wrote:
Bottom line - (at least for diesel folks - maybe gen owners too)
the "old" CI-4 and +4 oils are (may) still be out there if you look
hard enough.

So, are you implying (agreeing) that we should be using these oils in our engines?

Seems the higher/est zinc content would be beneficial, so -
assuming a 15w 40 oil is appropriate weight for the gens - AND - if you can find the above *without* the CJ-4 rating . . . Yes.

But . . .
Unfortunate "kicker": The ONLY "non" CJ-4 I have been able to locate
is Valvoline Premium Blue Classic . . . . smallest quantity avail
is 5 gallon pail!

Lots of oil sitting around if you only use it for the generator, LOL !
JC

[professor95]

ol Bombero-JC wrote:
Bottom line - (at least for diesel folks - maybe gen owners too)
the "old" CI-4 and +4 oils are (may) still be out there if you look
hard enough.

So, are you implying (agreeing) that we should be using these oils in our engines?

[professor95]

SonicLogic wrote:
Professor, I am curious as to your satisfaction with the generator that you converted for use with propane. Knowledgeable mechanics to which I have spoken say that converting a small air cooled gasoline engine for use with propane is very problematic.

They say that propane has a slower flame spread rate than gasoline so the timing needs to be advanced to compensate. They also say that propane does not provide any induction cooling in the engine or any valve lubrication (as does gasoline) so the cylinder and valves run hotter.

In short, I’ve been told that propane conversions do indeed work, but to do it right you need to put in a better valves, harder valve seats and advance the timing in addition to changing the carburetion.

I have also been told that bi-fuel generators are more expensive mainly because they have the aforementioned added features built-in.

Does this coincide with your experience?

No. I have not experienced any of the so called negatives you mentioned or others such as lower power.

That said, the problems cited may indeed exist. The question is how serious are those concerns, and if they will indeed have a negative impact upon a small air cooled engine used for intermittent power back-up.

Two of my LPG conversions, the 5500W Generac with a 10HP Briggs engine and the 7,500W Champion with a 13HP Chonda engine, have performed for many hours with no apparent failure. The Briggs once ran a full 10 days with no shutdown after Isabel hit our area.

US Carb has completed and supported kits for thousands of LPG conversions on small engines. Do a Google on failures from US Carb kits and see what you find.

Coming from a community of dedicated "scholars", I am very familiar with research that differentiates between the outcomes of changing parameters in engineering designs and tests. I have also learned that many times these results are trumpeted and overstated - often beyond reason. And yes, they are often ignored in the interest of economics. If one were exclusively in the business of building gasoline engines and providing gasoline as a fuel, I would venture to say they would undoubtedly exploit the problems of using LPG. On the other hand, companies that have an interest in LPG fuel systems would tout the obvious benefits of such a conversion.

Somewhere along the line we must sift through all the alleged facts and separate them from fiction and preference.

[ol_Bombero-JC]

.

[SonicLogic]

Professor, I am curious as to your satisfaction with the generator that you converted for use with propane. Knowledgeable mechanics to which I have spoken say that converting a small air cooled gasoline engine for use with propane is very problematic.

They say that propane has a slower flame spread rate than gasoline so the timing needs to be advanced to compensate. They also say that propane does not provide any induction cooling in the engine or any valve lubrication (as does gasoline) so the cylinder and valves run hotter.

In short, I’ve been told that propane conversions do indeed work, but to do it right you need to put in a better valves, harder valve seats and advance the timing in addition to changing the carburetion.

I have also been told that bi-fuel generators are more expensive mainly because they have the aforementioned added features built-in.

Does this coincide with your experience?

[professor95]

!

pritch272 wrote:
One more question, which oil is recommended for both the break-in and after? I've read a ka-zillion posts, and Prof noted he might switch to Kendall GT-1, would that be a full or blended synthetic? Would that work for break-in or after?

Sorry if this has been asked and answered, but I don't recall having seen it yet. Oh, and I'm talking about the C46540...

Thanks-

Champion Power Equipment does not advise a particular brand of oil. The recomendation in their manuals can be found here.

Many on this forum insist on synthetic oil, others use conventional dinosaur blended oils.

My personal preference is a synthetic oil due to their superior high temperature oxidation resistance, high film strength, very low tendancy to form deposits, stable viscosity base, and low temperature flow characteristics.

In the past, I have frequently used Mobil 1 5W30 synthetic. But, after learning that it is void of zinc, I may switch to a synthetic that still contains zinc. They are all about the same price, so the switch would be no big deal.

Mr Wizard has more hours on his Champion than any other user I know of on this forum since he runs it on a daily basis. Based on his success, you may want to wait and see what his reply is and follow the same procedure. It is hard to argue with success.

[pritch272]

One more question, which oil is recommended for both the break-in and after? I've read a ka-zillion posts, and Prof noted he might switch to Kendall GT-1, would that be a full or blended synthetic? Would that work for break-in or after?

Sorry if this has been asked and answered, but I don't recall having seen it yet. Oh, and I'm talking about the C46540...

Thanks-

[pritch272]

Thanks Professor, TSC it will be.